Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Duckle
Weird, I wanted Uplifted Spirits, Font of Life, and Overflowing Mist on my gear for healing, but instead I have Elusive Footwork, Fit to Burst, and Boiling Brew. As you know, those three do absolutely nothing for mistweaver, while the former three do nothing for brewmaster. It would cost me hundreds to thousands of gold to spec swap even once per day, and since I do m+ as brewmaster and any raiding as almost exclusively mistweaver, that's a pretty frequent occurrence. It would actually save an insane amount of gold to just have a 2nd monk, though I wouldn't do it personally.

There's also the part where I'd even have equal ilvl azerite pieces pretty quick, since azerite over 340 might as well not exist despite my 370 ilvl.

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


People regularly boosted new 110s at the beginning of Legion when they didn't get optimal Legendaries, and tried again.
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Duckle
Weird, I wanted Uplifted Spirits, Font of Life, and Overflowing Mist on my gear for healing, but instead I have Elusive Footwork, Fit to Burst, and Boiling Brew. As you know, those three do absolutely nothing for mistweaver, while the former three do nothing for brewmaster. It would cost me hundreds to thousands of gold to spec swap even once per day, and since I do m+ as brewmaster and any raiding as almost exclusively mistweaver, that's a pretty frequent occurrence. It would actually save an insane amount of gold to just have a 2nd monk, though I wouldn't do it personally.

There's also the part where I'd even have equal ilvl azerite pieces pretty quick, since azerite over 340 might as well not exist despite my 370 ilvl.

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.

If we're talking 340 gear, maybe not. Those can drop from 10 dungeons, LFR, even WQs in some cases.

BUT if we upgrade it and say literally any item beyond 340, then ABSOLUTELY. If each spec benefits the most from its spec-specific trait and you want to jack up the cost to reforge, it is highly more beneficial to have two monks (or druids or what-have-you) to serve in two separate roles because the possibility is there for your tank and your healer to both get helms that can use their spec-specific traits. On one character, I can get a 370 helm, sure, but I'm only going to be able to use it for balance and not guardian.
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Duckle
Weird, I wanted Uplifted Spirits, Font of Life, and Overflowing Mist on my gear for healing, but instead I have Elusive Footwork, Fit to Burst, and Boiling Brew. As you know, those three do absolutely nothing for mistweaver, while the former three do nothing for brewmaster. It would cost me hundreds to thousands of gold to spec swap even once per day, and since I do m+ as brewmaster and any raiding as almost exclusively mistweaver, that's a pretty frequent occurrence. It would actually save an insane amount of gold to just have a 2nd monk, though I wouldn't do it personally.

There's also the part where I'd even have equal ilvl azerite pieces pretty quick, since azerite over 340 might as well not exist despite my 370 ilvl.

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


Very nice of you to delete my post that didn't break the rules. Okay, the point he was making was the sheer amount of gold needed to respec his 340+ gear isn't worth it when he wants to play another spec. Again, azerite armor in M+ should have been implemented week 1
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Bearpunch
09/27/2018 11:57 AMPosted by Lore
3 weeks into a raid tier/mythic+ season is a bit early to make hard conclusions of how difficult it will be to acquire alternate sets over the next few months.


Stop. Making. Us. Pay. To. Test. Your. Game.


This. So much this. Letting known half baked game mechanics go live should not be the habits of one of the world's premier game makers. I feel burned for pre-purchasing this expansion. I'm going to need you guys to show me something positive to convince me to ever pre-purchase again.
Can we not ignore the real problem? Alts are important and all.

But traits are nowhere near tuned well enough.

We've gone from there being a 30% difference between traits to 20%. That's not good enough. And if Blizzard thinks it is that's not acceptable.
09/27/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Calfurion
If Lore keeps responding like this, they’ll have to do another AMA on Reddit


I would rather have an actual developer respond and interact with us, NOT ION, but someone who communicates well.

Remember Lore can't change a thing in the game, he just relays information he gets from the developers. What he says may or may not just be an opinion like every player in the game.

It would be nice to have actual developers to interact with.
09/27/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Fiascoh
If I wanted to play brewmaster or mistweaver right now, I would be significantly better off by making a 2nd monk. Is this really the design you were going for?

Not at all, and I'm curious why you feel that's the case. It isn't in my experience as someone who is currently playing a tri-spec monk.


Lore/Blizzard/entity behind the curtain,
Responses like this simply enrage your dedicated players. This whole thread (and the ongoing conversation across the community) is not asking for - nor does it deserve - the kind of half-hearted, hand-wavey, ignorant response this represents.

Look at your data. Out of all weekly mythic+ chests, how many azerite pieces have dropped? I'm looking for numerator/denominator.

And that is only the FIRST issue we have with this system. IF you actually get an azerite piece, all of the other issues enumerated by players come to the fore.

I've loved Blizzard since 1996. BFA is a total catastrophe. Azerite must go.
09/27/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Madalot
With RNG? maybe. If he gets luckier on his other monk than his main why not right?

Wait, I'm not trying to defend Blizzard or anything, but what is blocking this very same luck to act on the first monk?

Do you really think that creating a second monk to farm is better than just do it on the first monk? This is some weird voodoo.

The system may be RNG intensive but this argument is weird. Farming on the first monk / creating a second monk and farm too - both will result in /played for the Blue Lords. Don't you see?
Been playing since vanilla when I was a kid.

I've subbed and re-subbed multiple times.
This time I am unsubbing for a long time unless there is a massive overhaul with your company mentality.
Your corporate structure is horrible. You must have had a few heads of departments leave who had the original idea in mind. This is going to take a toll on your profits and I hope you learn from your lesson a year from now when you finally release an enjoyable story of N'Zoth

Pce out.
Lore you're arguing that farming multiple pieces won't be hard but we still need multiple sets for everything when Blizzard argued that was the official reason gear swapping was removed from M+. It's punishing to have to swap gear like that. You're telling me I should be happy that I have a 370 piece with a good Azerite traits for DPS but I should be wary of respeccing those traits for tanking, yet at the same time I have to use that same piece without any useful traits as a healer because it's automatically better than my 340 with healing traits just because of the ilvl increase? This makes no sense.
Hey, Shaman here. Just wanted to let ya know enhancement exists and we need help *walks on by*
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Duckle
Weird, I wanted Uplifted Spirits, Font of Life, and Overflowing Mist on my gear for healing, but instead I have Elusive Footwork, Fit to Burst, and Boiling Brew. As you know, those three do absolutely nothing for mistweaver, while the former three do nothing for brewmaster. It would cost me hundreds to thousands of gold to spec swap even once per day, and since I do m+ as brewmaster and any raiding as almost exclusively mistweaver, that's a pretty frequent occurrence. It would actually save an insane amount of gold to just have a 2nd monk, though I wouldn't do it personally.

There's also the part where I'd even have equal ilvl azerite pieces pretty quick, since azerite over 340 might as well not exist despite my 370 ilvl.

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


Yes, absolutely. You are not going to go very far in 340 gear. If I just wanted to change specs to do a heroic dungeon or normal, or even heroic raid, then sure, I can easily play brewmaster or mistweaver right now. And I do. I can do basic, easy, very simple content in any of the monk specs. Hooray.

If I had to swap specs for mythic raiding or mythic+? There is no way. It is just not possible right now without insane luck or waiting months to obtain a sufficient set of azerite gear for each spec, or if I was willing to spending tens of thousands of gold, possibly more, every single week.

If I had a 2nd monk, I could easily bypass all those issues, as the 2nd monk would have their own m+ chest, can run normal/heroic separately. Basically gives me 2x the chances of everything, but without having to worry about a 2nd spec.

In Legion, swapping was definitely bad, but I COULD farm AP if I really, really wanted to. In BFA, swapping is terrible, and I can't do a single thing about it.
09/27/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Lambach
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


Lore. you cant farm them. Thats the problem. I have to make a new monk to get my raid lock outs or 2nd shot at weekly chest. There is no way to farm azerite gear.


Well you can kind of farm 340's, will it feel good wearing 340's while your other itens are 370-400? No. But you can still farm them...
Trait balance/tuning isn't the problem. Upgrading from a 340 chest with ideal traits to the 385 chest I will inevitably replace it with that has like an 80% chance to have the wrong traits? That's a feel bad even if numerically those traits are balanced in a way that I'm better off. Doubly so when they aren't even powerful enough for it to matter if I haven't unlocked them yet. The core of this problem is that there are no *options* presented by the gear - only generic consolation prizes for having the wrong spec-based trait.

Complexity of damage procs isn't the problem. We are stuck simming because we aren't given enough information in trait tooltips to make informed decisions without relying on outside analysis. First of all, that doesn't mean you shouldn't design damage procs that stack up and go off - it means you have to clearly communicate the expected rate that it will go off, or at least whether it scales with AoE, there needs to be more information. Secondly, no matter how "interesting" you make a generic damage proc trait it is no substitute for something that meaningfully interacts with class abilities which is the complexity we are sorely lacking without legendaries.

Expecting players to not min/max their traits is absolutely farcical. The reforging system's *stated intent* is to force players to collect a second set of gear if they change spec. Ignoring that this is unfortunate backtracking and more of the same problem Legion legendaries had at launch... Azerite gear is supposed to drop frequently enough for this to be even sort of possible, right? So why is literally 80% of high level Azerite gear only available from M+ weekly caches? Why is there only one spec trait per raid piece if these are supposed to be a superior source of that gear?

The solutions being offered won't address the core problems. Nothing put forth by Blizzard thus far is going to instill the missing depth or cure the clunkiness that BFA has brought to many classes. So you'd better settle in on something you like mechanically now, because it's not getting better until 9.0. That's why my bear is still 110 and my warrior is only used for casually grinding Dark Iron rep.
Blizzard is so stubborn. They just cant accept that their attempt at making yet another "re-inventing the wheel" system doesnt work for the second expansion in a row and is substantially worse than the legendary system in legion.
09/27/2018 11:57 AMPosted by Lore
Holy hell this thread went places. Okay, couple quick things:

1) I've mentioned elsewhere that we're looking at Azerite armor availability. 3 weeks into a raid tier/mythic+ season is a bit early to make hard conclusions of how difficult it will be to acquire alternate sets over the next few months. But we're hearing that feedback and keeping a close eye on it. Availability in mythic+ particularly is a regular topic of conversation. I've talked about that before so I won't rehash everything here, but we're looking into it.

2) I noticed a few posts that seemed to believe that Azerite traits are randomized when a piece drops. They're not; each piece of gear has a preset assortment of traits to choose from. Most of y'all seem to understand that already, I just wanted to toss it out there for anyone who may not.


So basically you want us to have multiple gear sets for multiple different pieces of content and class specs (raid/pve/PvP/specs), but admit that the azerite gear is hard to farm?

So y’alls reason for creating increased costs in az refrorging is so that we’d need multiple gear sets, but admit that it’s difficult to get multiple gear sets. So are you basically saying only do one type of content well, or be punished by our system for trying to enjoy more of our content?

Also your alternative is to choose traits that are good for multiple specs/content types? However if you want player to take traits that are equally average across all Specs and content types... why have class based traits on all gear? Clearly you should only be taking spec specific traits if you only ever intend to do one spec and one style of content;

So why not just make each piece have 3 neutral traits and one spec specific that’s chosen by loot specialization so that you can choose the best neutral trait to fit all your needs rather than needing to aim for pieces of gear for each role and spec?

Like... the way the system is set y’all dont want people optimizing based on what content they want to enjoy (which by the way; y’all still haven’t explained why you don’t want people to change their gameplay based on content... like... what’s the motivation? People having to much control over being able to enjoy each piece of content to the fullest?) but you also don’t want us to target gear and expect that we will have multiple gear sets for each game play type but shouldn’t need to target gear for those types of content because all of the gear should be roughly equal so... why should we need multiple gear sets? So that we can specialize in something that you don’t want us to have to specialize in since y’all feel we shouldn’t need to feel like some gear is better than others based on traits?

If it seems like I’m talking nonsense, it’s because the goals y’all are setting (all traits being equal give or take 0.5% so we don’t have to target specific pieces) in all content (because if they aren’t equal in all content types it would mean we’d have to target gear that was good across all content types; thus making the goal of not needing to target gear irrelevant) then why even have a AZ gear tied to traits in the first place? Why not just have changable az traits based on which traits you’ve unlocked, let people change any az gear to those traits once they’ve unlocked them in that slot but then only charge them for a reforge once they’ve locked in a new trait on the gear, so your only farming traits once but ilvl upgrades stay relevant and new gear can be used for offspecs and alternative content?

Like what are yalls goals and reasons for including az traits, why are y’all punishing players for wanting to optimize, and what is the aim of people needing to grab new gear sets based on content if you want all traits to be more or less equal? I just don’t get it.
I don't want to eventually carry around 20 azerites in my bags all xpac.

I don't want to go to reforger every time I want to tank or heal on my alt.

I don't want to sim 10x a day because there's so many passive proc traits. How am I supposed to know if a random dinosaur does more dps than a agi proc or a bolt of lightning?
I'm not a theorycrafter or numbers geek but as a casual I can only state that the current convoluted system is demotivating and not fun.

Others have stated how complicated it can be to compare/sim gear, the prospect of regrinding for those striving for BIS, the prospect of hoarding to compensate for future yo-yo buffs/nerfs of traits, people who wish to reforge per encounter and I just try to get a vague ranking of what to use and that is not always clear.

At this point I'm almost randomly choosing traits to avoid the headache. I can't believe that was the original design intention. Was it?
"I guess this sounds ok" (shrug click, never bother to look at this again)

In contrast to the reasons they pruned spells, removed the original gear reforging, nuked the Artifact trees (and I guess the original talent system) they sure have introduced a quagmire.

I have enjoyed previous forms of endgame character progression but this is a sprawling mess.
Reposting from second thread that was locked cause relevant:

From Lore: "Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less."

Wait wait wait. Players are telling you that not being able to switch traits without paying 20k gold is not fun, and serves no gameplay purpose. And you wanna restrict it more?

You are telling me that if I play Prot on my pally, then want to swap and go Holy or Ret for BGs or Arenas, i should be penalized? I should not be able to take the correct traits?

That to me is restricting content. Thats more or less reducing a class to a spec. It also makes no sense.
This is copied from my response in the thread that was locked before this thread got extended:

All I learned from the post was that Blizzard will actually not change any of their design around Azerite, especially one of the biggest contentions I have, the regrinding of the traits. There's plenty of other things wrong, but to be told "That's just going to be a downside we'll just have to live with" is disrespectful. Maybe you think I'd just stick around and accept unlocking the thing I literally just had (If I'm lucky enough to get the same traits that I want). What sort of morally bankrupt person thought by resetting the grind every tier constituted content? Constituted growth? I don't think you're stupid, I think you intentionally built it this way. And more to the point, you're not interested in changing it, which is potentially the more insidious of the two realizations.

I am a very long time player, after I opened my box yesterday and ran the world boss for the 5th time of no loot (counting the arathi WB) I unsubbed. I'm not dealing with RNG on top of a cycle of losing and gaining my SAME TRAITS for the entire expansion. That's your core system. You messed up your core progression system and now basically just shrug your shoulders. So I guess I'll do the same, I've lost faith completely in Blizzard as a company and you've lost a customer.

You stopped asking when we cancel our sub why we did so, I now understand why, because our feedback doesn't actually matter to you.

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