Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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09/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lore
As a quick aside: I understand and appreciate that many of you are frustrated about the system. That's why I'm here - to get a better understanding of what exactly is frustrating people so I can present that feedback to the development team.

Step 1 of that process is explaining what our viewpoint is so that you guys can present counter-arguments. If your response to that explanation is to roll your eyes and make snarky comments about how dumb I am, that's fine, but it's really not helping make the game any better.

I get the need to vent, but if y'all could keep the personal attacks and memes to a minimum that'd make it a hell of a lot easier for me to actually help make the video game more fun for you.


The traits should not be homogenized. There should be flavor and a clear winner. The biggest problem is with the farmability. We can’t target pieces. Put them on m+ loot tables. It would still be 370 so we count get bis from spamming m+.

I watched you back in the tank spot days. Sorry you are the medium here. They need to take feedback into consideration. I’m a corporate goon lawyer, I know sometimes you have to do what your told. The problem is not taking feedback from the players and it has gone too far. it’s time to take a step back apologize to your customers and fix the game.

Make more traits on gear the longer the system is in place; make some better than others. I.e more tiers (hope this was the plan). Make grinding AP the same rewards based on time spent. We should not be forced into doing any content we don’t like. Make expeditions rewarding. State what the goal of warfronts are. I miss wintergrasp and Tol barad. You could have rehashed/ reskinned that and everyone would be happy.

Literally Blizzard could announce tomorrow that they are rereleasing wotlk and that we could all get 1 level 70 boost in exhange for the deletion of all of our bfa level toons and items and 99% of the player base would do it. That’s a problem.
09/27/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Revren
09/27/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Calfurion
...

Please ignore the trolls. This issue boils down to the fact that there isn’t a way to farm the top Azerite traits.

I need more haste? Let me just see what M+ dungeons drop a ring I want. Need a better trinket? Let me see which one to run.

Want to upgrade my 340 Azerite piece? Pray to God almighty that I get a decent 385 Azerite piece from my mythic cache. Before the Streaking Stars nerf, my 385 Azerite helmet was only a 190 DPS increase over my 340 helmet. That just feels absolutely miserable.

Please add a way to farm high level Azerite pieces we want or a way to change the Azerite traits to ones we actually want. You can add a vendor that sells an item bought with Sanguicells that accomplishes this (since they’re basically absolutely useless unless you’re a certain profession).


The issue is we don't want Azerite gear. It's a dumb idea that wasn't executed with any sort of thought to it.

Just bring back tier and add a talent row.


I hope you realize they’re not going to scrap the system the entire expansion is built around. That’s just delusional. At this point, the best things we could hope for is that they improve this terrible system. Then come 9.0 they scrap it and give us something actually good.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on.


At least when you're farming level 30 resistance gear you know immediately if the gear is beneficial or not. With Azerite gear, you have to go to a third-party website, put it through a simulator with all your other gear and stats and hope that +30 ilevel piece actually increases your thoroughput.

I would rather farm for resistance gear at this point.

At the very least the levels that traits unlock should be locked on when they are obtained. If I get a "mighty helm of awesomeness" at ilevel 340 and then get the exact same helm at 370 later in the week, I should have exactly the same traits unlocked based on my heart of Azeroth. I shouldn't need to gain another ten artifact levels suddenly just to use a new item. By moving the goal posts with a higher ilevel, you've made a frustrating system that is not fun or engaging. We can't improve our characters by getting higher level gear.
09/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lore
As a quick aside: I understand and appreciate that many of you are frustrated about the system. That's why I'm here - to get a better understanding of what exactly is frustrating people so I can present that feedback to the development team.

Step 1 of that process is explaining what our viewpoint is so that you guys can present counter-arguments. If your response to that explanation is to roll your eyes and make snarky comments about how dumb I am, that's fine, but it's really not helping make the game any better.

I get the need to vent, but if y'all could keep the personal attacks and memes to a minimum that'd make it a hell of a lot easier for me to actually help make the video game more fun for you.


I think we can all agree that the frustration from a player side is that this was promised as a "fix all" system to heavily pruned specs following Legion. This missed the mark very heavily and now a lot of classes feel incomplete and terrible.
09/27/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Calfurion
09/27/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Revren
...

The issue is we don't want Azerite gear. It's a dumb idea that wasn't executed with any sort of thought to it.

Just bring back tier and add a talent row.


I hope you realize they’re not going to scrap the system the entire expansion is built around. That’s just delusional. At this point, the best things we could hope for is that they improve this terrible system. Then come 9.0 they scrap it and give us something actually good.

The problem with that thinking is that that's what everyone did when it came to legion legendaries. The one issue with the legendaries that caused 90% of the problems and complaints was the RNG acquisition, which is one of the primary issues with Azerite armor even though people spent literally two years complaining about it until 8.0 hit and made legendaries targetable.
That's why I'm here - to get a better understanding of what exactly is frustrating people so I can present that feedback to the development team.


Its frustrating that the different difficulty levels have different AP requirements to unlock traits. It makes getting upgrades feel bad and it feels a bit like an artificial gate to progression.

For example ... the Leather chest from Fetid unlocks at the following levels on Normal:

17/21/23/26

On Heroic its:

17/21/25/29

On Mythic its:

17/22/26/32

The first 2 unlock at mostly the same rate (though the Mythic chest requires an extra level which without hard farming could take a week or more). The 3rd/4th traits (admittedly not as powerful as the first two) take SIGNIFICANTLY longer to unlock going between the different difficulties.

You can unlock all 4 traits on a Normal piece of Azerite gear with the same amount of AP as it takes to unlock just 3 on a Mythic piece.

I get that harder content drops more AP but the tuning still seems off. I cleared Normal and most of Heroic twice in the first 2 weeks. This week I've cleared most of Heroic and have started Mythic prog and I don't feel like I'm accruing enough AP from those Normal/Heroic clears to justify the AP requirement on the Mythic (and to a lesser extent) Heroic armor.

It's stuff like this that makes people feel like going from a 340 to a 370 is a downgrade because its not just refarming the trait, it's that you might have to refarm for WEEKS before you unlock the same trait you can unlock immediately on a Normal piece.
09/27/2018 04:06 PMPosted by Elynos
09/27/2018 04:05 PMPosted by Jasn
...

100%.

false


I've been watching you shill this entire thread, Blizzard employee detected.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Few things I'd like to comment on here.

First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on


First off you shouldn't give someones feedback a backhanded compliment, especially if you want good feedback to continue onward. Also what you describe here is for one raid. The issue with azerite armor is a much more pressing matter considering it is an expansion long feature we must endure. At least resistances added some fantasy flavor that was easily understood. The azerite armor system is a mess, and it feels like the devs are just claiming ignorance to this problem for the majority, believing its a symptom of imbalances (the whole expansion is if you haven't noticed). Even if the traits where perfectly balanced , this system would still not be enjoyable. You talked about farming resistance gear for a raid, well I would rather do that than farm sets of gear to be optimal for M+, raids, pvp, and for each spec i would like to play. If the answer to this is the cop out answer of well you don't have to be, then i guess you just don't want people to enjoy multiple facets of the game.
09/27/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Calfurion
09/27/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Revren
...

The issue is we don't want Azerite gear. It's a dumb idea that wasn't executed with any sort of thought to it.

Just bring back tier and add a talent row.


I hope you realize they’re not going to scrap the system the entire expansion is built around. That’s just delusional. At this point, the best things we could hope for is that they improve this terrible system. Then come 9.0 they scrap it and give us something actually good.


When you have to pray that in two years time they fix the issue, well man, thats not a good way to go about things.
When your new selling point of an expansion becomes the part everyone hates about the expansion. :/

Maybe it’s time to stop forcing it down players throats and just admit the Azerite system is a failure and move on.
09/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lore
I get the need to vent, but if y'all could keep the personal attacks and memes to a minimum that'd make it a hell of a lot easier for me to actually help make the video game more fun for you.


Dude it's the Internet. Saying that is like throwing blood in the water!

Edit - Also I'll second what some other people have been saying. There's a lot of actual feedback mixed in with the memes.
09/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lore
As a quick aside: I understand and appreciate that many of you are frustrated about the system. That's why I'm here - to get a better understanding of what exactly is frustrating people so I can present that feedback to the development team.

Step 1 of that process is explaining what our viewpoint is so that you guys can present counter-arguments. If your response to that explanation is to roll your eyes and make snarky comments about how dumb I am, that's fine, but it's really not helping make the game any better.

I get the need to vent, but if y'all could keep the personal attacks and memes to a minimum that'd make it a hell of a lot easier for me to actually help make the video game more fun for you.


If you want to make the game “fun”, remove Azerite gear entirely. And no, that won’t ruin the expansion - we got along without it until this point, we can do just fine without it in the future.

Really, think of all the effort Blizzard could put into story, dungeons, even the classes themselves if you weren’t on this futile crusade to tune a feature that can’t be tuned (am I the only one who remembers why glyphs became cosmetic only? Why aren’t we learning?), not to mention a feature that the majority of players don’t want.
09/27/2018 04:12 PMPosted by Shaytime
When your new selling point of an expansion becomes the part everyone hates about the expansion. :/

Maybe it’s time to stop forcing it down players throats and just admit the Azerite system is a failure and move on.


It's garrisons 2.
Or legiondaries 2.

Blizzard needs to put a terrible "expansion feature" they won't make any meaningful changes to for 2 years in every expansion or they'll melt I guess.
I felt the system is very restrictive too when i chose what class to main.
i wanted to main a druid as balance for pvp and resto for pve but i just decided to go for hunter and just play 1 spec for both since i just didnt feel like going and reforge everytime.
And again maybe some gear got a trait i want for resto but not for balance so i have to farm another piece for each spec.. it's boring and just a time consuming mechanic so we feel like we have alot of content.
I didnt really think about any fix but what i think of is maybe lock traits behind some kind of acheivements or idk anything that could be fun and let us decide which traits can be on our azerite piece with certain restrictions maybe?
i'd give feedback on the ptr but unfortunately its still down! whoops!
09/27/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Eushamguy
09/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lore
As a quick aside: I understand and appreciate that many of you are frustrated about the system. That's why I'm here - to get a better understanding of what exactly is frustrating people so I can present that feedback to the development team.

Step 1 of that process is explaining what our viewpoint is so that you guys can present counter-arguments. If your response to that explanation is to roll your eyes and make snarky comments about how dumb I am, that's fine, but it's really not helping make the game any better.

I get the need to vent, but if y'all could keep the personal attacks and memes to a minimum that'd make it a hell of a lot easier for me to actually help make the video game more fun for you.


I must say, Lore, it is becoming quite apparent how detached from community the Blizzard development team is. If the same exact problems have to be posted in several different forms and shapes, just to get our point through on how broken this implementation of a system is. It surely starts to look like we are reinventing the bike in a form of feedback, and you still don't understand what the underlying problem is. At this point, it basically becomes hopeless to even attempt and explain what the problem is with sufficient data to back our claims. As in the end we as the community are just quoting each other like monkeys with exact same or similar feedback and our desires on how it could be improved. Only for all of that feedback to fall on deaf ears. So much for the effort and hard work.

Players have always greatly cared about the state of the game, yet our feedback always seemed to slip by as if nothing has happened. We forgave Blizzard for that, but we did not forget. However, you continued to walk the same trend, and here you are now at it's worst it's ever been. It's about time, Blizzard invests more of their time into what community wishes to see for the longevity of the game, rather than pretending that they know best what we want. You think you do, but you don't. Because, it is no secret anymore, that you guys have created a slippery slope for yourselves by yourselves, countless expansions ago.

I also do urge, the community to stay civil in the matter of this delicate situation that our beloved game is in.

I would also like to see a higher standard of professionalism from Blizzard's part in communication with us, your valued customers. It takes years to build a company's reputation, and just a matter of seconds to lose it. I do not wish to hear any more excuses, answers without answers, making bold statements without consulting with the development team about the problems and the ways they are going to tackle them, just for it to end as false information from internal miscommunication.

As well as pointless Blue replies to a thread on how certain users are misbehaving by meme'ing, threatening or insulting you as the community managers/developers. Thus, Blizzard ignoring more than a half of valid criticism and counter arguments, just because a minority of people have made bad remarks (which for the most part, doesn't even seem to be the case or fall into the category of personal attack in the first place), is absolutely pathetic communication from your part. Hostility towards one another in most debates, like this one where the stakes are high, is unavoidable. If that's where your attention is, then I guess, there is no point into having a discussion about the state of affairs the game is in as of right now. Next time, perhaps just time-out the user, delete or modify the comment, instead of taking your precious time away from what really matters. The discussion between us, the community, and you, the WoW developers.

If, you do however wish to fix the game. Please, there is more than enough feedback on the old alpha/beta forums, as well as in this excellent thread made by Chaosbug and countless others. If, you would just devote some of your time, to get this through and let the developers that are working on the systems, read them. It would be a great start for long-term solution to existing problems. I also, commend you, Lore, for engaging in this thread more than any other community manager or developer since the alpha of BFA.

P.S. It would be about time to merge both EU and NA forums together. As we all know here by now, that nobody reads EU feedback or even dare to engage us in an open and civil discussion about the game over the seas.

Best regards,
Customer from EU


I agree with what you said 100%. Its like Lore just through us all into the a-hole category. Even though most of the posts here are just about the topic "Azerite", Lore makes an excuse that we hurt his feelings or something. Time to get thick skin blizzard.
09/27/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Lore
Step 1 of that process is explaining what our viewpoint is so that you guys can present counter-arguments. If your response to that explanation is to roll your eyes and make snarky comments about how dumb I am, that's fine, but it's really not helping make the game any better.


My viewpoint is this:

Add Azerite to M+ loot tables(370 at m+ 10, 355 at 5-9, 340 at 2-4).

Tons of trinkets in past expansions were under tuned and never used thats how WoW works and most players are fine with that. Thats the same with some of the azerite traits and the same as they will be through the whole expansion.

370 azerite from M+ will fix tons of problems and backlash that blizzard is currently getting. Traits can be tuned however and players will just farm up the good traits. 370 Azerite max will keep Mythic Raids still the best source for Azerite.

It hoestly doesnt make sense to me why we can't get azerite from M+. We are not even able to use most the traits on the Azerite currently.
09/27/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Tewa
09/27/2018 02:51 PMPosted by Drzilladin
Just add Azerite to M+ loot tables and it fixes every problem with Azerite.


No, it doesn't. See my post here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769060102?page=40#post-790


09/27/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Tewa
09/27/2018 02:51 PMPosted by Drzilladin
Just add Azerite to M+ loot tables and it fixes every problem with Azerite.


No, it doesn't. See my post here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769060102?page=40#post-790


Adding azerite armor to the M+ loot tables would fix all the problems because you can grind out max item level of whatever targeted trait you need.
The biggest frustration is the substitution of tier gear with azerite gear. The reason I say frustrating is that every azerite gear is slightly different yes you can see it in the dungeon journal but you have to go through each piece.

At present uldir gear seems to be as useful as non uldir gear and the only difference being the bonus of the secondary stats in the raid and exclusive traits.

The other frustration is the lack of reward when receiving a new piece of gear. At present it feels like a kick in the teeth as you get a piece and then everything is locked bar the first tier. Personally I really dislike this system as it encourges toxic game play from the start. In Legion i never tried to get AP as I am a fairly casual player but the Island Expeditions force me to do that content to use my gear. If I want to play the game and collect new gear their is a penalty for doing so in that yes i may get a dps/hp increase but i loose out on all the damage mitigation rewards from my old gear. And as everyone knows a dead dps is no dps.

Also the reforging is a frustration and the cost is a downside I have only been able to change things slightly could you not cap it like the old talent build where it caps out at "x" gold. I understand from your previous post this is not what your intention is but you leave little room for any experimentation of gear when you have a blanket restriction on learning the new system and as you mentioned we are still early in the xpac why cant we explore at this early stage? Also could you not have a reforge per item? this seems like a better system to allow people to try new gear?

One other thing that has been painfully frustrating is having to use third party sites like wowhead to find out the ppm or % chance of azerite gear effects. Could you not just have that in the tool tip to advise on how often it occurs? Something as simple as this would make the most confusing gearing system much easier to understand.

I know it could just be early days but it doesn't feel like it the xpac thus far feels flat and and heavily restricted and gated. Yes legion was like this too but for some reason BFA feels worse on so many levels I am still trying to put my finger on it but everything feels like a chore at this stage normally the start of the expansion is full of exploration, adventure, excitement and mystery. the exploration is still there the adventure has faded once the stories are finished the excitement has dwindled with the nothing new feeling and the mystery....... just densest seem to have an exciting hook at present.
My sans snark feedback:

Azerite took all of what made legion artifacts bad and doubled down on it (the AP grind), while leaving all the good of legion artifacts in the dust (unlocking *permanent* abilities that makes your character more powerful).

Not only that, but higher ilvl azerite armor is incredibly difficult to get a hold of, making reforging necessary for anyone filling multiple roles because it is in no way easy to farm out a second set especially with one of the design goals being, in effect, "you shouldnt farm for azerite gear because the traits shouldnt matter that much"... regardless, reforging would have been fine if not for the fact that reforging costs have been reintroduced in a massive step backwards in terms of design. This fee used to exist for simply respeccing your characters own talents way back in Vanilla, but not anymore. Reforging costs have no place in modern WoW.

Even worse, most of the traits are bland, uninteresting, and dont change up anything to do with your character (as part of leaving behind the good from legion artifacts). Even for the interesting traits that DO exist, the convoluted system of needing higher Heart levels to unlock them also obfuscates potential upgrades; is it better to go with the higher ilvl that may have the bland trait, or the lower ilvl that has the good trait? Simming isnt necessary because the traits are interesting or not, its necessary because of that crazy "moving goal post" combined with the information on how the trait works not being obvious to the player in game.

How can this be "fixed"?

- It can't. Stemming the bleeding is the best things are gonna get at this point:
- Make higher ilvl azerite gear far easier to acquire
- Remove the reforging fee
- somehow reduce if not remove the "moving goal post" effect of azerite gear requiring higher Heart levels in order to... unlock traits that you unlocked dozens of ilvl's ago.
- tune traits not to be equal - there be madness - but to what plays the best. To go along with that:
- prune out all the "bad" traits that are merely x chance to do y damage/increase a stat by b for c duration, and introduce traits that are more in line with the artifacts from legion; impactful to the way your class actually plays. To be fair, judging from things past said it does seem like the latter half of this is going to be implemented... in the next major content patch?

How could this have been avoided, as a lessons learned for the future?

Azerite traits should have been the pve equivalent of warmode talents, blending the good from legion artifacts with a system that bfa actually got right (imo, anyway).

The traits should have been on the Heart of Azeroth itself, still split into 3 tiers, and able to select 3 per tier. These should have been handled like talents; spec specific so they automatically swap when you swap specs, and also swappable whenever you can swap any other talent. No insane reforging fee. As above, traits should have focused on interesting things that actively change up how we play play, not boring passive dps increases.

Azerite gear should have then simply made those traits better, to better mimic the tier set bonus' they are replacing. Or, junk the azerite gear all together because the traits are no longer bound to them, and bring proper tier sets back.

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