Tank balance & representation, 9 weeks in

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 4 5 6
Specific Mythic fights, by boss, for the past week only, taken November 6th:

Taloc
6628 Death Knight
3811 Monk
3433 Paladin
1797 Demon Hunter
1394 Druid
1137 Warrior

MOTHER
5565 Death Knight
3491 Monk
2508 Paladin
1492 Demon Hunter
1091 Druid
880 Warrior

And then we hit the point where everyone who isn't a Death Knight or a Monk starts to fall off like a stone.

ZEK'VOZ
3371 Death Knight
2062 Monk
947 Paladin
661 Demon Hunter
454 Druid
322 Warrior

VECTIS
2035 Death Knight
1642 Monk
652 Paladin
413 Demon Hunter
297 Druid
236 Warrior

FETID
1318 Death Knight
1316 Monk
367 Paladin
210 Demon Hunter
181 Druid
134 Warrior
(Few changes here this week. Death Knights moved ahead of Monks and Demon Hunters moved ahead of Druids.)

ZUL
924 Monk
880 Death Knight
773 Demon Hunter
373 Paladin
155 Druid
116 Warrior

MYTHRAX
452 Death Knight
418 Monk
85 Paladin
42 Demon Hunter
28 Druid (tie)
28 Warrior (tie)
Another fight where Death Knights moved ahead of Monks this week.

G'HUUN
222 Monk
125 Death Knight
32 Paladin
18 Demon Hunter
11 Druid
10 Warrior
09/18/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Lina
I don't think DKs need nerfs; I think Warriors & Bears need buffs.

Honestly, nerfing tanks doesn't help anyone. All tanks should be strong & viable, because even when that's the case it's the least played role in the game. It'll be very counter productive to nerf Dks & monks because bear & warrior kits aren't competitive.

The real solution is to ... make their kits competitive.


I agree.

Simply nerfing the top won't make the bottom get brought more. It'll help DH get M+ tank spots because they'll now be the best available and people will take them more because now it's their best option, but will do nothing for anyone else. People are still not going to bring bears and warriors. They might bring a pally if there's no DH available.

It's hard going by these numbers. Because even a 1% difference will cause a huge rift in representation at that level of play. People will simply go "no you aren't the best go away". Buff the underpreforming classes so they can preform closer to the top and you'll see them brought more and have more clears.
11/06/2018 02:16 AMPosted by Tewa
And then we hit the point where everyone who isn't a Death Knight or a Monk starts to fall off like a stone.


That's because the farther you go in progression the more min maxing you see and the more people simply deny entry to a class/spec simply because it isn't the best. Clearly Bears and warriors can tank Ghun on mythic. BUT they aren't the best so most never get the chance because "No we have to have these specific tanks because they're the best, you have to go dps/heals". Because that's what happens at the top end of the spectrum.
11/06/2018 02:52 AMPosted by Rotraz
11/06/2018 02:16 AMPosted by Tewa
And then we hit the point where everyone who isn't a Death Knight or a Monk starts to fall off like a stone.


That's because the farther you go in progression the more min maxing you see and the more people simply deny entry to a class/spec simply because it isn't the best. Clearly Bears and warriors can tank Ghun on mythic. BUT they aren't the best so most never get the chance because "No we have to have these specific tanks because they're the best, you have to go dps/heals". Because that's what happens at the top end of the spectrum.


No, a lot of it is self selection. Many tanks saw the writing on the wall and rerolled to Monk or Death Knight before the expansion came out. Even long-time players of other classes.

My co-tank has been a Warrior since vanilla, but after the first couple weeks of Uldir he finally broke down, shelved his Warrior, and made a Death Knight.

For Mythic Fetid, I just sat out on that fight. Because I knew we'd be better off with having our Windwalker sit there as a Brewmaster to soak the Thrashes rather than have me do it. Made things a lot easier for the healers.

I should be a Monk. Plenty of other Druids did. But I would rather quit than change the character I've played for over 10 years. Go take a look at the Guardian Druid discussion thread. You'll see a lot of the same sentiment. (And a lot of people saying that if 8.1 doesn't fix it - which it won't - then they'll be leaving the game.)
11/06/2018 02:52 AMPosted by Rotraz
11/06/2018 02:16 AMPosted by Tewa
And then we hit the point where everyone who isn't a Death Knight or a Monk starts to fall off like a stone.


That's because the farther you go in progression the more min maxing you see and the more people simply deny entry to a class/spec simply because it isn't the best.


While I agree with the sentiment, the reality is that most players only have two perceptions of a spec's viability: The 'best at X' and 'dumpster fire.' If you're not a part of the former group perception, you'll find yourself occasionally getting denied from even trivial content. This of course is further exacerbated as difficulty increases, regardless of whether or not a spec is suitable for the content in question.

Yes, this means that there's a problem with the community's perception of class viability, but it also means that Blizz should be that much more attentive to proper balancing. Exactly how far into the expansion do we need to get before they make any substantive changes?
11/06/2018 04:37 AMPosted by Signey
Exactly how far into the expansion do we need to get before they make any substantive changes?


This is really the big problem. Blizzard keeps promising 8.1 as the god savior to all the issues, but we've seen them hotfix other classes if they were egregious (assa rogue/bm/rdruid/arms warr in pvp all got nerfed). People shouldn't have to wait months for a character or spec to be viable. They literally missed an entire raid tier.

And 8.1 brings a new raid with new gimmicks and fights. Who knows what classes might suddenly become viable, birng some cheese, or be completely worthless. So they are balancing for Uldir when Siegev2 comes out. And if those classes still aren't fixed, they get to sit out another 4 months?
Ive recenlty have become more dedicated to the game. I love prot pally and the way it plays..however the fix to this tank issue should be across the board. Like one post said no tanks should get nerfed and all should have real viability with unique abilties that in essence do the same thing, survive and do damage..just different and if played correctly just as efficient..the challenge in the game imo is not to win with the perfect setup but learn and be creative with different specs to beat the boss. Because the group is going to wipe 11 times anyway..lol. Much love to the community and have fun.
Guardian's problem in particular is that for a long time (dating back to the end of Legion) they've just been utterly horrible at M+ once you get into higher keys. This naturally means that unless you're a Guardian purist or playing multiple specs you're not going to suffer through that miserable experience over and above not bringing anything special to raid encounters. Thus the nosedive in representation. Warriors have a similar problem.

It remains to be seen how much this is going to be addressed in 8.1. If getting Vortex back is real, that's going to be a big deal (honestly a lot bigger than a lot of people are making it out to be). Removing movement abilities from the GCD is also going to affect both Warriors and Guardians significantly.

It's not by any means perfect, but addressing the M+ issues will go a long way in impacting representation in Mythic.
While buffing everyone up to the level of the #1 tank is in theory the best option, it is also not possible in many sense. For obvious reasons, or at least I think so.

Ask a Blood DK why blood is so popular, and most will not say its because they are over tuned. They will say its because of their kit (utility) that they bring, combined with the ability to self sustain while a healers focus is elsewhere.

The truth is EVEN IF you brought all tanks up to a level where numerically, they took the same HPS to keep alive, or say within 5% of each other. Blood DK would still be the most popular for Mythic +.

I mean to get a Protection Warrior to be that viable, with their lack of utility. They would need to be able to soak things that would 1 shot a BDK. Their HPS needed would need to be like half the BDKs, just to rival their utility.

So sadly, we get this Nerf X, BUFF Y, round and round it goes. It can never really be balance with the as long as they don't have comparable tool kits. NOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN HOMOGENIZE. The kits don't need to be 100% matches.

It just means that if tank A kites and Tank B can't, then Tank be needs to be able to tank those mobs easily.

If Tank B can Stun, then Tank A needs a Stun or Daze or comparable CC effect.

Finally, one of the issues I see that does not get mentioned is why 4 Tanks can Resurrect their allies and 2 cannot. In Lore it makes sense, but those 2 should receive something pretty nice as a trade off for that. As is the kits are not balanced in the slightest which makes other tuning even more screwed.
11/09/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Seèlah
It remains to be seen how much this is going to be addressed in 8.1. If getting Vortex back is real, that's going to be a big deal (honestly a lot bigger than a lot of people are making it out to be). Removing movement abilities from the GCD is also going to affect both Warriors and Guardians significantly.

Funny things about your post:
1. We get Vortex back but lose Intimidating Roar, so it's a nerf.
2. Feral Charge coming off the GCD doesn't mean much since it's on the same talent row as Vortex. So you can get one or the other.

So much for "significant". A better description would be "pathetic".
11/09/2018 10:59 PMPosted by Tewa
1. We get Vortex back but lose Intimidating Roar, so it's a nerf.
Vortex is straight better (since it easily gives you more than 3 seconds of mob downtime) except against casters. But since casters should be interrupted anyway, I don't see the issue.

11/09/2018 10:59 PMPosted by Tewa
2. Feral Charge coming off the GCD doesn't mean much since it's on the same talent row as Vortex. So you can get one or the other.
But it does impact Dash, no?
Vortex is straight better (since it easily gives you more than 3 seconds of mob downtime) except against casters. But since casters should be interrupted anyway, I don't see the issue.


I'll quote myself from the Guardian thread. (The one with over a thousand posts that Blizzard probably hasn't even looked at.)

11/05/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Tewa
And I want to say again how angry I am that Intimidating Roar is being removed.

I was running M+'s tonight (12 Waycrest and 10 Boralus) and I rely on this spell to save my neck. Kept thinking all night about how M+ is going to be even worse after it's removed.

I use Intimidating Roar to stop incoming damage for 2 seconds so my healer can catch up.
I use Intimidating Roar to stop spellcasting. Including some non-interruptable spells.
Ursol's Vortex isn't going to do any of that. All Ursol's does is stop things like Ghuun parasites from running away but Intimidating Roar already does that, too.

I really feel like we're getting nerfed (AGAIN) in 8.1. Not buffed.
If Legion and Guardian Druids have taught us anything, they simply do not care about tank balance. Best of luck for 9.0.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum