Prot warriors in 8.1?

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We need a proper response this week, not some weak !@# half assed PR response.
As someone who has mained Prot Warrior since Vanilla, this has really been pissing me off.
We finally get a response about prot warriors and it is just some PR of them basically saying, no we are not going to fix your class. Maybe you will see something in 8.2
I hope we see a huge overhaul to tanking, to justify these changes to taunt. Tanking is already in an abysmal state from tanks losing magic mitigation, losing artifacts, and GCD changes.

Now you want to change taunt, which has worked fine for years. No reason to fix what isn’t broken, when there’s plenty with tanking that IS broken atm.

Feels like a kick in the gut when you’re already down.
Seeing as how this thread has gotten blue responses. I think it's a good idea to post the primary issues surrounding protection warrior right now. I'm going to bold frequently to serve as a TL:DR. Consider this a post for 8.1 considerations. I will be posting it again in the future with many edits and addendums.

1. Talents
2. Gameplay
3. Identity.

#1.Talents
As of right now there is very little talent diversity among Protection Warriors and most talents are relatively weak. A number of talents are trap talents, that by picking you are actually lowering your overall effectiveness compared to other choices.

The primary offenders are:Impending Victory, Best Served Cold, Indominable, Never Surrender, Devastator, Ravager. All are bad talents. Lets talk about them.

Ravager:
Ravager continues to be a trap talent that is in the wrong row. The damage of a full duration 1 minute cooldown is less than a single cast of thunderclap. The defensive utility of the spell is RNG and thus completely unreliable. There is currently no situation in this world you would ever pick Ravager over Anger Management or Heavy Repercussions. Both of them offer a one two punch of mitigation, damage, and utility. Ravager in theory offers this, but the tuning is so low so as to make it worthless. Its damage or utility would have to completely overwhelm Anger Management to make it viable.

Ravager is easily in the top 5 of the worst talents in this entire game, and has been since Legion. It is the epitome of a Trap Talent right now. It just isn't a level 100 talent. It actually has some use as a ranged AoE threat ability. Something Warriors sorely lack compared to the other classes.
Remove Ravager or put it in another row. Best Served Cold is screaming to be replaced by Ravager. It actually fits there. It wouldn't even require you to change the spell, other than making it do more damage.

Impending Victory:
Impending Victory requiring deathblows to reset will always make it a poor choice for tanks. Protection Warrior's forte isn't damage, and requiring a deathblow to cast a moderate self-heal as a tank spec doesn't make much sense. It's a potentially powerful talent that has a lot of utility. Allowing it to reset on enemy damaged death would make it a much more powerful and competitive talent within its row, and an excellent 5 man sustain talent. You could even keep or increase the rage cost component to keep it more balanced. This is a talent I would love to pick up but the limitations have always kept it weak.

Best Served Cold:
This is an easy one to unpack. Best Served Cold spends rage while the other talents generate it, and the damage is nowhere near worth the investment. Seriously, just put Ravager here.


Row 60:
Indominable and Never Surrender are outright boring, lazy, weak talents that hold the spec back and are no choice at all. Bolster is just better in every way. Indominable is a talent I loathe with a passion because it keeps our health artificially lower with no engaging gameplay or interaction with the rest of the spec at all. It's just 10% more health. Never Surrender is a minor boost to a more seldom used spell that is significantly weaker already. I'd love to see both of these talents scrapped or completely reimagined.

Devastator:
Devastator is...actually a talent I miss. I really enjoyed it's gameplay. The problem is right now it's not very competitive as a talent because haste is so low and the rage generation compared to the other two isn't anywhere near what it was. I'd love to see devastator give you rage on hit again to make it more of a choice. Frankly if I were the king of the WoW, I'd swap things around and make Devastator baseline and Devastate the talent.
2. Gameplay

Protection Warrior's gameplay has been significantly slowed down and requires too much rage to function.
Going from Legion's tier 21 to BFA has been a bit of a shock to the system. The actions per minute requirements are way down and the interactivity of the spec is nominal at best. I feel because of the insane rage costs most of the time I'm just attacking and not actually mitigating anything. Obviously logs show that mitigation is something that is happening, but most of the time I feel I don't have the rage to cast things.


One of our biggest problems is our active mitigation actually requires rage. Hear me out.
While all the tank specs require you to build up resources to spend on active mitigation, Protection Warrior and Druid are the only ones that start at 0 and have to build ourselves up from there. Everyone else starts with resources at maximum and can go into fights and more easily get their active mitigation available.

I think this is a simple fix. Shield Block should not cost rage and only be limited by cooldown. Ignore Pain and Revenge should be our rage spenders. This way we can more easily go into fights with active mitigation rolling and have more things to do. You'd spend rage on big ticket items that matter rather than having to spend it on casts you can't manage because of low rage returns. This has a side benefit of slightly nerfing Anger Management which is overwhelming the spec.

As for the speed of the spec...I think the basic rotation is fine but the rage costs are just exorbitant. It makes things really slow.

Anger Management is such a powerful talent and pretty much the core of the spec. It should be baseline. Either you nerf it and have to significantly buff Prot Warrior's cooldowns and base mitigation. Or you should just make it baseline. It creates a positive feedback loop and synergy with the rest of the spec that feels great. The better you play, the more rage and faster cooldowns you get. Thematically, it also makes sense. You're a tank spec- you're supposed to be in control.
Anger management baseline would go a long way to solving the problem of our identity. I'm not exactly sure what Blizzard wants us to be or what my strengths are.

3. Identity.

Protection Warriors are at something of an identity crisis these days. What am I best at? I feel Prot Warrior is the "jack of all trades" tank. But with no real strengths other than mobility and the inherent weaknesses with that, it doesn't work out anymore.

Back in the day much of the mitigation in the game was centered around blocking. Now we have a more diverse array of tanking styles. You have a Guardian Druid's massive inherent mitigation. DK and DH's self-sustain gameplay style. And Monks have a unique stagger mechanic. Block hasn't really changed much. It's undoubtedly powerful, but in the age of self-sustain, mitigation, and spreading damage out it's way behind.

Block is inherently powerful, but visually unimpressive. It lacks pizzazz. It's passive. Blocking an attack is something that happens on your combat log and not on your screen.
Closing:

I feel survivability and group utility is how Tanks ultimately judge one another, and themselves.
During the reddit Q&A Ion brought up that each class should give up one thing to have a strength somewhere else. As a Prot Warrior, I feel like any strengths I have are easily surpassed by others and anything that I bring can easily be replaced by another class. Whatever detriments I have, are too much to justify.

I've felt this way for a long time. I don't want to be overpowered, but I want to be viable and desirable for every level of content in this game. From super high keys, mythic raids, and so on. Please consider making Warriors viable in the overall game meta.
09/21/2018 03:16 PMPosted by Lore


I'd also like to submit the argument that, while class balance certainly isn't perfect right now, it's also the beginning of an expansion, which is *always* a bit shaky for class balance. There are absolutely outliers on either side of the spectrum, with some buffs and most likely some nerfs incoming, but aside from those few cases, our data (based on hundreds of thousands of boss kills, arena matches, etc) is showing that class balance isn't that far out of whack from how things were at the start of Legion, or Warlords, or Mists, etc.


But it has been long enough to do something. That is the outlying issue. These problems have been brought up for a long time already and have not been addressed.

It took a month and a week into BfA for rogues to get a nerf. From something we knew was coming from ALPHA.

How can you justify a "sit back and hope it works itself out approach?" Are you waiting for everyone to get to an iLvl that you tested these numbers at? That this build will work itself out by 9.0?

This is just out of this world backwards. You knew of the issues, you did not act upon them, and now are acting surprised that people have lots of words for the current class balance. It stinks.

Wanna know what MM is in arena? A joke, it has no stun, and frost trap might be the worst cc in the game. What about Monk Healing? That stuff is so insanely good that any comp might be better off with a monk healing it. Its nuts. And that slight nerf to feral was an insane nerf to balance and you're not even listening.

Thats why people are mad. Please listen.
I think the thing that would get protection warrior back to a good place is a heal component tied to ignore pain. The choice between mitigation and health pool is already there with ignore pain. Adding a heal component will just emphasize this choice in rage spending. The legendary bracer effect from legion was strong, but I don't think baking the heals-per-rage effect into the class is the right way to go. The choice to spend rage should be meaningful. Linking a self-heal effect to ignore pain exclusively would preserve that choice. Heals per rage spent on ignore pain could accomplish this, but that's not the only option.

Overwriting ignore pain with another one could do it - a portion of the ignore pain that was overwritten, how ever much of the new ignore pain exceeds the absorb cap, rage spent on ignore pain when you already have ignore pain up. Even something like, using ignore pain when you have shield block up could heal you for damage blocked, or rage spent, or something tied to the absorb itself. Heals you AND gives you the absorb.

If class designers don't want to add a self-heal component to prot warriors so that they feel distinct, then something else about them will have to change. The manner in which victory rush procs without talenting for a consistent self heal, or a better ratio of damage reduction from ignore pain to get us the stagger-level phys damage mitigation. Similar to monks. They have just enough self healing, only just enough, AND a very strong consistent method of reducing their damage intake via stagger. Nevertheless, without a healer they'll die. But much slower than a warrior. If warriors can't heal through it then they're going to have to muscle through it. An extra charge of shield block? Maybe.

A self heal component tied to demoralizing shout could be interesting as well - heals in a cooldown window if you plan your rage right.

But it can't be a talent, It has to be baseline. That or it has to bake into one of the already mandatory talents - but that would just push out all the other talents in that row into obscurity, i don't think that's the answer. No, a talent tweak won't fix this in my opinion.

The spec is not unsalvageable and it doesn't need an overhaul or a complete rework. It's quite close. But there's a surviveability aspect that isn't quite dialed in. In my opinion it comes down to better shield block uptime or a self heal, and i'd prefer the self heal. Something linked to ignore pain to keep the rage-spending decision impactful because that's the class fantasy and concept. I'm a warrior. Rage is my resource. I spend my rage to survive, and when i have too much i use it to deal damage. A choice between mitigation and healing is all there really is for tanks. The only tank that sort of breaks this rule is monk - they run a tally of stored damage and decide to take it or drink it way. If warriors were granted an ignore pain bar that worked in a similar fashion - you store up damage and then either ignore it or take it - that might be intriguing as well. But it might step on monk's toes too much so perhaps not.

In any case, these are some ideas i have had in playing a protection warrior so far. They way to get this class fixed is to try and make meaningful suggestions rather than staring incredulously at developers and asking why they haven't fixed it yet. One of the previous blue posts said it - they're a little stumped on what to do. So I hope this helps get the gears turning.
09/22/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Culin
Impending Victory:
Impending Victory requiring deathblows to reset will always make it a poor choice for tanks. Protection Warrior's forte isn't damage, and requiring a deathblow to cast a moderate self-heal as a tank spec doesn't make much sense. It's a potentially powerful talent that has a lot of utility. Allowing it to reset on enemy damaged death would make it a much more powerful and competitive talent within its row, and an excellent 5 man sustain talent. You could even keep or increase the rage cost component to keep it more balanced. This is a talent I would love to pick up but the limitations have always kept it weak.


This should be made baseline for all warriors since it frees up that talent space for something else (for both prot and arms, fury just gets a usable heal next to bloodthirst). This would mean victory rush is removed from the game to make room for IpV. I've always said that a legion legendary can easily fill those spots and it would not require much work, for prot warriors either legion gloves or bracers and for arms warrior legion shoulders.

09/22/2018 10:11 AMPosted by Culin
One of our biggest problems is our active mitigation actually requires rage. Hear me out. While all the tank specs require you to build up resources to spend on active mitigation, Protection Warrior and Druid are the only ones that start at 0 and have to build ourselves up from there. Everyone else starts with resources at maximum and can go into fights and more easily get their active mitigation available.

I think this is a simple fix. Shield Block should not cost rage and only be limited by cooldown. Ignore Pain and Revenge should be our rage spenders. This way we can more easily go into fights with active mitigation rolling and have more things to do. You'd spend rage on big ticket items that matter rather than having to spend it on casts you can't manage because of low rage returns. This has a side benefit of slightly nerfing Anger Management which is overwhelming the spec.


You are missing another point here, the uptime of shield block. The duration is very short and the cooldown too long. Yeah I can lower it with haste but that is merely a band-aid. Increasing the duration, lowering the cooldown or adding a 3rd charge would greatly help prot warriors with physical mitigation.
there should have been a hotfix at least 2 weeks ago!
It's such a shame what this dev team became the last years. Arms Warri PvP patches, but still no PvE changes for the ****** up Protection Warrior and Guardian Druid, what for ******* are working in Irvine? You should play the game by yourself and test all the specs, then you would realize what a ******* you serve us.
09/21/2018 09:45 PMPosted by Barlar
@Lore Tankspot is rolling in its grave. You would have been one of the communities loudest most articulate voices on the so many issues right now, but instead you are putting out the same non-answer fluff you used to hate


Man I miss tankspot Xav Sat Cider etc
"I'd also like to submit the argument that, while class balance certainly isn't perfect right now, it's also the beginning of an expansion, which is *always* a bit shaky for class balance. "
The game has been out since 2004 so I am just curios why there are still such issues with class balance in each expansion? Is it due to lack of player feedback during beta testing or is there some other reason that its still an issue after all these years such as unforeseen issues with new talents and or traits?
Just make these changes:
1. Shield Block no longer costs rage and the cooldown has been reduced to 9 seconds. The shield slam bonus damage has been reduced to 15% to keep the damage similar with the cooldown reduced. The chance to critically block has also been reduced by 45% to avoid making mastery overpowered.
2. Warriors can now block any damage that armor is capable of mitigating. There is no reason not to have this as we are weak to physical ranged attacks while all the other tanks can use their physical mitigation tools for it.
3. Protection Warriors now have 15% additional stamina. This is multiplicative with the other stamina bonuses.
4. Protection Warriors now have half of the power of Anger Management as baseline. The talent has been nerfed by half to compensate.
5. Avatar will reduce the cooldown of Thunder Clap in half baseline for Protection Warriors. The talent will now only increase the damage.
Number 1, 2, and 3 are required to make Prot Warrior competitive. Number 4 and 5 aren't really needed, but are more to make the other two choices on their respective rows more viable.
09/21/2018 11:07 PMPosted by Ramayana
Everyone who played a Prot Warrior in beta told you all that it was terrible and you didn't listen. If you guys haven't realized it yet, almost every major issue was pointed out by the playerbase in beta, and you didn't listen. It's the same story every time, things are broken, players tell you it's broken, even give tons of ideas on how to fix it, and you refuse to listen.


so much this!! I remember reading all the quality feedback from testers, and none of it was even considered. I also remember when they removed IP, brought it back nerfed and tada!! /sad
The most frustrating part of Ions Reddit Q&A was when he said something like, we are flying blindly in the beta.

No you are not, you have a beta forum with thousands of players from every specc, every skill level and every player goal. The only precondition is to actually read the feedback and communicate with them while the development is going on.

You don't have the right to come afterwards and say we are flying blindly when you have literally hundreds of threads for every classes problem. I was in alpha, i was in beta and now i'm on the extended Beta for Azeroth on live servers. The Artifact Weapons and legendaries were a bandaid to many issues the classes had. With the removal of them and pruning more abilities how do you even imagine that the classes will be ok?

The best example is in Slow. Guardians had the Bloody Paws talent in their Artifact Weapon tree which gave them the ability to slow/snare mobs in order to be able to kite. Now there is nothing. Imagine a tank who even can't slow the adds, he has to face tank ALL the damage. How is this possible? I really don't understand

Guardian Druids and Prot warriors are racing each other to the bottom in Mythic+ Tanking. https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-bfa-1/all/world/leaderboards/1#role=tank:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=10

Just when the players are saying BfA couldn't get any worse, the Devs surprise as with a "Hold my beer" move and nerf Taunt.

/slowclap
Okay I'm not going to assume I know the intricacies of game balance or how much testing it takes to rework a failing class. What I don't understand is - if you're planning some massive overhaul that takes more than a hotfix to throw out why don't you do some kind of temporary change that makes the class perform a bit better?

You could increase the IP shield + % reduction. Reduce damage taken as prot by like 5%. That would make them temporarily better and is not a hard fix to do. Or how about taking a sec off shield block. Or increasing mastery %'s. If its overpowered and they become too powerful just dial it back a bit. If you've got a rework in the works give people a small buff now, then change it via rework.

But no, instead you just let a class be unviable! You make no attempt to give anybody playing 1 out of 6 of your tank class (arguably 2) any sort of deliverance. Can we get a blue post explaining why they cant do these small QOL changes and must wait months for a big one instead?

If you feel like your class balance is utterly lacking, why not make swift changes to help remediate the situation?
You guys missed the memo? Prot was removed from the game. They brought back Gladiator spec. You're doing it wrong if thought you were supposed to be tanking. Silly warriors thinking they are tanks......yeah.
Beta was a strange place for prot warriors. After ignore pain was removed many were happy and hoping things would get changed for the better but instead last minute everything was just pushed forward and the spec felt half finished.

