How did the Alliance show racism in Vanilla?

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I often hear "the Alliance used to be racist before they turned into Blizzard's pearly angels!"

However, was this every really shown or emphasized in game? The examples I hear most often -- Durnholde, Daelin, Garrithos -- all come from non-WoW media, and involve characters not especially relevant to the Grand Alliance.

Mind you, I would love little more than to discover that the Alliance has deeply racist roots. Current squeaky clean Alliance tendencies are horribly boring. However, I'm having trouble finding any of that in the faction born at the start of WoW.
Bolvar can't comprehend Nathanos having freewill and tells you he'd thank you for killing him. Nathanos' cousin also used to hunt forsaken in game. Really seems like most of the racism in-game was leveled at the Forsaken tbh, though Dwarves also seem to believe "talking cattle" couldn't stake claims either if Bael Modan is anything to go by.
Dwarves interactions with Tauren and their lands are probably a pretty good example. They pretty much show complete contempt for the Tauren's claims to the land, ignoring all the Tauren's problems with their activities and will happily build military bases on top of the sites of tribes they have massacred.

In the southern barrens, the chief archeologist's tone in the book you got off his corpse made it pretty clear that he at least saw them as little more than animalistic savages and took little issue in slaughtering the entire tribe when they tried to stop the dwarves digging up the site with dynamite.

Take into account the Horde had Alliance incursions into their territories in almost every zone and at the time 'but the Horde are bad' had a lot less justification.

You could probably argue the Alliance's activities in the BE starting areas show a level of contempt and bigotry. The BEs attempted to open diplomatic connections and the Alliance sent spies and set up hostile military camps on lands the BEs were trying to reclaim to spy on Silvermoon.

The captain in Northwatch attacked vessels because they belonged to blood elves.
I'm not sure racism is the right term.

The Alliance were more... trigger happy in vanilla. Northwatch fired at any ships that came into range, dwarves killed tauren in the Barrens to dig up their sites, there was the AV debacle that I don't want to get into, illegally digging in Mulgore against the natives' wishes, killing Nathanos not because of a crime but because he was undead.

Small stuff like. Nothing drasic, but small things that made the Alliance more imperialisic than they are these days.

Dwarves especially seemed imperialistic.
People don't understand the relationship between the Alliance and the Horde back then. Keep in mind, this was when Thrall's Horde was new, the Alliance only knew the Horde from back when it was crazed with Demon Blood. Not only that, but Thrall's Horde was just as blood thirsty. They continued lumber operations in Ashenvale, the Undead attacked Arathi, experimented on living subjects... People want to put blame someone, claim racism or whatever else... It's hard when both are guilty. The only thing we know for certain is the Horde's bloody past. In the first and Second War, the Alliance were very much the Good Guys. Hell, even before the retcon, the Orcs had drank the Demon Blood Willingly.... Which I think made the Orcs more nuanced and interesting, but Blizzard felt the need to paint them as good guys for WoW, even though they where never that, and the retconned completely undermines the purpose for Grommash's sacrifice.
09/11/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Akiyass
People want to put blame someone, claim racism or whatever else


I... generally agree. But some of the Alliance's vanilla stuff isn't really related to those crimes.

Like the Guns of Northwatch, it says the Alliance are attacking any ships that get too close.

I'm also biased for the Tauren-Related situations. Butchering the Stonespire because they resisted their ancestral grounds being dug up was pretty awful.
09/11/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Ximothy
But some of the Alliance's vanilla stuff isn't really related to those crimes.


How are they not? The crimes of the Horde from the first and second war was all they really had to go on at this point. Sure, there was the Battle of Hyjal, but how many huamans were actually there? Have the men and women garrisoned at Northwatch have any positive experience with the Horde at all?

09/11/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Ximothy
Butchering the Stonespire because they resisted their ancestral grounds being dug up was pretty awful.


And yeah, this is pretty awful but at the same time, was their any diplomacy here? Did the Dwarves know what they were doing? Was it explained to them before steel clashed? From there perspective, could it have just been Horde being Hostile again? As they always have been?
Calling the Kettle black does not make the pan not.

Racism is the blatant dislike for any individual of a particular race or culture. It doesn't matter if they are or are not racist in return. You are not less racist because those you are racist against are also racist against you. That just makes you both racist.

Take the American history. White people were racist to Black slaves. Whom in turn carry that stigma so strongly even today that some people are so afraid of being called racist they go out of their way to prove otherwise. What do they call it, "a token black friend"? Why should having a single black friend disqualify you? On the Flip side why shouldn't it?

The Dwarves were not racist to the Tauren just because of one Dwarf. That Dwarf was racist to Tauren. We Wildhammer once had good relations with the Tauren. Some of our beliefs even coincided with them.

As far as humans being racist to undead or the Forsaken, not true. The Forsaken were not a race. It would be more like species-ist. The thing about race, species, and breed is that we normally refer to these as humans identify them. Animals are not typically defined as race, that is a purely human or humanoid term. Anything "not-human" is often referred to as a species or breed of said species. Because the Forsaken were no longer seen as being human... well you can see where this is going. Canines don't have races, they have "breeds".

In Warcraft due to them being human-like we refer to the playable characters as races, The Tauren Race, the Dwarven race, the race of Orcs, etc... The Forsaken are not a race of undead, they are a species or breed of undead as defined by Sylvanas when she liberated them from the Lich King's control. Even then that doesn't even qualify as some of the Forsaken are not even Forsaken. Genetically speaking all undead could be Forsaken, but not all undead are. Slag, not even all forsaken are undead. I think there was a Leaper Gnome who identified as a Forsaken. Any member of the Ebon Blade regardless of what race they are could identify as a Forsaken.

Forsaken are not so much an identifiable race as they are a unifying group of undead whom follow a common goal or leader. You can identify as anything you want, that doesn't change your race or species. Behind my keyboard I could identify as a Dragon-Wolf-extraterrestrial from some planet in the cosmos. That does not make me one. As far as Genetics and racial profiles go, I am Human. That is my race as defined by Warcraft.
How are they not?


How is bombing any ship that gets close to Northwatch related to the Horde?

The guy who gives us quests to avenge his ship was a High elf working for the Steamwheedle, so it's not like they were bombing orc ships. They just attacked any ship that got close.

09/11/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Akiyass
And yeah, this is pretty awful but at the same time, was their any diplomacy here? Did the Dwarves know what they were doing? Was it explained to them before steel clashed? From there perspective, could it have just been Horde being Hostile again? As they always have been?


Attempts at reaching a diplomatic resolution have failed. Now is the time for decisive action.


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gann%27s_Reclamation_(quest)

Yes, there were.
09/11/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Ximothy
How is bombing any ship that gets close to Northwatch related to the Horde?


This is actually common practice. If you get to close to a military establishment, rest assured that you are going to get shot. Keep your distence and it wouldn't be a problem.

09/11/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Ximothy
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gann%27s_Reclamation_(quest)Yes, there were.


I see... But at this point, a Titan facility was discovered, a ruin containing artifacts that should be denied to the enemy.
09/11/2018 10:06 AMPosted by Doseki
Calling the Kettle black does not make the pan not.

Racism is the blatant dislike for any individual of a particular race or culture. It doesn't matter if they are or are not racist in return. You are not less racist because those you are racist against are also racist against you. That just makes you both racist.

Take the American history. White people were racist to Black slaves. Whom in turn carry that stigma so strongly even today that some people are so afraid of being called racist they go out of their way to prove otherwise. What do they call it, "a token black friend"? Why should having a single black friend disqualify you? On the Flip side why shouldn't it?

The Dwarves were not racist to the Tauren just because of one Dwarf. That Dwarf was racist to Tauren. We Wildhammer once had good relations with the Tauren. Some of our beliefs even coincided with them.

As far as humans being racist to undead or the Forsaken, not true. The Forsaken were not a race. It would be more like species-ist. The thing about race, species, and breed is that we normally refer to these as humans identify them. Animals are not typically defined as race, that is a purely human or humanoid term. Anything "not-human" is often referred to as a species or breed of said species. Because the Forsaken were no longer seen as being human... well you can see where this is going. Canines don't have races, they have "breeds".

In Warcraft due to them being human-like we refer to the playable characters as races, The Tauren Race, the Dwarven race, the race of Orcs, etc... The Forsaken are not a race of undead, they are a species or breed of undead as defined by Sylvanas when she liberated them from the Lich King's control. Even then that doesn't even qualify as some of the Forsaken are not even Forsaken. Genetically speaking all undead could be Forsaken, but not all undead are. Slag, not even all forsaken are undead. I think there was a Leaper Gnome who identified as a Forsaken. Any member of the Ebon Blade regardless of what race they are could identify as a Forsaken.

Forsaken are not so much an identifiable race as they are a unifying group of undead whom follow a common goal or leader. You can identify as anything you want, that doesn't change your race or species. Behind my keyboard I could identify as a Dragon-Wolf-extraterrestrial from some planet in the cosmos. That does not make me one. As far as Genetics and racial profiles go, I am Human. That is my race as defined by Warcraft.


Let me clarify: I'm interested in any flavor from Vanilla that demonstrates bigotry, xenophobia, or even plain trigger-happiness on the Alliance side so that I can have a better idea of how the faction has changed. Further, you don't need to persuade me (or anyone else) that the Horde has done bad things; that's just not the topic under discussion.

There, I've circumvented this pointless debate about whether obviously bad behavior counts as a particular type of bad behavior / whether the Horde is worse.

Please.

Please tell me I have circumvented that pointless debate.
09/11/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Akiyass
I see... But at this point, a Titan facility was discovered, a ruin containing artifacts that should be denied to the enemy.

Post hoc rationalization of maintaining control of the site for the Alliance doesn't excuse the unethical initial acquisition of the land.

Also, such archaeological finds can be used diplomatically to build bridges between people by sharing and helping everyone learn more about where their ancestors came from. Whereas, plundering ancestral historical sites tends to engender lasting enmity for short term gains.
Many members of the Alliance don't think that Horde races should exist.

That's why Daelin Oroudmore could roll up and immediately attack the Darkspear, despite not knowing anything about them other than "trolls." It's why the dwarves regularly massacre any Horde (Tauren, Frostwolves) that are living on land they want to dig up. It's why an Alliance commander could casually order the murder of the Bilgewater goblins. It's why the Night Elves don't think twice about setting up hostile camps on Blood Elf land. It's why Horde starter areas have been repelling Alliance incursions since Vanilla WoW.

Sylvanas wasn't wrong when she argued that the Alliance will never accept the Horde as legitimate.
09/11/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Carmageddon
It's why an Alliance commander could casually order the murder of the Bilgewater goblins.

To be fair, the Alliance presence during the Goblin starting zone was a black ops mission to capture Thrall and leave no witnesses. The attack on the Goblins wasn't really motivated by bigotry. It still wasn't a nice thing to do, but it wasn't really racially motivated.
09/11/2018 10:44 AMPosted by Éamon
Post hoc rationalization of maintaining control of the site for the Alliance doesn't excuse the unethical initial acquisition of the land. Also, such archaeological finds can be used diplomatically to build bridges between people by sharing and helping everyone learn more about where their ancestors came from. Whereas, plundering ancestral historical sites tends to engender lasting enmity for short term gains.


I don't it's reasonable to expect such diplomatic skills from dwarven prospectors, nor can we expect a desire to build bridges with a faction that tried to conquer the world not 2 decades prior.

I understand the Tauren had nothing to do with that, but they aligned themselves with a faction responsible for it.

It would be like trying to build bridges with !@#$s.
The Horde gave much worst than it got in vanilla-wrath.

Horde was actually kidnapping people in order to use as live guinea pigs in blight experiments. Horde invades Stromgarde as it fights to reassert control over it's capital and territory so it's citizens could return and kills it's best men including their faction leader (who wasn't written as an Arthas clone at the time see the RPG). The Horde attacks Hillsbrad and kills everyone in it including peasants simply trying to escape Hillsbrad is now the Sludge Fields and attacked the mines as well and killed the miners and the foreman. They attacked Dalaran repeatedly from Ambermill to the outskirts of Dalaran around Dalaran crater. Surviving Blood Elves were frequent targets for example in Aerie Peaks you killed all the High Elves who had taken refuge there following the fall of Quel'thalas as a "message to Wildhammer", you killed the Elves in the plagueland to simply because they had records not because of anything they did. There was also the invasion of Ashenvale where you are invading the homeland of the Night Elves and killing them in it.

The BGs I think are non-canon but Alliance is the villain in Alterac Valley, the Horde is the villain in the other vanilla BGs.

If the Alliance is racist the Horde is much more so.
09/11/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Akiyass
I don't it's reasonable to expect such diplomatic skills from dwarven prospectors, nor can we expect a desire to build bridges with a faction that tried to conquer the world not 2 decades prior.

I understand the Tauren had nothing to do with that, but they aligned themselves with a faction responsible for it.

It would be like trying to build bridges with !@#$s


They killed natives to a land because they wanted to dig up their holy sites.

Many innocent tauren lost their lives or were forced off their ancestral birthplace when the dwarves of Bael Modan arrived
-Gann's Reclamation (quest)

Khazgorm's justifaction had nothing to do with the Horde. He simple did not care what the natives thought or wanted. He wanted the titan ruins and killed innocents to get to it.

The work will be noisy and disruptive but our search is of far greater importance than the comfort of the local inhabitants. In fact, we've already had to drive a band of bull-men out of the area who were proving to be a nuisance.
-Khazgorm's Journal

This as nothing to do with the Horde. These dwarves wanted the natives land so they drove them off, and even killed them. Even then, the tauren still tried to diplomatically resolve it.

If you can prove that the reason the dwarves didn't care had anything to do with the Horde, please do so. Because as of right now, by the lead prospector's own journal, they killed the native tauren because they deemed their research move important than their claims to their own lands.

This is, quite possibly, the only situation in World of Warcraft where I think the Alliance is 100% in the wrong. Probably the only one, but nonetheless I do fault them here entirely.
09/11/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Casina
The Horde gave much worst than it got in vanilla-wrath.


I mean, you don't get to decide how much a person gets to fight back when you start throwing punches.
09/11/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Myrothan
09/11/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Casina
The Horde gave much worst than it got in vanilla-wrath.


I mean, you don't get to decide how much a person gets to fight back when you start throwing punches.


Too bad the Horde started throwing the punches first.

i.e. enter Tarren Mill and find they have already been kidnapping farmers, later on you poison them with a blight experiment.

The Night Elves also only joined the Alliance because they couldn't get the Horde out of Ashenvale on their own.
09/11/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Myrothan
09/11/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Casina
The Horde gave much worst than it got in vanilla-wrath.


I mean, you don't get to decide how much a person gets to fight back when you start throwing punches.


Ehhh Horde were more aggressive in Vanilla than the Alliance. I mean, Ashenvale and Hillsbrad spring to mind.

The Horde did things like test their blight on Alliance farmers, taint the Heart of the Forest in Ashenvale, murder sleeping druids, things like that.

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