Why Does Genocide Matter-Now?

Wyrmrest Accord
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09/19/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Lianshí
Sargares wiped out entire planets and races of people who fell to corruption.

The Devil does a lot of really bad stuff so honestly I don't understand why anyone would ever be mad when a human being did bad stuff.

I mean, is anything really that bad if the Devil does it?
the same way we did with Star Wars though.


Wait, are you one of the people that boycotted The Force Awakens?
Random aside, but while I can appreciate the notion that people need to be able to divorce themselves from story, I don't actually like the idea that "It's just a story" is a valid reason to shake your head at people who are getting into it.

Art, literature, and media has been a massive driving force in societal evolution since cave wall paintings. Very smart people cite the reason they want to colonize distant worlds is they believed in a Star Trek utopia. 1984 is often referenced as "It wasn't supposed to be an instructional manual!" in modern politics. That's two quick examples in the 30 seconds I care about posting this.

Yeah okay, I don't think too-too many people are going to want to change the world because of beliefs they formed over World of Warcraft but damn.
09/20/2018 08:44 AMPosted by Suhtrokk
Random aside, but while I can appreciate the notion that people need to be able to divorce themselves from story, I don't actually like the idea that "It's just a story" is a valid reason to shake your head at people who are getting into it.

Art, literature, and media has been a massive driving force in societal evolution since cave wall paintings. Very smart people cite the reason they want to colonize distant worlds is they believed in a Star Trek utopia. 1984 is often referenced as "It wasn't supposed to be an instructional manual!" in modern politics. That's two quick examples in the 30 seconds I care about posting this.

Yeah okay, I don't think too-too many people are going to want to change the world because of beliefs they formed over World of Warcraft but damn.


...star trek is for nerds.
09/20/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Borgg
09/20/2018 08:44 AMPosted by Suhtrokk
Random aside, but while I can appreciate the notion that people need to be able to divorce themselves from story, I don't actually like the idea that "It's just a story" is a valid reason to shake your head at people who are getting into it.

Art, literature, and media has been a massive driving force in societal evolution since cave wall paintings. Very smart people cite the reason they want to colonize distant worlds is they believed in a Star Trek utopia. 1984 is often referenced as "It wasn't supposed to be an instructional manual!" in modern politics. That's two quick examples in the 30 seconds I care about posting this.

Yeah okay, I don't think too-too many people are going to want to change the world because of beliefs they formed over World of Warcraft but damn.


...star trek is for nerds.


PERHAPS IT IS YOU, BORGG, WHO IS THE NERD
09/20/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Borgg
...star trek is for nerds.


We fightin'
09/20/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Taalva
Sissification? Really?

It's a pretty common sort of language among the extreme-misogyny segments of the internet, and moderately common (partly via overlap) among the extreme-racism segments of the internet.

It's always rather interesting when someone takes those linguistic tics to other places, though, as it gives insight into what sort of content they often consume.
09/20/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Taalva
the same way we did with Star Wars though.


Wait, are you one of the people that boycotted The Force Awakens?


You know I paid to see the movie to give it one last chance. Didnt enioy it, really wish I had boycotted it.

Now im just unsure of what makes that universe so sterile, the fact that they gutted most of the EU or the 2 dimensional plot or the inconsistencies of the directors.

Solo was good though, I didnt mind Rogue One as much either, but its pretty sad that the standalones are more interesting than the official "main" movies.
09/20/2018 08:47 AMPosted by Vashta
09/20/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Borgg
...

...star trek is for nerds.


PERHAPS IT IS YOU, BORGG, WHO IS THE NERD


....WHAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!
/SHAMED
09/20/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Taalva
Sissification? Really?
I learned a new term the other day “soyboy” I sorta love all these new words. When people use soyboy or alpha male or sissification unironically I can just smell the axe body spray and the stank or 4 day old sweat. But not really because no one uses these terms outside the internet uses these terms which I’m thankful for.

So in conclusion I wouldn’t take anyone seriously that talks about SJW take over or sissifications in my day to day so why would we listen to this guy on a forum?
09/20/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Darayavaus
09/20/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Taalva
Sissification? Really?
I learned a new term the other day “soyboy” I sorta love all these new words. When people use soyboy or alpha male or sissification unironically I can just smell the axe body spray and the stank or 4 day old sweat. But not really because no one uses these terms outside the internet uses these terms which I’m thankful for.

So in conclusion I wouldn’t take anyone seriously that talks about SJW take over or sissifications in my day to day so why would we listen to this guy on a forum?


Oh trust me I'm well enough aware of those corners of the internet (I regularly read wehuntedthemammoth.com) enough that I have a list of buzzwords that, when I see them, are a clue that I can safely ignore the rest of the post.
It's hard to apply human morality to creatures that are thousands of years old, have had the vast majority of their emotions robbed from them by being slaughtered, raised into undeath and having their magical chains broken, and a plethora of inhuman monsters coming from cultures centered around conflict, war and survival.

I'm gonna pause for a sec and compare this game to ESO.
There's a faction war going on at the point in the timeline of the ES universe during ESO.
Large-scale slaughter and conflict, as well as frequent slavery, is a constant.
The races, however, still manage to get along quite well on an individual level, with numerous in-game communities consisting of members from numerous races belonging to different allegiances.
This is because those races have been coexisting with one another for thousands upon thousands of upon thousands of years. There are [I]terrible[/I] things that have happened between them in the past, but it's looked upon as distant history.

The events of every Warcraft game we have played have occurred within the span of a single human lifetime.
Our characters are currently in the midst in what is very much so a time of change and revolution. Ancient societies like the elf and troll empires are finally getting rocked to their foundations.
There have been numerous genocides, several wars, and other atrocities and cataclysmic events occurring back-to-back-to-back, all within the span of a single human lifetime.

These are all wounds that are very fresh in the minds of those races that participated in them. It's why I can't see peace as being possible at the moment.
The vast majority of the Alliance will always hate the orcs for having sacked their kingdoms and lands
The vast majority of the orcs will resent the humans for placing them in the internment camps and destroying their culture. Did they deserve it after their bloodthirsty rampage over the first two wars? Perhaps, but the orcs certainly don't think so.
Trolls will always hate humans, dwarves and elves for slaughtering them by the thousands and stealing their lands, and those races will always hate the collective troll races for being the embodiment of savagery and bloodthirst in their eyes and constantly being a nuisance in the lands they believed they rightfully settled.
Are trolls all monsters? Certainly not, they're a people trying to survive. Are those three races terrible for killing off the race that refuses to coexist with them, and defending themselves? No. But whatever side you're viewing it from will give you their viewpoint, and nothing else.

You can't expect to have this stupidly high amount of bad blood and not have something drastic happen.
We as players know genocide is terrible and that Sylvanas is evil for doing it.
The average orc or troll was thinking about that hatred in the back of their skulls.

And when the Alliance finally does something to the Horde, and as much as Enekie and the others love to scream faction bias, they will, I'll say the exact same thing once again if Horde players get in an uproar about it.
09/20/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Darayavaus
I learned a new term the other day “soyboy” I sorta love all these new words.

I love that one because it's based on a huge failure to understand biology. It's supposed to be referring to how soy has "estrogen" in it, meaning people who eat lots of soy "become like women" (implied to be a bad thing cause misogyny, of course).

This neglects that the specific compound in soy is a phytoestrogen that is named as such due to its similar molecular structure. The molecule is not able to interact with or bond with animal estrogen receptors at all, as it's not composed of the right atoms in the right places -- it just looks similar, if you squint at it, essentially.

So basically, they took something that just looks vaguely like estrogen, assumed it's the same thing, and crafted a hilarious failure of an insult from it.

09/20/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Taalva
(I regularly read wehuntedthemammoth.com)

I lurk there fairly frequently, myself.
09/20/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Balghur
Its really just WRA that the amount of tumblr is so concentrated. Most of the playerbase takes WoW for what it is, I think. That is a high fantasy Warhammer knockoff thats fun when you want to take a break from more complex fandoms.

We may yet see a sissification of WoW and an obstruction of its core in the same way we did with Star Wars though.


guys the SJWs are ruining our video game genocides
09/20/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Itarater
09/20/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Darayavaus
I learned a new term the other day “soyboy” I sorta love all these new words.

I love that one because it's based on a huge failure to understand biology. It's supposed to be referring to how soy has "estrogen" in it, meaning people who eat lots of soy "become like women" (implied to be a bad thing cause misogyny, of course).

This neglects that the specific compound in soy is a phytoestrogen that is named as such due to its similar molecular structure. The molecule is not able to interact with or bond with animal estrogen receptors at all, as it's not composed of the right atoms in the right places -- it just looks similar, if you squint at it, essentially.

So basically, they took something that just looks vaguely like estrogen, assumed it's the same thing, and crafted a hilarious failure of an insult from it.

09/20/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Taalva
(I regularly read wehuntedthemammoth.com)

I lurk there fairly frequently, myself.
My understanding is that soy increases the risk of prostate cancer
Soyboy sounds like salty boy because soy is salty
09/20/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Topsail
Soyboy sounds like salty boy because soy is salty


Whether you use soyboy or sissyboy you will inevitably have saltybois.
I started using soyboy unironically a year ago to my friends as like a "You dork" and then was educated further on the implications. I don't use it anymore which is a shame because it rhymes and I like things that rhyme.

Now I just call people walnuts again.
09/20/2018 05:53 AMPosted by Pärker
09/20/2018 02:06 AMPosted by Serph
However, Sef is right. It's not a right with infinite right to criticism. If someone comes to a baseball stadium and then loudly and indignantly complains that it's not a football game, they don't get to complain when the rest of the crowd gets judgmental at them.


Baseball and Football exist. Real world history exists. Fictional worlds don't. You are comparing elements of the story to something that exists which ultimately doesn't work because there is no hard truth to the fictional worlds.

Using the story or the diegetic elements of said story as a way to ridicule or dismiss the criticism of the story is just you trying to combat it on unfair grounds.

You're trying to stop the criticism because the story says it's okay, even though that's not the point. The world might be built upon genocidal acts but that doesn't mean it's not beholden to criticism. Fictional worlds aren't real, the only way anything exists at all is because it was written by real people. The only thing that matters is how such writing relates to the people consuming the product.

Nothing exists to justify the rules of a fictional space. Writers routinely will change their own rules to better fit the needs of the story and WoW definitely does a lot of that within it's own canon.

It's like justifying bikini armor because it's fantasy and that's how some tribe of warriors wear their get-up, never mind the sexist implications of such a thing. You're using the same faulty argument here, but just in the context of genocide and people having problems with it.

All these arguments do is try to shut down the arguments and criticisms against a world basing their arguments with the world itself, when the world has no truthful backdrop.

You are just trying to shut down someone's opinion, not actually challenge or combat it with anything meaningful or worthwhile.


Congrats on showing why I usually state that WrA has extremely poor reading comprehension. My argument wasn't in response to any criticism of the story but rather a response to the statement of "The game devs don't get to tell me how to enjoy the game," which is patently false and impresses a personal opinion of what a game should be over the stated intent of the creators. It's an argument against "I shouldn't have to care about the 'war' in 'Warcraft,'" not the arguments about whether or not that story telling is being done well.

In a lot of cases on the actual story ability, I largely agree with the likes of Enekie and Ursuola that it hasn't been done all that well and has a great tonal shift from what people like about Warcraft. However, the idea that you can simply ignore that the IP is about, well, war is utterly ridiculous.

09/20/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Itarater
09/19/2018 11:18 PMPosted by Serph
Players deep in the game, especially on RP servers, aren't known for their ability to separate real life from that of a video game story, let alone separating real life morality for the one the story is trying to tell.

Oh come on. This issue is clearly one of people not finding genocide to be a fun story, in a game that's supposed to be fun. This has !@#$ all to do with being "separating real life" from fiction.

It's that genocide is not fun, not that people who disagree with you are unable to tell fiction an reality apart. What a hideously disqualifying opening to an opinion.


As someone who has published two books, several other shorts, has served as an Editor-in-Chief at multiple publications, taught classes on writing, and will likely be the person people are sending their manuscripts to in a couple of years in the hopes I choose to pick it up, I am absolutely one of the most qualified--if not THE most qualified--person on these forums to state when people are making poor literary critique.

Many of the arguments here are infusing real-world moralities and political connections, which is great if you're reviewing something like Salman Rushdie, but a very poor idea in any context of a fantasy world where understanding character perspectives and authorial intent in world building are important.

Again, that does not dismiss critiques over whether or not Blizzard is doing that well. Many of those are valid. Even the idea of "Genocide isn't fun" is a valid complaint. But if you're arguing whether it makes sense from the story perspective, then it's damn important you are using that story's POV and not your own.
Hi all. Pardon for skipping over half the OP, and most responses. I just wanted to breeze through real quick.

There's not a whole lot to not get about the issue. It's been covered, thoroughly. Repeatedly. To borrow a phrase, "we have this thread every day".

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