The best thing to come out of beta was avatar + thunder clap spam. Fun, visual and added extra value to talents eg anger management.

For me prot came out with just way too much defensive buttons to cover way too many bases.

Why do you have ignore pain if spell reflect has a magic damage reduction. Furthermore doesn’t last stand do a similiar job

Why have shield block if demo shout also reduced damage.

For me, merging abilities would be a start.

baseline
Anger management - this is too good of a talent and adds value to the entire rotation. At this point it should be baseline and used to make the spec run more smoothly

Remove and merge
1. Ignore pain merged with last stand. They both do similar jobs and if anger management is reducing their CD then isn’t that a win win

2. Demo shout. If the debut is needed then apply it to thunder clap. If the spell is needed add it to talents. Maybe get it to replace indomitable as a talent plus the rage component.

3. Devastate - what is the function of this attack anymore. Can’t this just become a talent that does something and make devastor baseline.

Talents
1. Remove best served cold and replace it with ravenger. I agree with one of the forum posts that this is where ravenger should be and honestly best served cold is not needed

2. Indomitable and never surrender just see really weak in comparison to bolster. I would place demo shout here with the rage gain as well as heavy Repercussions.

3. Now you have an entire 90 and 100 talent row free. What could go here?

Prot needs many things but I don’t think more buttons is a good idea. Making anger management baseline then creating talents built around that would be a good idea. Right now prot main points of identity should be:
Shield based attacks and defendes (shield block, shield slam, shield wall)
Rage reduction (anger management)
Socking damage (last stand)
Some excellent suggestions in here. /proud.
09/21/2018 03:16 PMPosted by Lore
09/21/2018 02:51 PMPosted by Starcasm
Just curious but why can't you speak to any plans for the patch? You explained the tooltips for the proposed ele shaman changes, but can't speak about warriors? Or is it that there is nothing changing in the patch for warriors?

Few reasons. Partially because I'm not a class designer, so I don't make those decisions. But also because the class team themselves haven't decided yet. We agree Prot Warriors need love, but aren't 100% decided on exactly what form those changes will take, which also means we don't know if it'll need to be in a patch or not. The Elemental changes require a patch, otherwise we'd just hotfix them in.

Regarding this upcoming tuning pass, I wouldn't expect it to be something that solves every Prot Warrior grievance, but it should hopefully help while we look into potential further adjustments.

09/21/2018 02:51 PMPosted by Starcasm
Hate to say it (and hate to nail it to you Lore) but class imbalance is very very bad right now. I think most of us don't want classes that are OP or overtuned-- but we would like to see them fluid enough and competitive enough that we can feel comfortable that our individual investment will ensure us a spot and a chance at current WoW content.

Class balance is definitely a sore spot right now, both in community feedback and our own internal discussions. We're working on it. It's a delicate thing; we want to solve the issue of players feeling like their class is undesired, but we also want to avoid the opposite issue where everyone feels like they need to reroll to whatever the new hotness is every few weeks (side note, that's part of why we do tuning adjustments in batches rather than every few days, to give things a little time to stabilize before the next round).

I'd also like to submit the argument that, while class balance certainly isn't perfect right now, it's also the beginning of an expansion, which is *always* a bit shaky for class balance. There are absolutely outliers on either side of the spectrum, with some buffs and most likely some nerfs incoming, but aside from those few cases, our data (based on hundreds of thousands of boss kills, arena matches, etc) is showing that class balance isn't that far out of whack from how things were at the start of Legion, or Warlords, or Mists, etc.

But like I said, we're working on it, and will have more to share soon.


I love how most answers to questions are because "I am not a class leader" or something along the lines of "it's up for discussion". This is the biggest MMORPG out there and I feel like Blue doesn't give a load until a problem is out in the open so bad that people bail ship. BETA knowledge is thrown out the window every release. Minor changes come from 100% needed balances and it's like you have a team of one who answers questions until it's I am not a class designer or something along the lines of it will be in another patch. I'm a destro warlock main and I am even crying out for Spriest because of the state they're in, and guess what I'm not a class designer. Same goes for prot warrior and SHAMANS in general. Is it really that hard to say yea, we dropped the whole ball court and a fix is coming to something? soon?!
09/23/2018 05:32 AMPosted by Flexeçutie
Some excellent suggestions in here. /proud.


Million dollar question is gonna be will blizz listen to our feedback, or just do their own thing and by some chance make prot even worse.

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