Ythisens about Bias and Warfronts.

General Discussion
My friend this quote did not age well:

09/11/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Ythisens

It's funny because it creates the natural narrative of factional conflict and we even see posts from both sides complaining about bias. It's been a topic forever on the forums so its something easy to joke about historically with the community. It's not something we have to raise as feedback because its just something that is always there.

The actual breakdown is closer to 50% than you would actually think when it comes to what faction has the most players.


The launch of Warfronts was not good all around and it shows the issues seem to be a break of communication between the player base and the devs. I'm convinced the only ones who can fix issues like these are our community managers.

So while I'm thankful you did respond to my question, I can't say the response was fulfilling. Precisely:

"It's not something we need to raise as feedback because it's always there." I remember the early vanilla debates that paladins were Op, or story was favored one way or the other etc.

But this is different. This is progression. This is putting catch up mechanics not even a month into the expansion and making a chunk of BfA content obsolete right after it was released and these mechanics and hotfixes blatantly favor one faction and I feel anyone who looks at this objectively has seen that.

So what are my solutions for this?

While make no mistake the launch of Warfronts in respect to gear it dropped there is no fix that won't leave someone out knowing this here would be my solutions:

Don't nerf Warfronts gear, no rollbacks etc.

BUT

Buff dungeon loot drops and uldir drops and scale them up to that difficulty of drop

Heroics should now drop 345s
Mythics should now drop 355s
Mythic+ can scale accordingly based on keystone level
LFR drop 360s (but make this able only to warforge and nothing higher.)
Uldir drop 370s
Heroics Uldir drop 385
Mythic Uldir drop 400

This way you can still have Warfronts but make it a progression in-between normal dungeons and heroics dungeons. Remove the ability to titanforge/warforge from Warfronts and make all the gear dropped have versatility. (Similar to old style PvP gear) that way it will never be a BiS and the gear will be subpar for actual progression.

This fix isn't perfect but dungeons and even uldir CANT be made irrelevant this early in the expansion. Even heroics.

And tell the devs seriously that they need to put in some kind of "we're sorry" thing to the alliance. I'd suggest a clean the blight of Lordaeron quest/scenario and have them kill some remaining hordies around the city.

Even if this is not a good idea. I just ask you look at this criticism and actually pass it off because even if it is "horde bias" doesn't mean it's joke worthy because these are decisions that aren't good for the game long term.
Don't mention their name.
They seem to only search for their name on the forum & reply to those threads.
09/12/2018 05:15 AMPosted by Aleryia
Don't mention their name.
They seem to only search for their name on the forum & reply to those threads.


Im not expecting a response. But I'd like for the forums to have feedback ready for when they want to see it
Excuse me? Did he actually write that they didn't have to raise it as feedback? As in " Oh we don't think we are biased therefore the people complaining are just wrong" type of deal? Why on earth would anyone say that?

When they took this measurement did they compare guilds and players? Just because there's allegedly 50 percent here and 50 percent there that doesn't mean both are equal.
09/12/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Kirela
Excuse me? Did he actually write that they didn't have to raise it as feedback? As in " Oh we don't think we are biased therefore the people complaining are just wrong" type of deal? Why on earth would anyone say that?

When they took this measurement did they compare guilds and players? Just because there's allegedly 50 percent here and 50 percent there that doesn't mean both are equal.


Here is the post link:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769016903?page=17#post-328
The problem with bias is that your interpretation of others' bias is also biased. We're biased creatures.

Deal with it.
09/12/2018 05:24 AMPosted by Mvura
The problem with bias is that your interpretation of others' bias is also biased. We're biased creatures.

Deal with it.


Interpretations are one thing. Objective evidence is another.
Can we just leave Ythisens alone.

What do you expect him to go and say to the employees who actually do the development?

You realize if they buffed heroic dungeons to give better loot than warfronts there would be no reason to do warfronts.
09/12/2018 05:21 AMPosted by Ryzos
09/12/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Kirela
Excuse me? Did he actually write that they didn't have to raise it as feedback? As in " Oh we don't think we are biased therefore the people complaining are just wrong" type of deal? Why on earth would anyone say that?

When they took this measurement did they compare guilds and players? Just because there's allegedly 50 percent here and 50 percent there that doesn't mean both are equal.


Here is the post link:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769016903?page=17#post-328


I don't get what number of players has to do with them favoring one side or the other. Wonderful post, so glad this is all a big joke to them. I guess there's no point in trying to get through to them.
09/12/2018 05:25 AMPosted by Ryzos
09/12/2018 05:24 AMPosted by Mvura
The problem with bias is that your interpretation of others' bias is also biased. We're biased creatures.

Deal with it.


Interpretations are one thing. Objective evidence is another.


There's no objective evidence, that's the problem.

Anecdotal comparisons aren't evidence of widespread bias.

Until you can list literally every alliance or horde activity in the game, quantify it (somehow), and ideally interview every developer who makes decisions in a way that reveals their preference, you're just swimming in your own subjective confirmation bias.
09/12/2018 05:24 AMPosted by Mvura
The problem with bias is that your interpretation of others' bias is also biased. We're biased creatures.

Deal with it.


So you're saying "with inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair is that your interpretation of others' inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair is also inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair. We're inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair creatures.

Right.

Prejudice of prejudice of prejudice essentially, i don't know what people you deal with on a daily basis but most people i know can form a non biased decision because they can include logic / factual thought into the mix. Bias doesn't mean individual opinion it means opinion without logic, or prejudice. I think what would fit your own argument there would not be bias but rather opinion.

Rather - "The problem with opinions is that your interpretation of others' opinions is also opinionated. We're opinionated creatures."

Not everyone are brainless biased loud mouths who form opinions out of thin air.
09/12/2018 05:28 AMPosted by Mvura
09/12/2018 05:25 AMPosted by Ryzos
...

Interpretations are one thing. Objective evidence is another.


There's no objective evidence, that's the problem.

Anecdotal comparisons aren't evidence of widespread bias.

Until you can list literally every alliance or horde activity in the game, quantify it (somehow), and ideally interview every developer who makes decisions in a way that reveals their preference, you're just swimming in your own subjective confirmation bias.


Well luckily, we can do exactly that:

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/best-guilds

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/rbg/us
09/12/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Krothare
09/12/2018 05:28 AMPosted by Mvura
...

There's no objective evidence, that's the problem.

Anecdotal comparisons aren't evidence of widespread bias.

Until you can list literally every alliance or horde activity in the game, quantify it (somehow), and ideally interview every developer who makes decisions in a way that reveals their preference, you're just swimming in your own subjective confirmation bias.


Well luckily, we can do exactly that:

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/best-guilds

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/rbg/us


Lol, that's not evidence of bias. It could be, but you're jumping to a conclusion.

Do you understand what confirmation bias is? Its the tendency to accept evidence that supports your point while ignoring anything that doesn't.

We aren't going to get much further with this conversation, because you're biased.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOYmqSF6OQ
09/12/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Krothare
09/12/2018 05:28 AMPosted by Mvura
...

There's no objective evidence, that's the problem.

Anecdotal comparisons aren't evidence of widespread bias.

Until you can list literally every alliance or horde activity in the game, quantify it (somehow), and ideally interview every developer who makes decisions in a way that reveals their preference, you're just swimming in your own subjective confirmation bias.


Well luckily, we can do exactly that:

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/best-guilds

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/rbg/us
zing
09/12/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Kirela
Excuse me? Did he actually write that they didn't have to raise it as feedback? As in " Oh we don't think we are biased therefore the people complaining are just wrong" type of deal? Why on earth would anyone say that?

When they took this measurement did they compare guilds and players? Just because there's allegedly 50 percent here and 50 percent there that doesn't mean both are equal.


He didn’t actually say they aren’t bias. They just said they joke about it. It’s like a non-denial denial.
09/12/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Hanhoi
So you're saying "with inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair is that your interpretation of others' inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair is also inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair. We're inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair creatures.


Yes. There is a century of research on this topic.
09/12/2018 05:28 AMPosted by Mvura
09/12/2018 05:25 AMPosted by Ryzos
...
Interpretations are one thing. Objective evidence is another.

There's no objective evidence, that's the problem.

Anecdotal comparisons aren't evidence of widespread bias.

Until you can list literally every alliance or horde activity in the game, quantify it (somehow), and ideally interview every developer who makes decisions in a way that reveals their preference, you're just swimming in your own subjective confirmation bias.

Clearly you don't believe in the science of statistics. The fact that you don't believe, however, does not mean you can make it go away. One does not need a 100% sampling of data to draw meaningful conclusions, nor anywhere near that.

The unfortunate thing is that it is clear that the devs take no feedback except from others within their bubble. They do no market research to determine what customers want or would find acceptable. The game now goes from debacle to debacle. Bugs are only fixed if the customers complain loudly enough.

Customers are an inconvenience to them. It is a higher priority making sure that pro-blizzard trolls outnumber disappointed customers than it is to get their game working.
09/12/2018 05:33 AMPosted by Mvura
09/12/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Krothare
...

Well luckily, we can do exactly that:

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/best-guilds

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/leaderboards/rbg/us


Lol, that's not evidence of bias. It could be, but you're jumping to a conclusion.

Do you understand what confirmation bias is? Its the tendency to accept evidence that supports your point while ignoring anything that doesn't.

We aren't going to get much further with this conversation, because you're biased.


How is me presenting cold, hard evidence of Horde dominating every aspect of this game proof of me being biased?

In the past it was usually Horde takes PvE, Alliance for Ranked PvP. Now both of those are Horde all the way down, with High M+ being controlled by Horde with an Iron Fist.

This isn't up for debate, it's not conjecture, it's not a product of personal bias. The reality is of one side of this game is completely controlling it. If this goes on too long, it will have devastating effects on the Alliance population.
09/12/2018 05:33 AMPosted by Mvura
Lol, that's not evidence of bias. It could be, but you're jumping to a conclusion.

Do you understand what confirmation bias is? Its the tendency to accept evidence that supports your point while ignoring anything that doesn't.

We aren't going to get much further with this conversation, because you're biased.
We're not going to get much further with this conversation because you're employing a combination of an on-the-spot fallacy with shifting-the-goalposts.

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