Fix class balance!

General Discussion
09/19/2018 09:33 AMPosted by Alkii
Make Demonology ok again™
Long rant short: Demo is not going to function as a spec in any kind of meaningful or challenging content as long as it is designed to need to plant for long periods, especially with how hard it is punished for prolonged movement.
09/19/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Acteon
09/19/2018 09:33 AMPosted by Alkii
Make Demonology ok again™
Long rant short: Demo is not going to function as a spec in any kind of meaningful or challenging content as long as it is designed to need to plant for long periods, especially with how hard it is punished for prolonged movement.
Literally all it would need would be for it to have a button to pause its imps.

Got to move? Pause imps. Got to go from 1 pack to the next pack? Pause imps.
They stop dealing damage and stop expiring.
09/19/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Miscast
09/19/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Acteon
... Long rant short: Demo is not going to function as a spec in any kind of meaningful or challenging content as long as it is designed to need to plant for long periods, especially with how hard it is punished for prolonged movement.
Literally all it would need would be for it to have a button to pause its imps.

Got to move? Pause imps. Got to go from 1 pack to the next pack? Pause imps.
They stop dealing damage and stop expiring.
Something like Phase Shift from ye olde days. The imp would phase out and just be passive until told to do something else. Granted back then it's purpose was to keep the imp safe until it could attack, and some would even leave it in shift to act as a mana battery (Rip, the original Dark Pact.)

So something like...
Phase Shift
1 min cd (Starts after disabling) - [mana cost]
All of your current imps phase shift. Preventing them from attacking and making them unattackable for the duration. Cast again to cancel.
09/19/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Miscast
Got to move? Pause imps. Got to go from 1 pack to the next pack? Pause imps.
They stop dealing damage and stop expiring.


This wouldn't remotely fix demo. At all. You do realize imps function off energy now right? They do a set number of attacks and that's it or they time out. Whichever comes first. This would do almost nothing to in-combat damage because there's no reason to use it in combat. Your imps and other pets are the only damage you're still doing when you have to move if you don't have MC procs.

Out of combat, okay, this would allow you to drag more imps from one combat to the next presuming you have to move a bit or you're not pulling nonstop. If you don't have to go a good distance or you do pull nonstop then this does nothing. If there is a reason to use it, it only changes only the initial ramp time you might have going into a fight, nothing else. As such no, this wouldn't remotely come close to fixing demo.

Demo needs a way to generate shards when it has to move so that it's not dead time when it doesn't have MC procs. Any second not casting for demo is lost damage, particularly if it's casting that you'd be doing to generate shards. Considering the rotation is a feedback loop to maintain critical imp mass, dead time now results in low points in the future that you can't make up. And that's all forced movement is. Whatever that method is, whether it's giving us back Demonwrath, making SB castable on the move, until it gets that or gets a huge damage buff to account for expected damage loss to forced movement it's going to underperform.
09/19/2018 08:59 AMPosted by Paladonkey
Elemental is getting reworked in 8.1 I don’t know what you are complaining about


We have been benched. Imagine not being able to raid until 8.1. Does that seem like it is fair? Why couldnt they do a temp fix to allow us in the rotation. Heck, some of us are excluded from M+10 because we lack the survivability.

This should not have made it to live.
I like instant cast Hand of Gul'dan, Dreadstalkers and Shadowbolt more. Lets do this. LOL!
09/19/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Cyouskin
The melee specs who need to ramp up are suffering too, especially Feral.
The casters who don't need to ramp-up do just fine. (Destro Warlock, despite its low ST sustain because Incinerate is a wet noodle.)


Feral is struggling even on the bosses that are supposed to be our one talent at the expense of all others (low-movement 1-2 target sustained damage).

It. is. not. a. ramping. issue.
09/19/2018 10:58 AMPosted by Hermondonia
09/19/2018 08:59 AMPosted by Paladonkey
Elemental is getting reworked in 8.1 I don’t know what you are complaining about


We have been benched. Imagine not being able to raid until 8.1. Does that seem like it is fair? Why couldnt they do a temp fix to allow us in the rotation. Heck, some of us are excluded from M+10 because we lack the survivability.

This should not have made it to live.
both dps specs for shaman suck. and i'm sure blizz knows but they just set there and do nothing to make it any better. you fail as a dev if you ain't fixing whats broken when stuff is released, not later down the road i pay for a damn toon that is at least competitive i do not pay for future patches to be okay. this mentality really just makes me want to quit wow altogether. plz fix my toons and then just leave them alone. you did do one thing in proving you suck at fixing classes after you break them for new expac. just leave my toon alone once you fix it

tired of getting wrecked at the beginning of expacs and just sitting around for fixes.
09/19/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Cyouskin
09/19/2018 09:33 AMPosted by Amoc
Sorry, that's just wrong. Balance is always big picture. It's a question of what classes and specs does your raid/mythic+/pvp group want to bring.

Most of the game's content favors melee, as well as having mob health be at a point where melee's opener usually kills the enemy. Burst will always be king in that situation.

Is balance perfect right now? No, but it's not that bad either.

When you expand it to things like Mythic+, if enemies are dying still quickly, then burst will remain king. Balance Druid is a perfect example -- terrible at low keys because everything melts. At higher keys, enemies live longer enough for their damage to ramp up. And that's how many casters work.

When you start factoring things like AOE CC, you run into a different part of game balance.

I've been in the theorycrafting scene for 8+ years. Part of the issue is players don't want passive damage to define their spec. (Auto-attacks in particular for melee.) No one wants downtime, or they'd prefer to minimize it as much as possible. (There's always a button to press.) Then players want spenders to generate more DPS than fillers. (This means you're looking to create burst windows when you have high resources.)

And this is the product you get: Casters are ramping up. Melee are dumping resources. Casters reach their peak when the pull ends. Melee just start with full resources on the next pull.

This creates mechanical imbalances because these designs.

The melee specs who need to ramp up are suffering too, especially Feral.
The casters who don't need to ramp-up do just fine. (Destro Warlock, despite its low ST sustain because Incinerate is a wet noodle.)

Many issues can be resolved by simply giving casters full resources out of combat. For melee specs with ramp-up, they'd need a button to effectively skip that ramp-up. But this creates the issue that no one is special anymore. Homogenization makes balancing easy, but it ruins what makes specs unique.
Most of this makes sense to me, BUT people will still be looking at performance differences. Whether it's for their own pride in performing well or the ability to get into a group.

Given the complexity of balancing all the strengths and weaknesses of the specs, is the difference from top to bottom basically as good as it gets?

I really hope not.
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They have literally posted changes they are making to elemental. Stop being a sensationalist
I honestly missed that. Can you link that? Thanks!

But again, many specs are worse than Elemental. I'm not asking specifically for Elemental "buffs", I'm inquiring to the overall balance methods and goals.
Found this: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768867246?page=3#post-50

But my questions remains for all specs, not just Elemental.
09/19/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Cyouskin

Is balance perfect right now? No, but it's not that bad either.


It is bad. It's statistically bad, and it's easily measured. The gap between the top specs and the bottom specs is huge and nowhere near healthy.

The reasons are numerous, but the results are what matter. Whether it's because the spec is just poorly designed or poorly tuned at the moment, or because the design doesn't fit in with the current content on offer, it doesn't matter.

As it stands, most of the fights in Uldir significantly favor melee. There's thankfully such a thing as too much melee on fights like G'huun and Mythrax, but for most of the rest of the raid you don't need much ranged. Looking at the top performing specs in most Uldir fights, you'll see a few common things. It's basically all melee at the top with the exception of Affliction and Beastmastery.
What's the common thread there? They can dps on the move.

When an entire raid tier is designed in a way that handicaps/punishes hard-casting, that's a problem.
Guilds are able to walk into mythic uldir at 358 item level and clear 7/8 but it's definitely a given spec doing 10% less damage that's holding back those normal Uldir pugs...
im not entirely sure people realize that very little of the vanilla team still works there.

but we have seen them do much better class balance wise, MoP for instance.
09/19/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Amoc
Looking at the top performing specs in most Uldir fights, you'll see a few common things. It's basically all melee at the top with the exception of Affliction and Beastmastery.


man it's been like 10 years since I've wanted to paste the ORLY owl
09/19/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Amoc
09/19/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Cyouskin

Is balance perfect right now? No, but it's not that bad either.


It is bad. It's statistically bad, and it's easily measured. The gap between the top specs and the bottom specs is huge and nowhere near healthy.

The reasons are numerous, but the results are what matter. Whether it's because the spec is just poorly designed or poorly tuned at the moment, or because the design doesn't fit in with the current content on offer, it doesn't matter.

As it stands, most of the fights in Uldir significantly favor melee. There's thankfully such a thing as too much melee on fights like G'huun and Mythrax, but for most of the rest of the raid you don't need much ranged. Looking at the top performing specs in most Uldir fights, you'll see a few common things. It's basically all melee at the top with the exception of Affliction and Beastmastery.
What's the common thread there? They can dps on the move.

When an entire raid tier is designed in a way that handicaps/punishes hard-casting, that's a problem.


What % is acceptable to you and how much does it change based on things beyond the class design such as encounter design, encounter length, and multiple aspects of each fight that favor different types of damage (like Ghuun really needing strong execute)?
09/19/2018 11:34 AMPosted by Doomomega
im not entirely sure people realize that very little of the vanilla team still works there.

but we have seen them do much better class balance wise, MoP for instance.


Except when warlocks were like 50% above everyone...
09/19/2018 08:35 AMPosted by Cyouskin

So, what is my point? "Balance" depends on the environment. Theorycrafting 101 concepts.

Melee vs. Caster this expansion boils down to this principle on class design -- casters are sustained, and melee are bursty. (Some specs don't fit that mold, such as Feral or Frost Mage.)


The problem is melee have so many gap closers, slows, snares, kicks, stuns, ranged attacks lol etc, meanwhile casters are still in vanilla wow.
09/19/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Amyiss
09/19/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Cyouskin
The melee specs who need to ramp up are suffering too, especially Feral.
The casters who don't need to ramp-up do just fine. (Destro Warlock, despite its low ST sustain because Incinerate is a wet noodle.)


Feral is struggling even on the bosses that are supposed to be our one talent at the expense of all others (low-movement 1-2 target sustained damage).

It. is. not. a. ramping. issue.


Sorry to poke a whole in that argument, but DoT classes are by nature what you would refer to as Ramp-Up classes, and Aff Warlock seems to be doing just fine...

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