San'layn/Darkfallen MEGATHREAD PART NINE

General Discussion
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Hi all, the last thread capped at 500 posts. This is a continuation of the topic!


Thanks everyone for contributing so much and supporting this race! You're all wonderful, and despite some trolling and insults, we will continue! Note here: Please read everything in the post before responding, we do address many issues in this post brought up by people that end up not reading this stuff at all. If you don't care to read it, don't bother commenting.

IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!! If you want to see a video made that includes an artist who modified models with our ideas for this, see here! https://youtu.be/qrbHc-v1PDE

Allied Race Congregation, crossroads discord: https://discord.gg/bSgETFY

The Big Question: Could San'layn be an Allied Race in Battle for Azeroth? We discussed wanting them added, but they have potential to actually be a thing now! This thread is to show support and share ideas. Please read it entirely before jumping to conclusions! We have a disclaimer below for those concerned about there being "more elves".

DISCLAIMER: We understand that many want to see other Allied races first and by no means are asking for San'layn before or instead of others. This is just a speculation thread for sharing ideas and such.

ALSO! Please do not enter our Discord and start cussing and spreading racial slurs. It is very immature and I am not happy about certain individuals that have done so. I'm aware that some disagree, but let's be mature about the matter.
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We have a discord now too! Please see: https://discord.gg/r3Ckpb8

Nobbel's video on San'layn lore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiUtJaXyxio&t
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Original Ideas

The Story
Let's start off with debunking the myth that all San'layn are extinct. While their numbers are likely low, we understand that a race with a small population can still be played perfectly fine by the playerbase--see Blood Elves and especially the new Void Elves.

Ren'dorei are a small section of the Sin'dorei, in fact, that ended up being exiled. Take a tiny fragment of an already extremely small population and make an entire race out of that! Blizzard has done it once and they can do it again if it makes sense. But back to the extinct issue (SPOILER: which is no longer an issue, anyway, due to their showing up in BfA.). Now, we've seen major San'layn leaders destroyed by the heroes of Azeroth, most notably Lana'thel. But we know that not all were actually killed off--the Blood Princess in the Legion expansion is a good example of this. While we do kill her in Violet Hold, she is a good indication that the race is still there and did not suddenly keel over dead upon the death of Lana'thel (a ridiculous notion anyway).

I'd like to mention the missing Blood Princes; see: https://wow.gamepedia.com/San%27layn . I will mention their names here, too: Prince Theraldis, Prince Atherann, and Blood Lord Vorath (he was in the TCG so might not be considered in lore itself, I am not sure on that one.) Any one of the above could be ambassadors for the San'layn joining either faction of the current dynamic (I will get into what faction I see them joining in a moment....SPOILER: BfA says a big flag for going red!)

We see the highest concentration of San'layn in En'kilah, where we are tasked with offing Prince Valanar. There is a huge concentration of NPC San'layn there, and while many of them could have been wiped out, a few could have survived and avoided detection to further work for the Lich King, only to have their wills freed upon Arthas being slain. I will get more into the discussion of 'will' in a moment as well. But anyway, the concentration of San'layn were only seen as NPCs there as well. We never saw the Ren'dorei in any location, including Ghostlands, until right when they were introduced, and they were inserted as potentially being in Ghostlands at some point in time. What's not to say a section of San'layn were hiding out somewhere in Icecrown? Or Grizzly Hills? Or other areas in the Borean Tundra? It's not that much of a stretch to say strategic forces were scattered along Northrend and then found themselves without a leader upon the death of Lana'thel and Arthas.

Now then, would their wills be bound to the new Lich King? Or could they break from the will or even have had broken from the will of Arthas (an odd sect of San'layn, anyway) like Death Knights? The Darkfallen were selected as among the most intelligent of undead. It is not a stretch to say that when the Arthas's control began to fade upon the undead, they broke from him just like the Death Knights. Many simply continued to work for him, but a few could have taken other routes or hidden.

We would have on our hands a shattered force of vampyr Blood Elves all around Northrend in this case--potentially being brought together by these princes. What would these elves seek to do? Continue to spread terror and rip people to shreds? Or could they potentially join a faction and, like the Death Knights, be accepted and integrated back into places they once called home? Remember, Death Knights were seen as mindless killing machines at one point, and we've seen that they did regain their personalities back, with one catch of course. They must continue to cause suffering in one way or another. These elves could have regained themselves with that same catch--the need, however, would be shifted to needing to feed off of living races' blood or energy. Not unlike what Blood Elves have to do in general, really, but with the San'layn they'd benefit much more from blood and its magics in general.

Let's take a look into more lore. We were introduced to more issues on the vampyr this expansion in Stormheim, most notable the vampirates. They were compared to the San'layn, as a matter of fact, which was interesting... and then Lucard enters the picture. We kill him, and he says, "I.. am not... defeated...". Then, Mrrgleton comments, "Vampyr CAN be killed, can't they?" What could this imply? Could Lana'thel potentially be brought back, should those missing princes not be used? Did she really die at all--could she have been weakened or actually have drank enough blood of the heroes to appear dead but actually manage to flee while they were taking on Arthas? Again, this is speculation on how all of this could be possible, and who their leader could be.

Now, what faction would they join? Who is the most likely to take them in? Easy. The Horde. Sylvanas needs more soldiers for her war against the alliance in the upcoming expansion(SPOILER: They already actually joined the Horde in BfA. We just... don't see them on Horde side. We just see them as having joined them via the Alliance scenario. I will get to this oddity later). Her own kind is there within the San'layn, and they'd be very powerful assets to add to her ranks. She could give them purpose again and a chance to return to society rather than hide as creatures that should be killed on sight. Sylvanas is sure to know about the San'layn and the vampyr within Stormheim. What if she journies to Northrend and sends out messages to these princes, or sends out search parties, or even is contacted by a member of the San'layn who seeks to ally with her for a number of reasons?
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Warning, there are spoilers below.

In regards to Dreven recently being slain, there's been much outcry that the dream has 'been killed'. In reality, that is not true--Blizzard first of all never said 'no' to these folk to an Allied Race, and there's so many unanswered questions...

We've been looking solely at Dreven as a focal point here, without considering the obvious--we've already 'won'. We might not have them as an Allied Race, but they're entirely possible. People in the lore and roleplay community got it through their foolish heads that all San'layn were extinct. And yet, here we are, with a Blood Prince showing up in Battle for Azeroth. So what if he's been slain. Him merely existing, with more than just him, mind you, shows that they have a presence and might continue to.

Consider me this. Either Dreven is from Wrath and a Prince we never saw before, or was created by another San'layn. Let me give scenarios for either one. If he's new, someone had to have turned him. If he's old, it means others have survived as well. There are still two missing Blood Princes, as we saw in Silverpine forest from the questline in Grizzly Hills. What does that mean, then? If the Wrath San'layn left Northrend, they could be anywhere in the world. With Dreven having been on the move, it means they likely are up to something and will show up too. And if Dreven is new, and someone turned him? Same concept applies.

Therefore, Dreven's death means nothing. He might have destroyed some Forsaken in desperation for need to feed, who knows. I hope that his betrayal isn't the case, because then it would be bleak, but we don't have the full story yet. Sylvanas blighted her own troops due to the fact that the battle was a losing one and they'd have all died anyway. Hopefully that was the case here as well.

The San'layn turning into an allied race isn't a 'no' yet, the Devs have never said such things. I wouldn't even start to despair until it happens. Unless they specifically say 'no, not EVER', I would not give up hope. We're not harming anyone by sharing ideas in this thread and supporting one another.

In addition: Allied Races have been brought up and shot down quite a bit. Yet the races being talked about the most right now: Vulpera, Sethrak, Arakkoa, Ogre, and SAN'LAYN(yeah go bats!) have not been sliced to bits yet. There's been so much hype surrounding those mentioned... and there's been so many chances to shot them down. What does this mean? No news is good news, to be honest. I'm thinking Blizz might be tight lipped in regards to the Allied Races they're thinking about to keep the hype going. I can feel it in my wings, trust me. Anyway, there's a huge amount of hope and hype yet.

The San'layn show up in the Alliance campaign as a major Horde Ally. They raise a WHOLE lot of nonsense for the Alliance to deal with. But they go unmentioned in the Horde section... there's pieces of the puzzle missing. Get your tinfoil hats on, folks.....

I predict, right now, that we'll see more of the San'layn playing a MAJOR part for the Horde coming up. A huge ally mentioned ONLY to the Alliance? Why would that be? An illusion? WHAT IS BLIZZARD HIDING?! Hah, anyway, in all seriousness... I'm thinking there's more to the story than what we're being shown, and have a lot of hope for the future. Keep flying, bats.

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And that's just it. I feel as though this thread chain has been generally positive. Sure, we've had arguments break out, like on every thread. This Allied Race is riddled with controversy, I get that. But I'm glad people at least have, for the most part, remained respectful.

I hope the maturity continues. People disagree, that's normal. But be mindful to be respectful of others. And I would request respect on other threads too, granted I can't control anyone of course, but disagreement shouldn't amount to griefing. That's exactly what trolls on this thread stoop to. Just simply rejecting an idea with solid reasons is more than enough and more effective than trolling.

11/01/2018 12:46 PMPosted by Fallynn

I wanted to recap on all of our ideas by the way.
Model Variations

-Claws
-Fangs
-Serrated Teeth
-A mouth full of sharp teeth, just carnassials like most carnivores have
-Tall, lithe model
-Blood Elf modification (Lana’thel)
-Night Elf Modification (Princes)
-Temporary or Permanent wings
-Patterned body scars
-Pulsating Blood scars
-Glowing Blood runes
-Bat-like ears
-Torn ears
-Varying ear options in general
-Black, Red, and Amber, pure white, white with a red pupil, black with a red center eye options
-Hunched over (options only, not as a base, imo)
-Black marks under their eyes like Sylvanas.
-Grey/Black/white skin
-Bandages to hide scars due to vanity

Hair
-Blood-stained Hair
-Dual colors like some of the princes

Colors:
Black
White
Red
Brown
Silver
Blue
Grey
-Mixture of Blood Elf, Night Elf, and Void Elf Hairstyles?
-Half mohawk for females
-Mohawk for males/partial mohawk
-Long hair for males (examples: Alucard from Hellsing)
-Facial Hair options

Architecture
-Examples from Blood Halls
-Necropolis
-Gothic Themed
-Castle-like
-Naxxanar reused
-Ghostlands reused
-Deathholme as a base
-Nazmir temples as a base due to blood themes

Jokes
-At least we don't sparkle either.
-What am I doing? Nothing much, just San'layin around.
-It's so hard getting dental work done when every dentist you see runs screaming.
-I vant to suck your blood! Or have it in a smoothie. That sounds nice too.
-No, we don't consume void energy--that's the Ren'dorei. Totally different emo elf.
-My favorite color is red. For the Horde, why would you think there's other reasons?
-I actually don't mind the worgen all that much, aside from their constant yapping.
-Too many elves, you say? You haven't met the murlocs yet.
-I see a black door and I want it painted red.
-You think we're hot? You haven't seen Bolvar yet, have you?
-We take the 'Blood' in 'Blood elf' very seriously.
-...Why did you throw sparkle dust on m-- oh. I get it. And I'm not laughing.
-I actually don't mind worgen all that much, they're easy to get along with if you have a stick and yell 'fetch!'.
-Why does everyone keep asking me for an Interview, and then laugh?
-What? Ok fine, just this once. Bleh! I vant to suck your blood!
-Why did I decide to become a Rogue? They wear leather. You've seen Underworld, haven't you? I look just as good in leather.
-No I don't sprout tentacles! That's the Ren'dorei. Totally different emo elf.
-I love Worgen, their fur is so soft, and fluffy, and cuddly, I could just relax on it in front of the fire pit all night.
-I don't mind a Worgen coming to visit me, their timing always coincides perfectly whenever I need a new carpet.
-I'm tired of hearing things about being a San'Layn... 'Oh your teeth are so sharp! Oh your skin is so pale!' Oh you're so damn annoying.
-We loved red so much we joined the horde, and other reasons of course.
-Nooo! I do not sparkle!
-Whats the mirror for?
-I'd flirt with you, but I'm afraid all my lines either suck or bite.
-Where'd I get this snow cone? ...Icecream Citadel.
-Nosfer-who? No... do my fangs look like a beavers to you?
-Where do we go for a snack? No not the blood bank, we just go to Snaxxramas.
-The dirty looks sometimes drive me batty.
-No, I don't like to watch you sleep, what do I look like? A freak?
-Blue is such a horrible color. why would the alliance pick it?
-I love a good fight, but usually my opponents are too drained to go in.
-Wooden stakes? Garlic? Holy water? Mere annoyances compared to tooth decay.
-Get a life? Well I suppose your's will do.
-What's the difference between a gnome and a basketball? You can't drink a basketball before you dunk it.
-Looks like it's time for a bloodbath... Why are you looking at me like that? It works wonders for your skin! I swear people are too jumpy these days, I wonder why?
-It's 'squash', not 'gnomeball.

Flirts
-Don't worry, I won't bite. At least, not unless you want me to…
-I hunger for you... not your blood, of course.
--If you were a blood type, you'd be my favorite
- Is that Bloodlust I'm sensing - or just lust?
- Is there room for two in your coffin?
- You're so beautiful I think my heart just stopped. Wow it really did!
- You're like the sun you're so hot you make my blood boil
- Will you turn into bat for me? A long, hard one?
-Do you mind if I take a bite? I want to see if you're as good inside as you are outside.
-I vant to suck your- no! Not that, your blood! Oh stop it, you’re embarrassing me!
-No, YOU suck. ... well, I mean- so do I. But, totally different sucking.
-I'm a darkfallen, but I'm so darkfallen for you.
-How about joining me for a bite?
-I suck? Oh honey you have noooooo idea.
-I think I've Darkfallen in love with you!

Racials
-Self resurrection every half hour; not applicable in PvP or PvE(?), only open world
-A % leech buff
-% Leech Proc
-Sylvanas “Banshee” form, or something similar
-Teleportation racial of some sort, like blood racial Dreven used
-Enthrall: Temporarily control an NPC or pet.
-Infiltrate: The San'layn takes the form of the target for 3 seconds, confusing them and becoming unattackable.
-Take Control: A mind control that lasts for 3 seconds.
-Soul Reflect: % damage is reflected for 3 seconds.
-Blood spatter effects on racials
-Blood mist racial mount
-Cloud of bats racial mount
-Racial ability like zen mist but they turn into blood mist


Heritage Armor

-Armor that looks to have wings like Lana’thel
-Armor similar to those that the Blood Princes wear
-Vampiric cape and collar
-Famous fanged mask
-Dracula styled armor
-Phantom of the opera themes

Class Mount
-Corpse spider
-Skeletal Hawkstrider
-Skeletal Wolf
-Decaying Wolf
-Bat (No flying?)
-Some form of Felbat model with messed up wings (prevent flying)
-Skeletal Lynx or some form of skeletal cat (could use the dark manasaber model with some skeletal modifications)

Potential Leaders
-Blood Prince Dreven resurrect
-One of the missing Blood Princes (Prince Atherann or Prince Theraldis)
-Lana’thel, resurrected
-Kael’thas, resurrected (ritualistically? His head is kinda on a pike.)
-Thal'ena ressurected
-Lucard (from Stormheim)
-An entirely new Blood Kind or Queen
Random suggestions that are unlikely but can be talked about, why not:
-Liadrin, killed and rezzed
-Romath

Potential Classes (and reasoning given)
-Warrior
-Hunter
Starting pets:
Spider
Bat
Undead Dog
Wolf/Skeletal Wolf/zombified wolf
Rotting bear
Darkhounds like Nathanos uses

-Monk (Most can be monks, if Forsaken and Void Elves can utilize the magic so shouldn’t San’layn. They could be initiated into the Horde and taught how to utilize chi energy by monks already there.)

-Rogue (Definite for San’layn, there’s already rogues in blood halls)

-Warlock (There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be able to use fel, other undead such as Forsaken can do so.)

-Priest (Forsaken can wield the light and shadow as priests, therefore it isn’t unreasonable to assume that San’layn can as well. They are powerful beings, but like the Forsaken they’d be harmed by the light when casting.)

-Mage (Blood Mages are seen in the Blood Halls, transforming their friends and laughing.)

Unlikely
-Paladin
Horseman was a paladin
Powerful undead can wield the light, though it hurts them
Light is about willpower, no being ‘just’, otherwise the Scarlet Crusade would not be able to use it
See Blizzard Blue Post: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev

-Druid
Kul’tiran Druids have a theme of undeath. Having an option like this on Hordeside would be excellent.
Nightmare magic could be expanded here. We have yet to see Nightmare being actually controlled, but the undead and those attended to fel and void have a habit of using darker magics for their own desires. Perhaps something could be done here, and we can obtain Nightmare druids with nightmarish or blood-like forms.

In popular lore, vampires have had the power to shapeshift. This could be achieved through the druid class for San’layn.
The San’layn could learn from troll allies, either from Northrend or the new Islands, if that’s where they fled out of Northrend. They could learn from the Zandilari or Blood Trolls, perhaps, and could manipulate magics to become druids. There is a bat loa--perhaps they could look into that.
Blood and life in general are connected, perhaps they could manipulate both simultaneously if they entwine it correctly.

-Death Knight (Even if not at first, perhaps sometime in the future. They were Arthas’s elite soldiers, so it would make sense for them to become Death Knights. The Blood Knight NPCs in the Blood Halls act more as Death Knights, though in living elves they are actually paladins. The Blood Knight San’layn however only possess shadow spells.)

Very unlikely
-Shaman (I don’t see how this one would work; I’m mentioning all classes however. There have not been any elf shamans in history. Does not mean it’s off the table, as Blood Shamans sound cool, but Blood is not an element.)
-Demon Hunter (There is no such lore to explain this, unless they train more Demon Hunters in the future. I do not see this as being a class for them.)

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Can't believe we're at part 9 folks, how awesome! Still going strong as a community in terms of idea sharing. Previously we had been discussing what could come next with upcoming data that was found in PTR. Spoilers below:

We seem to be interacting with Bolvar more, which could mean something for our wayward vampires. Also, it was speculated that the San'layn could be the culprits behind how the night elves are able to serve the undead, since they are indeed working with Sylvanas now as said in the War Campaign.
Previous thread here:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765917566?page=26

Also, whoops for the title error initially, sorry about that. I fixed it now, I believe.
*Pats the gothy elf*
Good luck!
Okay, I imagine this has been brought up before... but...

Consider the possibility that Horde don't meet them because they're not important to the Horde story... because the entire point of their appearance in the Alliance's War campaign was us making sure they *WEREN'T* able to establish a presence within the Horde. There was a single Blood Prince. We killed him, and all the San'layn he was creating on his ship. Presence ended.

Will Blizzard continue to do stuff with them in the future? Perhaps. But for now, there is nothing in-game that indicates "future allied race material". Hell, there's nothing to indicate there was ever any more than the ones we saw/killed.
09/22/2018 06:20 PMPosted by Harmarth
Okay, I imagine this has been brought up before... but...

Consider the possibility that Horde don't meet them because they're not important to the Horde story... because the entire point of their appearance in the Alliance's War campaign was us making sure they *WEREN'T* able to establish a presence within the Horde. There was a single Blood Prince. We killed him, and all the San'layn he was creating on his ship. Presence ended.

Will Blizzard continue to do stuff with them in the future? Perhaps. But for now, there is nothing in-game that indicates "future allied race material".


It makes no sense as to why every single new San'layn he created would be on that one ship. Besides--they are seen alive AND friendly to Hordeside toward the end of their campaign. See this thread for details: https://imgur.com/a/T16V9FZ

A single blood prince being killed, while there are still at least 2 missing and likely up to something, doesn't mean the end of a story. There wouldn't be a point to mentioning anything like they did, and there's no indication of a 'failed mission'. They got what they went to do, the loss of one guy that likely was supposed to indeed be a distraction in the first place doesn't destroy the aspect of it.
09/22/2018 06:20 PMPosted by Harmarth
Okay, I imagine this has been brought up before... but...

Consider the possibility that Horde don't meet them because they're not important to the Horde story... because the entire point of their appearance in the Alliance's War campaign was us making sure they *WEREN'T* able to establish a presence within the Horde. There was a single Blood Prince. We killed him, and all the San'layn he was creating on his ship. Presence ended.

Will Blizzard continue to do stuff with them in the future? Perhaps. But for now, there is nothing in-game that indicates "future allied race material". Hell, there's nothing to indicate there was ever any more than the ones we saw/killed.


Ok so tell me, who raised Dreven? Where did he come from? Why would he risk his entire people on a risky high seas operation?

Anyway, keep the love going
and the tears of the antis flowing
09/22/2018 06:28 PMPosted by Swiftraven
Okay, I imagine this has been brought up before... but...

Consider the possibility that Horde don't meet them because they're not important to the Horde story... because the entire point of their appearance in the Alliance's War campaign was us making sure they *WEREN'T* able to establish a presence within the Horde. There was a single Blood Prince. We killed him, and all the San'layn he was creating on his ship. Presence ended.

Will Blizzard continue to do stuff with them in the future? Perhaps. But for now, there is nothing in-game that indicates "future allied race material". Hell, there's nothing to indicate there was ever any more than the ones we saw/killed.


Ok so tell me, who raised Dreven? Where did he come from? Why would he risk his entire people on a risky high seas operation?

Anyway, keep the love going
and the tears of the antis flowing


Good point, and yeah I don't understand why people aren't thinking more deeply into this. Everyone cries, "But they're just Alliance fodder!" without looking at the bigger picture, usually because they simply don't want this as an AR.
Stop this literal spam, the same six or seven people have made over 4,500 posts off of this, what the hell else has to be said?

You will never get san'layn as an allied race

All of their leaders are dead, they don't share a skeleton with any playable race, and they're at war with both the alliance and the horde

end of this stupid discussion
09/22/2018 06:53 PMPosted by Falrogan
Stop this literal spam, the same six or seven people have made over 4,500 posts off of this, what the hell else has to be said?

You will never get san'layn as an allied race

All of their leaders are dead, they don't share a skeleton with any playable race, and they're at war with both the alliance and the horde

end of this stupid discussion

And you didn't read a thing, don't bother posting here unless you have something to say that shows that you did read the post. Don't like it? Ignore it. NEXT!

...Also, 'don't share a skeleton with any playable race'. That's rich, wrong, and yeah, shows that you don't pay attention and shouldn't bother participating in this discussion. At least actually read what's been provided until commenting, it's not that difficult.
San'layn will only be a Horde Allied race if High Elves become an Alliance allied race - ie never.
09/22/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Morthra
San'layn will only be a Horde Allied race if High Elves become an Alliance allied race - ie never.

Thanks for the bumps! We appreciate it.
09/22/2018 06:53 PMPosted by Falrogan
Stop this literal spam, the same six or seven people have made over 4,500 posts off of this, what the hell else has to be said?

You will never get san'layn as an allied race

All of their leaders are dead, they don't share a skeleton with any playable race, and they're at war with both the alliance and the horde

end of this stupid discussion


Isn't posting that more spam than the actual thread?
'Cause that's how I'm reporting it.
Now then, moving on from people who aren't actually contributing and making pointless complaints because they're incapable of ignoring the topic and moving on...

The recent things datamined on the PTR are quite interesting. What do we speculate for the continuation of the campaigns? Will we see San'layn participate in the warfront in Darkshore? Think there will be a Ghostlands warfront where we'd see them as well?
09/22/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Morthra
San'layn will only be a Horde Allied race if High Elves become an Alliance allied race - ie never.


Actually san'layn are more likely than high elves.
Blizzard hasn't said outright no to them yet.
I wouldn't mind high elves but that's a big hurdle to jump.
Jesus, part nine already this is so wonderful. <3
If we are going to get undead elves we might as well get them with some flavor.
My dark heart yearns to play a San'layn. Ever since ICC and seeing the Blood Queen.

I don't have much to add, but I appreciate and support your passion. <3
09/22/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Lullabies
My dark heart yearns to play a San'layn. Ever since ICC and seeing the Blood Queen.

I don't have much to add, but I appreciate and support your passion. <3

Thank you so much :) Actually, a topic came up about the new Blood King or Queen. It's one of our favorite subjects. Lana'thel is my favorite character, I wish she got a bit more lore to her, but ah well.

As for me? I'm still thinking the most appropriate leader would be one of the missing Blood Princes. Blood King Atherann or Blood King Theraldis.
I'm against more elves. All I have to say.
Call me curious, but how does the reveal of Patch 8.1's raising of Night Elves into undeath and as Dark Rangers factor into the San'layn fantasy/race request? The male San'layn models seem to be based on Night Elf males after all.

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