Fix class balance!

General Discussion
Prev 1 3 4 5
09/19/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Cyouskin
We're talking about two different things at this point. You're about tuning, I'm about mechanics influencing output. Sorta the same topic, but not quite.

Tuning can still be off, but tuning rarely fixes poor mechanics.


That's a cop out.

If the mechanics across a given raid suppress damage output by 30% of a spec so that it's underperforming, tune up the damage by 30%. The solution isn't 'suffer with being garbage performance for an entire tier until next...where you're going to suffer the exact same problems all over again!' In fact, tuning damage up based upon raid design is exactly what they've been doing. The aura nerfs and buffs that have gone out have been exactly that. They just haven't been anywhere close to the required increase for the specs that are underperforming.
i dont know why but blizzard decides fixing game breaking class balance issues can only be done once every few months in major patch releases
09/19/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Amyiss
09/19/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Nyhlia
...

No, you don't. We saw the writing on the wall long before this tier started. And they left the dumpster tier specs in the dumpster.


lol if we need 10,000 parses to see the problems with the specs it'll be another month at least before feral has enough parses to qualify.


Maybe I didn't write that clearly. I was in total agreement that we don't need 10,000 parses to see underlying problems :)
09/19/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Nyhlia
And then add in you're wanting to spend globals
Why would you attach a global to something like that? Though as long as its not a cast-time ability it actually wouldnt really matter as long as you planned to be moving for at least the length of a GCD.
09/19/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Nyhlia
literally reduce the damage you do to almost nothing for extended periods of time
How much damage is an Arcane Mage or an Ele Sham doing when they're moving? Casters having gaps in their damage to move isnt exactly revolutionary.
Pausing the Imps would also mean that you still get that damage back, but later in the fight once you've stopped moving. You're not losing anything.
09/19/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Nyhlia
Go conservative on those base values. And then see how much damage you're doing from the talent.
Easily 15% of my damage with ~0% haste, and of course that talent double dips on haste since haste increases the number of Imps out as well as reducing your cast times and globals. Its actually a really significant talent

Idk what else you would ask for to help the Demo lock in fights, besides cast-while-moving or CC immunity, which might as well be asking for the moon.
09/19/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Nyhlia
09/19/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Cyouskin
We're talking about two different things at this point. You're about tuning, I'm about mechanics influencing output. Sorta the same topic, but not quite.

Tuning can still be off, but tuning rarely fixes poor mechanics.


That's a cop out.

If the mechanics across a given raid suppress damage output by 30% of a spec so that it's underperforming, tune up the damage by 30%. The solution isn't 'suffer with being garbage performance for an entire tier until next...where you're going to suffer the exact same problems all over again!' In fact, tuning damage up based upon raid design is exactly what they've been doing. The aura nerfs and buffs that have gone out have been exactly that. They just haven't been anywhere close to the required increase for the specs that are underperforming.


This hypothetical argument is so outside the bounds of the actual situation it is seriously not worth the time wasted to correct them.

09/19/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Nyhlia
Maybe I didn't write that clearly. I was in total agreement that we don't need 10,000 parses to see underlying problems :)


oh no we're in agreement I just agree very rudely <3
09/19/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Amyiss
I mean you strategically avoided the part where I explicitly said I agree in principle with the idea that specs are subject to situational advantages and disadvantages so you could argue some more about it.

I'm not arguing.

09/19/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Nayaga
I do believe that "systems are very complex". Is it your opinion that given that "systems are very complex", that the current shapshot of class balance is as good as it gets?

I think class design is pretty lackluster this time around, tbh. And lackluster class design made it difficult to balance numbers. I think they should do another tuning pass, but Azerite really screwed things up. I push a lot of blame into Azerite because it takes away from the mechanics of the specs, adding to variability and dependency of said traits.
09/19/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Nyhlia
Demo needs a way to generate shards when it has to move so that it's not dead time when it doesn't have MC procs. Any second not casting for demo is lost damage, particularly if it's casting that you'd be doing to generate shards.
Yeah, rereading the issue that you personally think you have with Demo, I think you just have to accept that Demo is a caster.
Casters just have DPS losses when they have to move, mitigated only by any instant-cast or cast-while-moving abilities they might have. Demonic Core -is- your instant cast resource. You're intended to save some of these procs for when you need them.
Coming at it from that direction, increasing your DC cap and your soul-shard cap would also help, since you would be able to store more of those resources for any extended movement or downtimes.
09/19/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Cyouskin
I think class design is pretty lackluster this time around, tbh. And lackluster class design made it difficult to balance numbers. I think they should do another tuning pass, but Azerite really screwed things up. I push a lot of blame into Azerite because it takes away from the mechanics of the specs, adding to variability and dependency of said traits.
Straight forward answer, thanks.

I take that reply with the others to mean: the current status of class balancing is where it's at because the system is very complex and the class design is lackluster. IMO class balance is in need of improvement and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for improvement.
Why would you attach a global to something like that? Though as long as its not a cast-time ability it actually wouldnt really matter as long as you planned to be moving for at least the length of a GCD.


Because it's a hypothetical ability that you're asking for that the only thing I've seen is once a minute as to the cooldown (granted that was someone else) but the function of the ability is vague at this point. I don't default to off the GCD because Blizzard has intentionally been reigning those things in.

How much damage is an Arcane Mage or an Ele Sham doing when they're moving? Casters having gaps in their damage to move isnt exactly revolutionary.


Correct, but generally speaking they have enough to do that if they manage movement well they can sustain respectable damage numbers. Arcane had (I haven't played mine since Legion and I know some of this changed but I'm not up on what) Arcane Barrage, Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Evocation, they could also PoM something if they needed to. That was a decent toolkit and their damage wouldn't drop to ~20-30% of damage when they had to move throughout the fight on average. Ele shaman had Stormkeeper, Icefury to spam Frost Shock, LaB procs, etc. but they were definitely hit harder than others usually as a turret spec. But the damage output of specs is supposed to be balanced around that. i.e. if a spec has to move a lot and loses a lot of damage from movement, when they can cast they should do big damage. If that doesn't happen then it's not balanced.

Pausing the Imps would also mean that you still get that damage back, but later in the fight once you've stopped moving. You're not losing anything.


Yes, you are because time is a resource. Letting your imps deal damage and time out means you're generating more MC procs over the fight. Using an ability like that means you're delaying damage, but you're still not doing any damage in that time. That's the entire problem

09/19/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Miscast
Easily 15% of my damage with ~0% haste, and of course that talent double dips on haste since haste increases the number of Imps out as well as reducing your cast times and globals. Its actually a really significant talent


I'm looking at a mythic+ parse from yesterday on a boss from SoB that has very little movement relatively speaking. Demonbolt was 17% of my damage with 2 Shadow's Bite traits. Shadow Bolt was 6.9%. There's no way in hell that 15% of your damage comes from that talent. You are greatly overestimating the impact of that talent on your damage. By such a degree that it's hilarious.

09/19/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Miscast
Idk what else you would ask for to help the Demo lock in fights, besides cast-while-moving or CC immunity, which might as well be asking for the moon.


There are only 2 solutions to the problem Demo has right now. Either increase the damage it does so that it's dealing, on average, respectable damage across the board, the perk a turret class is supposed to have to be balanced based on actual uptime. Or give it more things to do to generate shards when it has to move. That's it. Doing either of those or a blend of both are the only options that legitimately address the problem the spec has.

But we've devolved into talking about a specific spec way too much here. I'd prefer to speak to the topic as a whole. I play everything. While I'm only at 5/12 so far this expansion I'll be there in a couple months. The problem is bigger than just demo. Lots of specs are in a bad way right now.
09/19/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Nyhlia
The problem is bigger than just demo. Lots of specs are in a bad way right now.
That really how I wanted to approach the discussion.

Does Blizzard have the correct tools to easily increase a specs DPS? From the replies I've read, Blizzard doesn't. If they did have an overall "adjustment knob" for each spec, I don't think we would see the large range in dps ranking.
Honestly is class balance even possibility? So many different classes and abilities, each have different strengths and weakness. So unless you give everyone the same exact abilities and gear not sure how you can balance things.
09/19/2018 01:49 PMPosted by Nayaga
09/19/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Nyhlia
The problem is bigger than just demo. Lots of specs are in a bad way right now.
That really how I wanted to approach the discussion.

Does Blizzard have the correct tools to easily increase a specs DPS? From the replies I've read, Blizzard doesn't. If they did have an overall "adjustment knob" for each spec, I don't think we would see the large range in dps ranking.


To answer that question, yes, they do. They've been making targeted incremental buffs to specs as a whole. The same time they made nerfs to top performing specs. The nerfs/buffs were just so tiny that it made no difference at all. This is after they flat out nerfed at least one of the specs by 30% at BfA launch.
I'm looking at a mythic+ parse from yesterday on a boss from SoB that has very little movement relatively speaking. Demonbolt was 17% of my damage with 2 Shadow's Bite traits. Shadow Bolt was 6.9%. There's no way in hell that 15% of your damage comes from that talent. You are greatly overestimating the impact of that talent on your damage. By such a degree that it's hilarious.
I mean, you use Soul Strike rather than From the Shadows. If you're not timing your DC's for that From the Shadows window of course you're not going to be doing that much damage with Demon Bolt. You're right though going back and looking at it I'm at more like 10% of my damage from Sacrificed Souls.

09/19/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Nyhlia
There are only 2 solutions to the problem Demo has right now. Either increase the damage it does so that it's dealing, on average, respectable damage across the board, the perk a turret class is supposed to have to be balanced based on actual uptime.
Yeah, see thats the difference between mechanics and tuning.
Hur Dur increase Shadow Bolt damage 100% hotfix is in Blizzard's MO, but its not necessarily good to have that be the only solution. Imo the biggest problem with Demo is what you were talking about mechanically where their uptime produces exponentially more damage up to that Imp critical mass as long as they're holding still. It can be a fun mechanic but there is so much downtime in BfA's fights that its mostly just a punishment.
Hur Dur buff shadowbolt might get their numbers on the charts, but Demo would still feel like crap to play, which is at least as important.
09/19/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Nyhlia
Yes, you are because time is a resource. Letting your imps deal damage and time out means you're generating more MC procs over the fight. Using an ability like that means you're delaying damage, but you're still not doing any damage in that time. That's the entire problem
I mean, firstly, MC is no longer a resource, its Demonic Core now, dont ask me why. Secondly, I completely disagree that it would be a problem to stop doing damage while you're moving as long as you can store the damage up to apply it when you're ready to stand still again. Lots of classes actually do have to stop doing damage for huge portions of certain fights (melee), being able to store up your resources better, whether thats Imps, DC, or SSs, would be a huge boon that Demo is currently lacking. Any idiot can come along and say "ok, Demo gets 10% more damage across the board", but what I'm looking for are ways to actually mechanically improve the way that Demo plays without either just giving them more damage, or "give it more things to do to generate shards when it has to move" turning them into a hunter.

09/19/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Nyhlia
But we've devolved into talking about a specific spec way too much here
Thats what happens when you cant refrain from antagonizing people.
09/19/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Nyhlia
Oi, just .... oi.
09/19/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Nyhlia
This suggestion is horrible. Just horrible.
By such a degree that it's hilarious.
You want to attack someone's suggestion fine, but dont try to pretend to be disinterested and broadminded afterward.
The green is earning his paycheck today blindly defending Blizzard. Well done!
I can only speak for fire mage but I think it's in a perfect place aside from fireball. Fireball is our core spell and it's absurdly weak. Buff its base damage, ability to crit, or reduce its cast time
09/19/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Miscast
I mean, you use Soul Strike rather than From the Shadows.


Uh, what? First, I used Vilefiend that run. Second, how would you know what my spec was at any given moment? You're just baselessly assuming random things and arguing with those assumptions. Third, I specifically stated I had 2 Shadow's Bite azerite traits. They increase the damage of Demonbolt by ~100% by themselves, which would improve the damage gain from Sacrificed Souls. I stated that I had those traits so you could make the correlation. Clearly you didn't. Shadow's Bite doesn't work with From the Shadows. One procs when you summon the dogs, the other procs when the dogs fade. 100% > 20% fyi. Since math doesn't seem to be your strong suit. And there isn't any overlap except during Tyrant windows for very small segments pending how things line up. The short of it is using both is counterproductive.

But for the purposes of this the math doesn't work out to be true even using the larger (100% bonus from two Shadow's Bite, 2133 from the 370 + 1611 from the 340, base demonbolt shows a tooltip value of 3833) damage increase versus a flat 20% from FtS. And if it doesn't come close using a trait that doesn't stack with FtS and the bonus is much larger, even giving you that value doesn't come out to 15% of damage done, why would using a value 80% less come out closer? The answer is it doesn't. It's nowhere near the value you place on it. At all. Please, show me the math that results in it being even a flat 10% of your damage. I'd love to see it.

The rest just makes my head hurt. Every single resource out there disagrees with you. Icy Veins. LOSS. Everything. No one recommends From the Shadows for any content under any circumstance. And that's because mathematically it's a damage loss to take compared to the other options. And I'm not even someone who's going to write you off for using FtS. If you're looking for a passive option it's going to be a loss overall but if that results in a spec that you're more comfortable playing more power to you. Just don't lie to me and pretend it does far more damage than it actually does, which is what you tried doing above.

Thats what happens when you cant refrain from antagonizing people. You want to attack someone's suggestion fine, but dont try to pretend to be disinterested and broadminded afterward.


Those aren't mutually exclusive positions. I can simultaneously demonstrate your suggestion is bad and express a desire to talk about the topic at large at the same time. It's not hard. I just did it again right now.

But I get it, you're butthurt that I think your suggestion is stupid. It's cool. Let's just agree to disagree on that and move back to the topic at large. We both agree that Blizzard class/spec balance isn't good at the moment, correct? I mean, you're not here white knighting like the MVP's so I assume we're on the same page there.
09/19/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Metrohaha
09/19/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Khëmical
@Metrohaha I think a boss fight is a lot different than staying alive in world content

Can you be more specific?
I'm not sure any class is balanced around world content though, unfortunately!


What I meant was there's a few classes that are super squishy with so so damage one of which is Elemental Shaman, It doesn't feel anywhere near lets say Ret Paladin where he can basically run amuck, have insta cast self heals pop and shields that protect him. Elemental on the other hand is very tricky to quest in as you need to watch how many mobs you tackle and all. Comparing that to raid or dungeon environment where there is a healer and a tank is a definite difference

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum