MVP's, you can do better.

General Discussion
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Inactive player currently waiting for my sub to drop, but I tried to be more active on the forums near the end of my time playing and I still read news about WoW and read the forums actively, and this thread in particular caught my attention.

I want to say it's refreshing to see so many MVP's and white posters in the same thread mostly posting constructively, but there are issues brought up in this thread I can say are legitimate.

In defense of the MVP's, I'll say I'm able to put myself in their shoes and recognize it's horrible that they're constantly attacked with unnecessary aggression directed toward them nearly all the time on the forums, and that's something the community needs to work on - It's unlikely it'll ever be gone completely, but people need to work on not looking at MVP's as "blizz shills" especially when several MVP posts recently have criticized the state of the game, even if it's not how people would like it criticized (that in itself is a problem with people that aren't MVP's too).

In defense of the players, I'll say how I view MVP's as an example; I understand that you're not representative of Blizzard, but if you don't consider that people will inevitably view you that way, you should try and consider that more. People see you as being handpicked by Blizzard, which you were, and expect more of you than the average white poster. I know it's not fair, but the MVP system isn't necessarily fair because no one can just become an MVP because they want to be one. Not trying to attack - I want to clarify that, I'm just voicing what's my opinion (and I stress, my opinion), which is that you need to recognize and consider that you'll be inevitably viewed as representative of Blizzard when you speak on the forums.

And the last thing I'll say... and this is likely the most aggressive I'm to get, and I'll try to keep my aggression to a minimum: Metro, if you read this, I'd like you to consider my last point, and recognize that you need only consider that you'll be viewed as a representative, and you need to not actively try and be a representative of Blizzard - Based on what you've said in this thread, you try and speak from Blizzard's standpoint. Don't. You're not meant to be a Blizzard employee, nor an ardent defender of Blizzard against your own opinions.

And your opinions, I will say, while acceptable that you have them, are often voiced in the wrong areas, where you try to die on a hill you should've known not to climb up, when you should know you aren't going to succeed. I understand from what you've said that you want to help people, but you're not helping people, you're trying to push them to be a certain way against what they prefer to be. People will be who they are, as you've said of yourself, and when you try and push your opinion to have them "better themselves" you're not actually doing your stated mission any justice, because you're pushing them away, not towards the goal you want to see them achieve.

I like that this thread has been more tame and constructive than most lately, and I just wanted to add to the conversation by voicing my opinion. Thank you to the MVP's that've posted and continue to post here, and thank you to the white posters that've been constructive and understanding, and made this thread one that so many MVP's have felt comfortable posting in.
Dude already said he loves to challenge people, then once he was challenged here his solution was to stop posting.

Kinda weird for a cat who is all about that life coaching / challenge everyone shtick.
However, you will see many long time players, and MVPs who have listened to Q&As, theorycrafted mechanics, highly researched game aspects, etc - explain how they work. The best way to do that is to make it clear that we are just explaining the current system, not saying if it is good/bad. The point of that is that if you understand how something works and why, it can be easier to deal with it or to provide constructive feedback on changes.

09/15/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Metrohaha
All I want people to do is have a drive to better themselves. To be their best version.
If you only have 1 hour a week to play and have a bunch of IRL roadblocks hindering you, I would never fault you for that.

I think this is admirable, but it is now how you come across and is one of the things that upsets people. You come across as dismissing concerns from casual folks, disabled folks, busy folks, new folks, people who like different aspects of the game than you do.


For what it is worth MVPs need to remember that they are minding the shop online here at the forums for Blizzard. They are a bit like shop keepers back in the day that every main street had a general store and the white text posters are customers.

They should be respectful and refrain from posting if they cannot be helpful. I see far too many almost and dead on personal attacks from MVPs. I see a lot of snobbish and elitist attitude.

In my opinion if you want the "badge" of an MVP you need to give up acting like an elite player and be helpful. Now if that is not what Blizzard expects then they will be responsible for the continued slow decline of the player community and the game.

Honestly maybe, just maybe, its us? "Us" casual players. Some of us have aged and are now just too old to be playing this game. /shrug.

I don't see solutions here. I am old enough to know things would have changed on these forums years ago if Blizzard wanted them to.
You recognize the problem. Good, step 1 complete. Addressing said problem is gonna be a lot harder. Like it or not you already have a target on your back. You also are held to a higher standard. While i know y'all aren't paid. It's still a standard that applies. Keep in mind that mr uber casual might be as skillful as mr hardcore. I've seen raiders that make me go.....how do you function, as well as casuals. It's up to you to change peoples perspective on you. Heck what would happen if you couldn't raid die to working odd hours.


Ya, it will be an uphill climb. Seems like a lot of misconception to deal with too.
I wish there was a way for people to get to know me better.

The fact that your response is immediately about raiding saddens me, because, as a GM of a guild since Wrath I always try to help anyone and everyone in any way I can excel in the game.

It's something of a running joke. Metro's farm system, people have said. I bring people in who really have no business being in the guild at the time, and I try to turn them into people who can end up carrying our raid.

That's the #1 thing I wish to help people with here. "Casual" is a state of mind, and one I had to claw my way out of all those years ago. But there is SO much information and education out there, that anyone can take these steps.

In reality though, if its not your thing I would never fault anyone for it! I just want to see everyone be the best they can be, and not crutch on blaming Blizzard for things when the going gets tough. Like I said before, if you play to do 1 world quest a week, I just want people to keep improving on that world quest to the point that they get 2 world quests done eventually. That is the foundation this game is based on, and it is what makes its community so great.

Anyway, I'll do what I can to help adjust this problem. I hope people will be accepting, and as always, if anyone has anything they would like to talk to me about, we can do it any time anywhere in private.
they've earned enough corporate shill good boy points
you expect them to give up their nuggies?
09/15/2018 07:51 PMPosted by Verdre
Rthen, one area (and this isn't discussing the mvp program) that WoW has been lacking is the presence of decent in-game tutorials. The tooltips are sadly lacking and you're expected quite often to figure out all the basics on your own. The few times they give you tutorials, they are either obnoxiously done or all but useless.

And since there are changes Every Expansion, with changes not being properly documented in game, the need for tutorials or refresher courses should be present.

I'll take Shadow Priest as an example. Was there ever any in game explanation of how Insanity worked or were players left to figure it out on their own? If there was one, I don't recall seeing it!

Just tooltips. Which didn't present the bigger picture that was needed to understand the changes.


100% agree with you. But this ties in to MVP.. if they did updated documentation both online and in game they would not need MVPs on the forums! Your point about shadow priests and "insanity" in game explanation is perfect.

I could go on and on about demo warlocks... sigh
09/15/2018 08:02 PMPosted by Rthen
if they did updated documentation both online and in game they would not need MVPs on the forums!


I still think the idea of helpers on the forums would be useful. However, I also believe that this phrase is true.

Comfort the Afflicted.
Afflict the Comfortable.

Perhaps the MVP Program has become too "Comfortable" for its own good.
09/15/2018 07:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Yes, this is the #1 thing I know I need to immediately incorporate.
I brought it up earlier in this thread, but its often times very confusing to see the discussions happening here because they don't match up with what I see in game or anywhere else.


What you see in game is influenced by your core group and activities. If you are constantly farming say Mythic + with 5-10 people in a large guild full of active members during prime time who are all doing the same, then that colors your perceptions.

I'm playing on Zul'jin, a perennially full server and accepted a guild invitation because their stated raid times match up with my typical block down time so I have that option open. They usually don't have tons of players on during my general play sessions though and those that are on are mostly doing their own thing.

I'm familiar enough with WoW to know that this is not indicative of any particular trends besides I play at off peak times!

Unlike assuming that because just because you personally are pushing 370 during week 4 (and probably those you play with most often as well) doesn't mean that holds true for the majority since that sort of intense gearing is specifically only needed to jump straight into and through Heroics to head into Mythics or is simply a byproduct of doing Mythic + for end game. It's not really needed for much else content wise particularly this early on.
09/15/2018 07:52 PMPosted by Tallhill
Metro, if you read this, I'd like you to consider my last point, and recognize that you need only consider that you'll be viewed as a representative, and you need to not actively try and be a representative of Blizzard - Based on what you've said in this thread, you try and speak from Blizzard's standpoint. Don't. You're not meant to be a Blizzard employee, nor an ardent defender of Blizzard against your own opinions.


I just meant to say that many of the posts I make are me explaining how things are in the game, not just my opinion on them.
When I say "how things are" I mean how Blizzard has designed them, and the intent behind that.

I've seen way too many things over my time in this game, so when I see some one falling for a pretty obvious trap in terms of a system in the game, I like to help them get a better perspective.

Good example has been Islands. People continuously speak on matters that I know to differ from the objectivity of what was implemented. I can help them and others understand the facts about the system, but the way I do it rarely does.

So, I'm left at a cross-roads. It makes me worry that those players don't actually WANT to enjoy the system, and that frustrates me. That frustration comes out in the post.
And the rest is history.

I'm going to try my best to avoid that situation either way though, as its pretty obvious that an upset person isn't going to be made to be less upset when I contribute those observations, and it causes an even worse situation.

Anyway, thanks again for your help here!
09/15/2018 08:04 PMPosted by Chopsurloin
Unlike assuming that because just because you personally are pushing 370 during week 4 (and probably those you play with most often as well) doesn't mean that holds true for the majority since that sort of intense gearing is specifically only needed to jump straight into and through Heroics to head into Mythics or is simply a byproduct of doing Mythic + for end game. It's not really needed for much else content wise particularly this early on.


I just want to point out that since the team at blizzard are listening especially closely to MVPs and their opinions we really should not have to wonder why casuals get treated so badly on the forums and that certain class specifications are ignored in regards to proper balance.
09/15/2018 08:07 PMPosted by Metrohaha
09/15/2018 07:52 PMPosted by Tallhill
Metro, if you read this, I'd like you to consider my last point, and recognize that you need only consider that you'll be viewed as a representative, and you need to not actively try and be a representative of Blizzard - Based on what you've said in this thread, you try and speak from Blizzard's standpoint. Don't. You're not meant to be a Blizzard employee, nor an ardent defender of Blizzard against your own opinions.


I just meant to say that many of the posts I make are me explaining how things are in the game, not just my opinion on them.
When I say "how things are" I mean how Blizzard has designed them, and the intent behind that.

I've seen way too many things over my time in this game, so when I see some one falling for a pretty obvious trap in terms of a system in the game, I like to help them get a better perspective.

Good example has been Islands. People continuously speak on matters that I know to differ from the objectivity of what was implemented. I can help them and others understand the facts about the system, but the way I do it rarely does.

So, I'm left at a cross-roads. It makes me worry that those players don't actually WANT to enjoy the system, and that frustrates me. That frustration comes out in the post.
And the rest is history.

I'm going to try my best to avoid that situation either way though, as its pretty obvious that an upset person isn't going to be made to be less upset when I contribute those observations, and it causes an even worse situation.

Anyway, thanks again for your help here!


I didnt read even half of that and its very clear that you seriously overthink everything, for Pete sake man, its a stupid video game.

Get. A. Grip.
09/15/2018 08:07 PMPosted by Metrohaha
09/15/2018 07:52 PMPosted by Tallhill
Metro, if you read this, I'd like you to consider my last point, and recognize that you need only consider that you'll be viewed as a representative, and you need to not actively try and be a representative of Blizzard - Based on what you've said in this thread, you try and speak from Blizzard's standpoint. Don't. You're not meant to be a Blizzard employee, nor an ardent defender of Blizzard against your own opinions.


I just meant to say that many of the posts I make are me explaining how things are in the game, not just my opinion on them.
When I say "how things are" I mean how Blizzard has designed them, and the intent behind that.

I've seen way too many things over my time in this game, so when I see some one falling for a pretty obvious trap in terms of a system in the game, I like to help them get a better perspective.

Good example has been Islands. People continuously speak on matters that I know to differ from the objectivity of what was implemented. I can help them and others understand the facts about the system, but the way I do it rarely does.

So, I'm left at a cross-roads. It makes me worry that those players don't actually WANT to enjoy the system, and that frustrates me. That frustration comes out in the post.
And the rest is history.

I'm going to try my best to avoid that situation either way though, as its pretty obvious that an upset person isn't going to be made to be less upset when I contribute those observations, and it causes an even worse situation.

Anyway, thanks again for your help here!


It's good that you say you'll do your best to avoid that situation, just apply that intent and you'll be on your way to being more accepted. And try to ease your mind a bit on certain things; If someone doesn't want to enjoy the game, there's likely a reason that, if they don't explicitly state, means more to them and will influence them more than your attempts to convince them otherwise will.

Just try and analyze a thread opener and the following posts before you say something. Sometimes, in certain conversations, it's best to just read and not reply; Replying in certain situations, as you mentioned, can make the situation worse. It's about recognizing those situations, and then preventing yourself from posting something that you can reason will be pushed back against hardcore.

I'd like to think you have more to show us as an MVP than what most have spoken of; and I hope we get to see more that we haven't before, in a positive manner. You're welcome for the advice, just take advice to heart if it's attempting to be constructive.
09/15/2018 07:59 PMPosted by Metrohaha
You recognize the problem. Good, step 1 complete. Addressing said problem is gonna be a lot harder. Like it or not you already have a target on your back. You also are held to a higher standard. While i know y'all aren't paid. It's still a standard that applies. Keep in mind that mr uber casual might be as skillful as mr hardcore. I've seen raiders that make me go.....how do you function, as well as casuals. It's up to you to change peoples perspective on you. Heck what would happen if you couldn't raid die to working odd hours.


Ya, it will be an uphill climb. Seems like a lot of misconception to deal with too.
I wish there was a way for people to get to know me better.

The fact that your response is immediately about raiding saddens me, because, as a GM of a guild since Wrath I always try to help anyone and everyone in any way I can excel in the game.

It's something of a running joke. Metro's farm system, people have said. I bring people in who really have no business being in the guild at the time, and I try to turn them into people who can end up carrying our raid.

That's the #1 thing I wish to help people with here. "Casual" is a state of mind, and one I had to claw my way out of all those years ago. But there is SO much information and education out there, that anyone can take these steps.

In reality though, if its not your thing I would never fault anyone for it! I just want to see everyone be the best they can be, and not crutch on blaming Blizzard for things when the going gets tough. Like I said before, if you play to do 1 world quest a week, I just want people to keep improving on that world quest to the point that they get 2 world quests done eventually. That is the foundation this game is based on, and it is what makes its community so great.

Anyway, I'll do what I can to help adjust this problem. I hope people will be accepting, and as always, if anyone has anything they would like to talk to me about, we can do it any time anywhere in private.


I'm on mobile so picking out the parts of this is difficult. I do understand wanting people to improve and help themselves. I also understand that seeing lol scaling sucks, bfa is trash, i spent 4 hours on the shell game nerf plox, gets tiring as well. Right now the forum "hivemind" (and human pallies) are all bashing on "horde bias". Yet when confronted with evidence tjat doesn't align. They just go back to shouting horde bias.

To an extent let people be themselves. Just worry about your guild and its people. It's a lot less stress for something beyond your control.
09/15/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Luminaria
Stop the fake damage control. All I've read today is derailment, complete obviousness about what is talked about, and flat out lies.

You don't have to agree with the community all the time.
You should give your opinion.
Don't be blatantly ridiculous about the reality of the game right now.

You all can do better. Stop claiming there's nothing wrong.


There's nothing wrong. Or very little at least. You should take your own advice in the opposite direction.
09/15/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Phumbles
There's nothing wrong.


Or maybe the problem is too big for people to properly see.

You could be looking at a giant tree with a base of twenty feet and not realize there is an infestation of termites inside.
Snowfox was good. That was it really.

I'm on mobile so picking out the parts of this is difficult. I do understand wanting people to improve and help themselves. I also understand that seeing lol scaling sucks, bfa is trash, i spent 4 hours on the shell game nerf plox, gets tiring as well. Right now the forum "hivemind" (and human pallies) are all bashing on "horde bias". Yet when confronted with evidence tjat doesn't align. They just go back to shouting horde bias.

To an extent let people be themselves. Just worry about your guild and its people. It's a lot less stress for something beyond your control.


You're on mobile and actually read all that, bless you my friend.

This guy has turned from apparently tyrannizing GD for months into a weepy person who quit at the drop of a hat and post his full WoW resume in every reply he makes.

You have the patience of Job to wade through it.
I'm not a fan of Metrohaha. But I respect his/her willingness to stay engaged in this thread in a positive way, listening to feedback and accepting criticism, some of which is openly hostile. There's no denying that the negative feedback is warranted, and perhaps Metro is staying in this thread to avoid losing the green text. But putting cynicism aside, Metro deserves credit for his/her efforts right here, right now.
09/15/2018 08:24 PMPosted by Lethalpower
Snowfox was good. That was it really.


Snowfox would disagree.
09/15/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Phumbles
09/15/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Luminaria
Stop the fake damage control. All I've read today is derailment, complete obviousness about what is talked about, and flat out lies.

You don't have to agree with the community all the time.
You should give your opinion.
Don't be blatantly ridiculous about the reality of the game right now.

You all can do better. Stop claiming there's nothing wrong.


There's nothing wrong. Or very little at least. You should take your own advice in the opposite direction.


Read context. The original thread started yesterday, due to AMA insanity in the forums. We’ve all expressed, and explained quite a lot since then and it’s turned out to be a very constructive thread. For everyone, mostly.

I am always happy to correct my wrongdoings if and when. This thread was never about attacking, but rather bringing up things I felt were occurring that deterred us from being better as a community.

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