Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 60 61 62 118 Next
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore
And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.
Lore, you are a CM that I believe actually cares about the game and its community. I believe your apology is an honest one.

The problem is... it just doesn't carry any weight anymore, man.

Like it or not, the era of Ghostcrawler set a precedent for communication and transparency that the team failed to stick with since he left. Other studios continue to step up their game with communication and Ghostcrawler, still is one of the most open developers in the industry right now in regards to interacting with his players.

I get it. Communicating with folks is hard, especially a crowd as rabid as the WoW forums.

Do you remember the absolutely abysmal handling of the events leading up to Warlords of Draenor? You could ask the same question to three different developers and each one of them would tweet a completely different, conflicting answer. Communication was a trainwreck. Nobody knew what the game was going to be like, not even the people making it.

Lo and behold, WoD is widely regarded as one of the biggest failures in this game's history. Since then, you, other CMs, and even Ion has expressed in no uncertain terms that the communication side of things needs improvement. It does. It has needed improvement for years. WHEN is it going to improve?

A handful of vague blueposts a week doesn't cut it. Hour long QA sessions once every three months in which half of the questions are repeats of what we are already getting posts of on the forums and the other half are soft-ball questions doesn't cut it.

Even Beta forums don't get much attention. Feedback threads get opened and major bug-posts get a blue. You post build "dev notes" and that's.. about it. Once in a blue moon, a class might get a wall-of-text talking about the state of a spec and the direction going forward, but those are still outliers and not the norm even during development. Post-launch? Good luck.

I admire a team that is capable of standing up for an idea and defending it just as much as I admire one that is willing to step forward and admit that, yeah, they messed up. That doesn't happen here. The players are always treated like idiots that seem to be missing some perspective that would revolutionize their way of thinking.

The only mistake that is ever admitted here is a failing in communication. Never anything with design or implementation. There is never any heartfelt apology that an idea that a lot of resources got invested into ended up being bad. There is never any hard-hitting changes that re-imagine a system that was not well received.

The train just keeps going without ever changing tracks.
Ok, you want feedback here's mine.

I was lucky enough to get two 385 Azerite pieces from my caches - hurrah im happy, however if i wanted to play another spec i would have to switch them out for 340 pieces because the cost of reforging, so not hurrah.

Further more i like playing fury but im playing arms for more DPS, not the issue - the issue is for fury the better trait on one of the pieces is to stand in stuff on the floor, which covers up mechanics and the other trait is well.. bloodcraze which is absolute garbage. So the entire 385 piece feels like crap for fury despite being 385.

And you know. . i cant "just farm" another 385 piece.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I mentioned the imbalance between traits before, but just to expand on that: that's why we've focused so much effort into tuning Azerite traits over the past few weeks. With this most recent round of tuning, we think we've gotten most of the really egregious outliers dialed in, but please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level.


What about the ones that are so bad that they aren't worth using even after an ilvl jump? Because that describes just about every Feral trait except Raking Ferocity and all the traits from the leather I've seen from Warfront war boss suck !@# relative to generics like Dagger in the Back.

  • Seph specifically said using Thrash in single target is bad gameplay, but that's what Wild Fleshrending is built to do
  • Shredding Fury and Blood Mist don't do enough damage since they are only triggered every 15/30 seconds
  • Gushing Lacerations and Iron Jaws are simply bad copies of Legion legendaries thanks to the crippled proc rates and damage
  • Twisted Claws applies a short buff that could be stacked, except Thrash is impossible to spam to build the stack, even if the proc chance was raised to 100%.
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore

And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.


Honestly, for all that this subject makes me want to rant and rave, this discussion was never going to happen on the beta, and it is not y'all's fault.

We don't play the same way on the beta, and the gear doesn't matter the same way to us. We go in, we test, maybe we set up 2-3 toons for raid testing and they aren't even the same as the mythic testing. The loot on beta in chests was more generous, the flaskotaur etc let us test the pieces you wanted tested, there was no burning urge to build the perfect set for multiple activities. There's no real pinch felt on beta; no easy way to know we'd feel the pinch on live.
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore
Thank you to everyone making the effort to discuss this in a constructive manner. Rest assured that I'm taking all of your feedback to heart. I've got a great list of discussion points and arguments to make on your behalf the next time I meet with the development team.

There's a number of good points raised in this thread that I haven't responded to yet simply because I haven't had a chance to talk to the devs about them. And, for full transparency, it's going to be a few days before I can. In the meantime, keep making good points and I'll keep taking notes.

And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.


Thanks for being willing to discuss and at least let the community know the devs will be receiving this feedback. You've gotten a lot of !@#$ from people, but people are just passionate about this game.

Hopefully the feedback is well received and acted on.
Trait Balance: Traits are never going to be perfectly balanced, you guys know that as well as we do, and that's fine, the problem isn't that they're unbalanced, it's that we have no way to target what we want. If they're unbalanced and I can run Tol Dagor till my eyes bleed to try and get the helmet that is 'bis' then it doesn't matter. Balance is a pipe dream when we're simply running the numbers, ESPECIALLY when the traits are simple damage buffs to single abilities, there's no nuance to almost any of these traits to give them niches.

AP: Artifact Power is a huge failure, when you guys posted your Legion discussion threads at the end of Legion, the OVERWHELMING majority of posts in the mythic raiding scene thread were negative on Artifact Power and hated grinding AP. Nobody enjoys it. I don't need that Carrot to run a dungeon, stop forcing us to. AT LEAST in Legion, you were working towards a new thing. In BFA? You're working just to not lose the stuff you already had (Or, if you're like me right now, probably just never going to get those third or fourth traits because I have no desire to grind AP and it's going to keep increasing in requirement anyway). I'm sure there are people out there that enjoy grinding AP, but I've never met them. The fact that this chore permeates every aspect of the game, means NOBODY is free from doing this, it actively makes me not want to log in, knowing that all I have are chores to maintain a status quo of player power and retain a raiding spot in a guild.

The Neck: Related to the above, why does the neck exist at all? Azerite armor as a concept is fine - combining set bonuses and legendary effects sounds REALLY cool on paper, and I think most of us would be super down wtih that. But even aside from the effects being uninteresting, the gating from the neck serves no purpose. It's busywork. Why is it here? Just put in Azerite armor, remove azerite levels and AP completely. Yeah, I won't log in every day to do my dailies, I'm sure your beancounters tell you that player engagement = more spend, but the reality is nothing makes me want to unsub more than feeling I have to spend more time grinding garbage in this game just to engage with the parts that I actively enjoy.
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore
Thank you to everyone making the effort to discuss this in a constructive manner. Rest assured that I'm taking all of your feedback to heart. I've got a great list of discussion points and arguments to make on your behalf the next time I meet with the development team.

There's a number of good points raised in this thread that I haven't responded to yet simply because I haven't had a chance to talk to the devs about them. And, for full transparency, it's going to be a few days before I can. In the meantime, keep making good points and I'll keep taking notes.

And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.


Gonna take a couple days to get some answers? Yeah, guess what? You guys had enough time to fix and answer things I'm paying a subscription for. My subscription doesn't stop ticking while you guys are screwing around and getting around to something when you feel like it. You know, typical Blizzard response time, you'll get back to us "soon" right?

You didn't listen in beta to all the concerns and look what happened. Your motto in office "You think you do, but you don't" speaks volumes.

So, I'm tracking my days until sub renewal. If things aren't answered in that time frame, I'm out. This has been the WORST expansion to date. The game isn't fun, the game doesn't feel like WoW anymore. It's now something the size of an ocean with the depth of a puddle. I called it back with the destruction of the skill trees that this was the beginning of the end of WoW, and each expansion since a major part of WoW died in a quest to make it the casual action game it is today with cheap mobile game grinds (azerite).

Who is working on WoW Classic btw? Please tell me it's hands off from people in this team.
The thing I am really surprised with is the fact you knew hardly any one enjoyed farming Artifact Power in legion, so you attempted to trim it a little bit and got the auto Azerite Knowledge rolling alot quicker, while at the same time making it so much worse with a design that was flagged, forget beta, but in Alpha as being terrible for players. Then to top it off making Azerite Armor and it's "bonus's" gated behind the grind, while offering mostly traits that don't feel that meaningful to the player.

I get you want a grind and reasons to put us out into the world to avoid what happened in previous expansions where not many left cities / garrisons, but give us re-playable content that is not so mind numbingly dull to do.

The people I feel bad for the most though, are the casual players that can only commit and hr or 5 per week and get excited they have an upgrade only to find they can't use that upgrade because they don't have the time to commit to farming the Azerite Power so it sits there unused for a while until they finally have enough to make it better than their 325 ilvl Azerite item. That would be a massive turn off for me in playing the game, especially one that is subscription based.
09/27/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Brambleberry
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore

And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.


Honestly, for all that this subject makes me want to rant and rave, this discussion was never going to happen on the beta, and it is not y'all's fault.

We don't play the same way on the beta, and the gear doesn't matter the same way to us. We go in, we test, maybe we set up 2-3 toons for raid testing and they aren't even the same as the mythic testing. The loot on beta in chests was more generous, the flaskotaur etc let us test the pieces you wanted tested, there was no burning urge to build the perfect set for multiple activities. There's no real pinch felt on beta; no easy way to know we'd feel the pinch on live.
It did happen on Beta, though.

There were mountains and mountains of feedback on a number of points regarding the Azerite system from the first day it showed up. Sure, focus was more toward the system itself and not the rate of acquisition, but none of the feedback expressed here or the myriad of other posts are new developments that could only surface in a Live environment.

You're definitely correct that we're starting to see feedback resulting from actual live experiences, but all of what we're seeing today are just repeats of the exact same problems and concerns that piled up in feedback threads on Beta.

I'd be much more sympathetic if nobody saw this coming but... everyone saw it coming.
09/27/2018 06:54 PMPosted by Qurari
For every step taken forward - and Legion was a step forward - there's another five taken backwards.


Hahaha, Legion was not a step forward.

The Rogue I've been playing since 2005 got absolutely dumpstered with this dumb redesign that turned it into an unrecognizable and revolting piece of trash.

They removed many of the most memorable Rogue abilities and replaced them with nothing good or interesting.

Legion is the worst expansion I have ever played, BFA just feels like a continuation of the same pruned trash.
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore
Thank you to everyone making the effort to discuss this in a constructive manner. Rest assured that I'm taking all of your feedback to heart. I've got a great list of discussion points and arguments to make on your behalf the next time I meet with the development team.

There's a number of good points raised in this thread that I haven't responded to yet simply because I haven't had a chance to talk to the devs about them. And, for full transparency, it's going to be a few days before I can. In the meantime, keep making good points and I'll keep taking notes.

And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.


uh, thanks for being transparent, but do the devs work part time? like the company i work at talks about core issues in the morning every day, what else are WoW devs doing that require their time in other places? their whole azerite system is a burning dumpster fire.
I feel bad for Lore.

The community managers job is to be the connection between Blizzard and their community. And at the current time, that connection has never been worse.

The problem isn't on our end. And I doubt the problem is Lore himself.
The problem is more likely that Blizzard isn't listening to or communicating with their community managers.

I've seen a lot of people in that same position. Where they're not even given an opportunity to do their own job properly because some higher up wants things a certain way.
Hell, I've been in it myself a few times.

Those people are rarely happy with their jobs, and being happy with your job is a major part to being happy in general.
09/27/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Brambleberry
We don't play the same way on the beta, and the gear doesn't matter the same way to us.


If there were on-live incentives, such as pets and mounts for achievements on Beta, there would be much more incentive to test fully.
Gonna take a couple days to get some answers? Yeah, guess what? You guys had enough time to fix and answer things I'm paying a subscription for. My subscription doesn't stop ticking while you guys are screwing around and getting around to something when you feel like it. You know, typical Blizzard response time, you'll get back to us "soon" right?

So, I'm tracking my days until sub renewal. If things aren't answered in that time frame, I'm out. This has been the WORST expansion to date. The game isn't fun, the game doesn't feel like WoW anymore. It's now something the size of an ocean with the depth of a puddle. I called it back with the destruction of the skill trees that this was the beginning of the end of WoW, and each expansion since a major part of WoW died in a quest to make it the casual action game it is today with cheap mobile game grinds (azerite).

Who is working on WoW Classic btw? Please tell me it's hands off from people in this team.


09/27/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Ezkanji
09/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Lore
And as for "this conversation should have happened during beta," you're right. It should have. I'm sorry it didn't.
Lore, you are a CM that I believe actually cares about the game and its community. I believe your apology is an honest one.

The problem is... it just doesn't carry any weight anymore, man.

Like it or not, the era of Ghostcrawler set a precedent for communication and transparency that the team failed to stick with since he left. Other studios continue to step up their game with communication and Ghostcrawler, still is one of the most open developers in the industry right now in regards to interacting with his players.

I get it. Communicating with folks is hard, especially a crowd as rabid as the WoW forums.

Do you remember the absolutely abysmal handling of the events leading up to Warlords of Draenor? You could ask the same question to three different developers and each one of them would tweet a completely different, conflicting answer. Communication was a trainwreck. Nobody knew what the game was going to be like, not even the people making it.

Lo and behold, WoD is widely regarded as one of the biggest failures in this game's history. Since then, you, other CMs, and even Ion has expressed in no uncertain terms that the communication side of things needs improvement. It does. It has needed improvement for years. WHEN is it going to improve?

A handful of vague blueposts a week doesn't cut it. Hour long QA sessions once every three months in which half of the questions are repeats of what we are already getting posts of on the forums and the other half are soft-ball questions doesn't cut it.

Even Beta forums don't get much attention. Feedback threads get opened and major bug-posts get a blue. You post build "dev notes" and that's.. about it. Once in a blue moon, a class might get a wall-of-text talking about the state of a spec and the direction going forward, but those are still outliers and not the norm even during development. Post-launch? Good luck.

I admire a team that is capable of standing up for an idea and defending it just as much as I admire one that is willing to step forward and admit that, yeah, they messed up. That doesn't happen here. The players are always treated like idiots that seem to be missing some perspective that would revolutionize their way of thinking.

The only mistake that is ever admitted here is a failing in communication. Never anything with design or implementation. There is never any heartfelt apology that an idea that a lot of resources got invested into ended up being bad. There is never any hard-hitting changes that re-imagine a system that was not well received.

The train just keeps going without ever changing tracks.


Preach it.

Both of these posts are spot on and they need to be taken to heart, not just by the CMs but by the developers, designers, product managers, game director

Apologizing for past communication mistakes isn't enough. We need more volume of communication starting now before it's too late.

We need lines of dialogue for every class, covering PvE and PvP, and we need them to be ongoing and sustained, starting now and continuing through the announcement and beta of the next expansion whenever that will be.
With respect to reforge costs, I don’t understand. Azerite gear helps fill the gap left by set bonuses. And yet in Legion, the tier gear I wore would automatically change bonuses with my spec. I can understand possibly having to pay a reforge cost for changing traits WITHIN a spec, but to intend each piece to be for 1 spec only (or to compromise on its power for the versatility of using it for multiple specs) is a huge step backwards and quite unfun.
09/27/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Protmarie
09/27/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Brambleberry
We don't play the same way on the beta, and the gear doesn't matter the same way to us.


If there were on-live incentives, such as pets and mounts for achievements on Beta, there would be much more incentive to test fully.
That's not a good idea.

Plus it wouldn't help. Things were tested fully this time.

There isn't a single issue with Azerite gear that was first discovered by the community post-release. It was all laid out in beta.
09/27/2018 07:27 PMPosted by Calxen
I feel bad for Lore.

I don't; he arguably has one of the best jobs on the planet. :)
I am really enjoying raiding this expac which is bloody lucky because there is little to no joy in actually killing a boss other then the fact you killed it, since it is pretty much always a disappointment when loot drops anyway.

It either has !@#$ house traits, poor stats or as per most kills nothing god damn drops including coining. You jack up the price of coins take away master loot I have never had such disinterest in what drops from the boss in all my yearts of wow.

Frankly when we kill a boss now half the time I almost forget to loot the boss it's like when you turn around and see a glowing trash pack with loot and think nah not worth running back for that's what it's like to kill a boss this expac Blizzard.

The content I think is actually really good but all the mechanisms behind it, personal loot, azerite traits, coins, etc it's so lack luster.

I should be crossing my fingers and begging to the loot gods with excitement each time I kill a boss instead I'm like meh wonder what crap boring item will drop if at all.
09/27/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Protmarie
09/27/2018 07:27 PMPosted by Calxen
I feel bad for Lore.

I don't; he arguably has one of the best jobs on the planet. :)


I don't think so. He has to talk and listen to players that are frustrated because of his colleagues bad decisions. He isn't actually guilty of anything at least I this he isn't. This is one of the worst positions you can be in Blizzard.
Azerite is the epitome of the "Level your Pants" joke MMO burnouts like me made literally 10-15 years ago.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum