Why Does Genocide Matter-Now?

Wyrmrest Accord
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09/22/2018 12:06 PMPosted by Liotuse
in this house we stan the hellrunner/windscream ship


sylvanas is literally a possessed corpse
I'm still really perplexed how anyone could think anything can exist completely independent of context.

Especially since it's so common to use narrative stuff from WoW and elsewhere as allegory for vile real-world crap and then claim "no no it's just fantasy" while snickering. Quite a bit of that goes on in this server's community alone.

Like, if you're down with the Banshee Queen, I don't think anybody's going to say you specifically want to burn cities IRL but if people start questioning your motives, well, there's a long precedent of unpleasant behavior that make that a valid response. It might pay to keep this in mind.
I will have an ice cream sandwich

Not a typical ice cream sandwich but rather a giant poo of soft serve in a sub

In keeping with my faction themes it is also entirely vanilla
09/22/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Zenztli
09/22/2018 12:06 PMPosted by Liotuse
in this house we stan the hellrunner/windscream ship


sylvanas is literally a possessed corpse

they could share custody

;)
I love the Empire in SWTOR, obviously I must be The Senate in disguise.
09/22/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Azhaar
I'm still really perplexed how anyone could think anything can exist completely independent of context.


It doesn't, but saying "trying to defend the actions of a video game villain as justified" is on the same footing as "Holocaust denial" is not...

It just isn't that.
09/22/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Borgg
It doesn't, but saying "trying to defend the actions of a video game villain as justified" is on the same footing as "Holocaust denial" is not...


Sure, those are clearly not the same thing. But I don't think it's wrong to observe parallels where they are relevant. Especially since the first one is used not infrequently as a dogwhistle for the second.
I mean if we look hard enough I am sure we could find real world parallels to all sorts of things in WoW. Or any media. I guess for me personally I kind of take things as they are unless there is blatant intent to link them. I don't go out of my way to apply connections when it is obvious that there was no intention to draw comparisons.

I don't think anyone in the writer's room was thinking, "hey maybe this will open up a dialogue about real life atrocities" any more than any other form of entertainment does. Unless said form of entertainment was presented specifically to do so. This is a zombie queen killing a bunch of tree elves.

Remember that quest where those mobs were forcing the relocation of murlocs and were forcing them to trudge along? No one was drawing parallels to the Bataan Death March, though they could have.

Sometimes a story is just a story. People don't always have to look for a deeper meaning when there isn't one and some of the accusations presented in this thread are really, really reaching.
09/22/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Azhaar
Like, if you're down with the Banshee Queen, I don't think anybody's going to say you specifically want to burn cities IRL but if people start questioning your motives, well, there's a long precedent of unpleasant behavior that make that a valid response. It might pay to keep this in mind.
why would anyone question your motives because you like a cool zombie queen running around blowing stuff up with her zombie pals?

Do you ask why people like the walking dead, or horror movies, or villains in the books they read? Do you ask why people are Snape fans? You can like an appreciate villains and their henchmen without actually being a butthole irl.
I guess what's subjective here is what's reaching. Some of these parallels seem brazen and impossible to miss to the point I can't help suspecting some of them are deliberate. Clearly, not everyone had that reaction. Clearly, I'm not the only one who did.
I do not think the Burning of Teldrassil is analogous to real life atrocities any more than I would look at a real life atrocity and say, "boy this reminds me of the Burning of Teldrassil."

But again, that's just me. If others feel differently, they have every right to hold their own opinions. Where it starts to get ugly is when people apply their conclusions towards other people, ie- "justifying Sylvanas' actions in the context of WoW is equal to saying that genocide is ok IRL." That - to me- is reaching. If someone says flat-out, "Sylvanas is right and so was (insert your favorite despot)," that is an entirely different story.

But no one did that here.
I just assume WoW lore is gonna be wicked shallow from the start, and anything that goes beyond that is a nice surprise.
is being uncomfortable with people trying to justify genocide [even if its in a fictional sense, its still heavy mang] really that wild of a concept

where am i

how many uncomfortable guilds along the lines of "we must purge the other Dirty Races" [i.e an unfortunate lot of scarlets, that one weird belf guild from a bit ago, etc etc] end up being horrible people in real life, too

while there is an obvious distinction between fiction and reality, the thoughts and opinions you have carry over into your writing. you might not intend to come off as anything particularly heinous, but you still can

once again, if your argument starts with "heres how the genocide was okay" you dont get to speak
Tulips you keep expressing my thoughts much better than I am. Imma let you take over.
09/22/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Tulips
is being uncomfortable with people trying to justify genocide [even if its in a fictional sense, its still heavy mang] really that wild of a concept

where am i

how many uncomfortable guilds along the lines of "we must purge the other Dirty Races" [i.e an unfortunate lot of scarlets, that one weird belf guild from a bit ago, etc etc] end up being horrible people in real life, too

while there is an obvious distinction between fiction and reality, the thoughts and opinions you have carry over into your writing. you might not intend to come off as anything particularly heinous, but you still can

once again, if your argument starts with "heres how the genocide was okay" you dont get to speak


So anyone who has any piece of merchandise that says, "The Empire did nothing wrong" is just a fascist then? Look I get people are sensitive to this but I also think people are taking it above and beyond.

But I also don't think this is a topic where anyone who thinks one way is going to convince the other. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I don't think that having a different one makes any of us bad people.

Pretty much every faction has said "we have to destroy those dirty [other factions]" at least a dozen times.

And again, context matters, because anyone "justifying genocide" is doing it within the confines of the game, not universally applying a defense to it anywhere else. That's all I meant about reaching. Of course people have the right to feel uncomfortable. But people have just as much of a right to not think it is that big of a deal in relation to "this is very specifically in the context of a video game."

I am also hesitant to go along with the idea of, "if someone says something I disagree with then they forfeit any right to say so."
09/22/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Tulips
while there is an obvious distinction between fiction and reality, the thoughts and opinions you have carry over into your writing. you might not intend to come off as anything particularly heinous, but you still can
Most of the people who play WoW and play Horde aren't writers themselves. And lots of people who play WoW don't really care about the details of the lore or get super attached to characters beyond "Big Man Look Cool", so if they don't have a problem suplexing Teldrassil, it doesn't really say anything about them as a person.

Also, not sure why we'd assume people who are down with writing bad stuff would necessarily be bad people. Stephen King writes horrible stories all the time, but seems like a cool dude in real life.

I don't really know Wyrmrest's history of wack guilds run by wack people, but I do think it's a little odd to be skeptical of someone's character (not the game kind) based on whether or not they feel bad for night elves and draenei.
Too bad, I'm gonna be a Night Warrior-skinned kaldorei and I'm going to purge the undead.
09/22/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Ohtion
Too bad, I'm gonna be a Night Warrior-skinned kaldorei and I'm going to purge the undead.
If they get to be paladins I'm gonna lose my mind and roll one immediately
09/22/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Ohtion
Too bad, I'm gonna be a Night Warrior-skinned kaldorei and I'm going to purge the undead.


So you're ok with genocide then?
09/22/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Borgg
So anyone who has any piece of merchandise that says, "The Empire did nothing wrong" is just a fascist then? Look I get people are sensitive to this but I also think people are taking it above and beyond.

But I also don't think this is a topic where anyone who thinks one way is going to convince the other. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I don't think that having a different one makes any of us bad people.
bit of an exaggeration. while one jokey 'the empire did nothing wrong' shirt is all fine and dandy [i make plenty of 'garrosh was just a big dumb jock' jokes myself] the point i'm trying to make here is theres a point where it goes past just fun jokes

as a personal example, i adore sylvanas as a character. i'll admit most of my adoration stems from her wc3-wotlk characterization, but i still like her

however i fully accept that she's like, absolutely 100% a villain now. i might make the occasional offhanded joke about her being right, but past that i still know she's a villain, and don't try to weirdly justify anything heinous she does, and instead just enjoy this wacky mustache-twirling monster shes become

you can like villains! when it goes past the point of liking villains and acknowledging they're evil to the point you're trying to, somehow, rationalize that genocide was okay or whatever other heinous act is justified because XYZ then its... bad, and uncomfortable for everyone involved

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