Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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09/27/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Jibrille
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


I just want to not have to carry around a huge sack of gear. Keeping track of which piece goes with which set is a huge pain. Sometimes I'll get an "upgrade" and realize that it's better for one spec and not the other. Then I'll have to set that one to, say, holy, and then my existing "holy" piece of gear may get reset for ret. I have to go run calculations on everything to figure out which one is the best option for which spec (and it sounds like in a few weeks that may change!) I've had to reforge pieces multiple times.

It just feels BAD. I spend most of my time doing dailies and such in my Ret gear, and then do instances, raids, etc. with my Holy set. I'm basically running around with Holy attributes in my Ret gear on most pieces because I can only get one decent Azerite piece for that slot, and on other slots I have 4-5 choices and all are crap and all are fixed to one spec.

I can imagine this would be even worse if you liked to heal, dps, AND tank.

Every other recent expansion has been multi-spec friendly; all the gear STILL has +INT, +STR, etc. on it. Why can't it switch abilities depending on spec just like the gear switches stats?

I won't even start on the new non-friendly WQ rewards of 2-H weapons with INT, or the 1H weapons with no INT. I'm rocking blues on both specs because the 1H epic quest reward of the day is tank or DPS only.


This, by and large, is my problem. In the past, you get new gear, you see if it has the best stats for you, and you equip it and feel good. Now, I get new gear, I go to a wowhead guide to see if the new azerite trait is better than my old for my main spec(healing). If it is, ok, equip it. If not, check for my dps spec trait and see if that's better. If it is, ok, equip it. If not, goes right into the scrapping machine. This says nothing about the idea of wondering if that 355 with the worst trait I get off a world boss is in fact better than the 340 I got from an emissary or not. It's just.....not a fun system.

There's absolutely no reason these traits can't switch based on what spec you are, since the armor stats do. Why even bother having them switch stats if you're much weaker because you don't have any traits boosting your dps? This problem is felt even more because of world mob scaling with your ilvl. Yep, my healing spec is a good 10 ilvls higher than my dps spec, so I get to take even longer killing world mobs in my dps gear on my dps spec. There's no common sense at all with this system, that's the core problem.

And yes, Mythics themselves drop too much gear. I wonder how long I'm going to be saddled with a 325 weapon since weapons popping up in WQs are exceptionally rare, and coining a mythic + is pointless because every instance has to drop a piece of gear for every slot? Why?
09/27/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Hushkawnek

I can see where they are going with this. Basically because there is a lockout, if you wanted to get gear for 3 specs, but can only get 1 drop (correct me if I'm wrong please) a week at best, then it's actually faster to have 3 toons, one of each spec. Ergo - toon 1 would be farming tank gear, toon 2 would be farming dps gear, and toon 3 would be farming healing gear. Otherwise you're stuck at farming 1 set of gear, say tank, and at best using "hand me down" lower level gear for the other specs, or waiting a very long time to get gear for the off specs. So say it takes 4 weeks average to get gear for each spec. On 1 toon you're looking at 3 months, on 3 you can do it in 1 month presuming you have the time to farm on 3 toons.

Hope that help you see their POV.

this. if i don't get good traits that week it would be more beneficial to level another character of the same class for another chance at them than continue to pray weekly. i have a max level dk and paladin but i also have another 93 paladin and 110 dk that i'm seriously considering pushing to max because my lack of good traits
I love with all the feedback on multiple platforms and how negative it is, the blues are still trying to force !@#$ on people that they don't like, or don't want. Maybe pay attention to what your paying customers are saying and not trying to beat a dead horse might work a bit better, eh?
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?


The problem is 340 is not an acceptable benchmark, that is LFR item level. Not even normal raid mode item level. None of the end game content is based on that item level.
I don’t like the idea of having multiple pieces of Azerite gear for multiple specs. The idea of punishing me for wanting to play a different spec by being against reforging seems hurtful. Tier was way better since it swapped to whatever your spec was. I don’t like the Azerite system at all.
09/27/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Dethkrik
That feeling when you spend 20 minutes writing a response only to have Lore lock the thread and extend this one...

Yeah that happened to me, haha.

TL:DR was I've been playing this game since Wrath, most of that time at a Cutting Edge or equivalent level, and I've never been more frustrated/confused about what is a good trait, what isn't, what I should stack, and what I shouldn't. How does stacking a trait even work? More procs? Harder procs? 2 independent proc chances?

In regards to stacking barring any changes (just to help you out) the general rule appears to be:
1) +X damage/stat stacks, so 2x +1000 damage will stack as 2000, whether it's from a proc or just flat damage, same with 2x +100 crit means a total of 200 crit
2) +Y sec duration does not stack (same with -Y CD), so 2 1 sec increased duration means 1 second duration, not 2 seconds; also -1 sec on Z ability cool down is still -1 sec regardless of how many you have stacked
3) in regards to procs, stacking the same trait does not appear to increase proc rate, only the resulting stack (see #1)

Hope that helps. Of course take this with a grain of salt as there may be changes I have not heard of or even exceptions.
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Duckle
Weird, I wanted Uplifted Spirits, Font of Life, and Overflowing Mist on my gear for healing, but instead I have Elusive Footwork, Fit to Burst, and Boiling Brew. As you know, those three do absolutely nothing for mistweaver, while the former three do nothing for brewmaster. It would cost me hundreds to thousands of gold to spec swap even once per day, and since I do m+ as brewmaster and any raiding as almost exclusively mistweaver, that's a pretty frequent occurrence. It would actually save an insane amount of gold to just have a 2nd monk, though I wouldn't do it personally.

There's also the part where I'd even have equal ilvl azerite pieces pretty quick, since azerite over 340 might as well not exist despite my 370 ilvl.

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


# of CHANCES a week at 340 Azerite gear: 10 from M+, currently 3 from LFR, 0-3 from emissaries, 1 from M+ cache if you only do a 2-3 key (14-17 total CHANCES)

# of CHANCES a week at 355 Azerite gear: 0-1 depending on armor type from the world boss, 5 from Normal Uldir if you full clear, 1 from M+ cache if you only do a 4-6 key (6-7 total CHANCES)

# of CHANCES a week at 370 Azerite gear: 5 from Heroic Uldir if you full clear, 1 from M+ cache if you only do a 7-9 key (6 total CHANCES)

# of CHANCES a week at 385 Azerite gear: 5 from Mythic Uldir if you full clear, 1 from M+ cache if you only do a 10+ key (6 total CHANCES)

Every 3 or so weeks we get an additional CHANCE at a 370 piece, and ~20 chances at a 340 from the Warfront rares.

PVP gives you an additional chance at an Azerite item from the weekly cache ilvl dependant on rating, and technically you can farm it limitlessly from end of match rewards but they are extremely rare, in just under 100 3's matches this season I have received 1 peice of Azerite gear.

If you still haven't figured it out yet, the playerbase is swimming in 340 gear, but 90% of it is not the traits you want. The real issues start showing up when you are trying to get higher ilvl Azerite gear, where your chances to get them become extremely limited. It feels really terrible to be wearing all 370+ gear and be stuck using 340 or even 355 Azerite gear.

You guys solution to this is to just nerf all good traits, which is just a terrible solution. Strong traits ARE A GOOD THING. But people want to be able to target farm for those traits. Attacking the problem by making all traits equal does nothing except make the system a borefest. Remember, this system is supposed to replace artifact weapon traits, set bonuses, and legendaries and it isn't even come REMOTELY close to do so right now, and the more you nerf good traits, the further away it gets from doing that.

As for the topic of reforging, it does nothing but limit people being able to play multiple specs in order to fill in different roles for there groups. Sure people at the extreme end will possibly reforge constantly on a fight by fight basis, but that is not something that 99% of the playerbase would do. The 99% simply doesn't want to be punished for having to reforge from DPS to healing to help out there friends in a dungeon or fill in for someone who had to miss a raid one day, or have to respec for PVP because it is a vastly different playstyle than PVE. Your response of telling us to JUST PUT TOGETHER MULTIPLE SETS was one of the most out of touch responses I have ever seen from a Blue.
09/27/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Treeba
I don't honestly see how it would be easier to level a second character. I guess simply for the fact you have so few shots at getting azerite beyond 340 a week?


Yep.

If you end up wanting to do multiple roles, either swapping up roles, or PVPing versus PVE content, then you really only get ONE SHOT per week via the Weekly chest for Azerite pieces that are 355 and up. And, of course, doing Uldir.

It's simpler and easier to just boost a second character, level them up to 120 and then they get a completely second shot at their own Chest, effectively doubling your chance of getting a good 355/370/385 Azerite piece.

People did it in Legion, if their first 2 Leggos weren't the ones they needed. Just make a new character.
09/27/2018 01:13 PMPosted by Sietten
Hey hey hey guys hey, do you guys remember when way back Ion Hazzikostas said Azerite Traits would allow customization and that there weren't going to be any absolute picks?
He lied, like he lied in many other things.


This. Basically.
09/27/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Duckle
Weird, I wanted Uplifted Spirits, Font of Life, and Overflowing Mist on my gear for healing, but instead I have Elusive Footwork, Fit to Burst, and Boiling Brew. As you know, those three do absolutely nothing for mistweaver, while the former three do nothing for brewmaster. It would cost me hundreds to thousands of gold to spec swap even once per day, and since I do m+ as brewmaster and any raiding as almost exclusively mistweaver, that's a pretty frequent occurrence. It would actually save an insane amount of gold to just have a 2nd monk, though I wouldn't do it personally.

There's also the part where I'd even have equal ilvl azerite pieces pretty quick, since azerite over 340 might as well not exist despite my 370 ilvl.

And you believe the process of leveling and gearing a 2nd monk would be more efficient than farming those 340s on your main?

To be clear I'm not arguing - legitimately trying to make sure I understand this feedback.


This isnt about 340s, its about 355 and 370 and 385 were the pool of available azerite gear is limited.
09/27/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Fiascoh
If I wanted to play brewmaster or mistweaver right now, I would be significantly better off by making a 2nd monk. Is this really the design you were going for?

Not at all, and I'm curious why you feel that's the case. It isn't in my experience as someone who is currently playing a tri-spec monk.


I'm curious as to why, with all the feedback you're receiving, mostly in the negative aspects, you're still trying to push this out like it's a positive thing? People are telling you why and you're blatantly sticking your fingers in your ears. The !@#$ are we paying you for?
Hey Lore!

I just want to make sure you see that my husband and a friend of his both unsubbed directly because of your responses in this thread :)

(I had already unsubbed previously, but would gladly unsub again if I could)

Have a KILLER day, sir!
Just wanted to add my quick 2-cents, although with how quickly this thread seems to be moving I'm sure it'll get unnoticed or buried.

I'm also currently playing a tri-spec monk since I'd rather just fill for my mythic raid team, and I'm having very little issues with gear. As Lore suggested, I actually have FOUR different Azerite shoulders (two for tanking; one is survivability and the other is damage). I only have one helm and chest at the moment, because they're both Uldir pieces and I'm happy to take Laser Matrix on both. Sure, I lose a little bit on the 2nd tier traits for MW, but they work pretty well for both BM/WW and I don't mind waiting until I get another piece to take a 2nd tier MW trait. I also don't mind passing equal-level pieces to other guildies if it's a bigger upgrade for them.

I do sympathize with people who aren't having good luck getting Azerite pieces, since that definitely seems to be a pain point, but I do think that if that point is fixed, having ludicrous reforge costs to encourage having multiple pieces is fine. Don't exactly understand the intent behind that compromise, but I don't think it's that big of a deal or that huge of an ask once availability is increased.
Azerite is such a boring cluster!@#$ that i actually completely ignore it. I select which ever seems most interesting and move on. I guess what will probably be the best and since I'm a tank thats pretty cut and dry. Trying to get further into it then that is a nightmare of annoyance and the entire system really pisses me off because I'm normally very into these kinds of systems but they handled it so poorly it's just one big turn off for me.

They might as well not even exist.
09/27/2018 01:20 PMPosted by Argenten
I don't think it's that big of a deal or that huge of an ask once availability is increased.


09/27/2018 01:20 PMPosted by Argenten
once availability is increased


09/27/2018 01:20 PMPosted by Argenten
availability
09/27/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Whynotboth
Very few suggestions for improving this system. Let me take a stab.

Make traits be items you loot/craft/whatever.
Make azerite armor have sockets of specific types.
You socket the armor with the traits.

So an example armor has, say, Type A socket in outer ring, Type B middle ring, and a Type C inner. That type corresponds to the type of trait you could socket there. Let's pretend Type A is moderate throughput, Type B is defensive/utility, and Type C is lower throughput. Raiding, M+, and rated PvP could give armor with an Type S socket which are baller (like Archive of the Titans or Battlefield Focus).

So now players would try to find the right combination sockets on the armor, which would be fairly easy to do, while they also collect their favorite traits to socket. We could remove reforging entirely, because it's much easier to get a "good" azerite armor piece now, and the grind comes down to getting the best traits.

This doesn't solve every problem with the system, but it sounds FUN to me, and is more dynamic than current you-get-what-you-get traits on armor.
sounds like glyphs
I want to get my opinion out there since it seems there are eyes on this right now.

1. I dont dislike the idea of the azurite gear.

2. I HATE you changing it all the time. Like I'm sure you've read this 1000 times now, If its all the same and doesnt change your rotation or play feel WHY ARE YOU EVEN MAKING IT???? Just delete the whole thing if the goal is for all these passive traits to end up in the same place.

3. I kinda feel like my class is getting balanced based off this broken thing that better players than me can do on mythic Zul. We went from top tier, then nerf, above average, then nerf, average, and nerf again? You can hardly find a rogue on the top at all anymore if you exclude Zul. As a somewhat casual player I don't want balance to be done around what Method and Limit are doing. Thats not what you should be doing IMO.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.


this is not only incredibly insulting, but this paragraph really demonstrates how disconnected your actions as developers are from the playerbase.

I understand the design goals, but when you set a restrictive system up like this, you cant then radically rebalance things without giving a free reset.

I remember back when we had talent trees we'd get free refunds of talents any time a balance change as done. This needs to happen with azerite traits.

Please pull your head out of your !@# and think of the players, not your investors, who want us online 24/7 farming gold to afford outrageously priced moneysinks.

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