Azerite has failed, for now

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


Tier set bonuses
09/21/2018 03:17 PMPosted by Aellah
Basically, your fear is unfounded. Unless you're admitting that you can't create compelling raid content. If the raids are fun, exciting and appropriately challenging, people will do them.


Yes, that.

If Azerite does not come out of end of dungeon M+ chests, it *MUST* also drop from the weekly, and should seek to prioritize slot coverage via behind-the-scenes algorithm. There are simply too many combinations to keep it all luck at 1x/week frequency (particularly when trait balance is poor, but that isn't the complete fix!!!).

Edit- or rejigger the whole thing and turn the neck into Kanai's cube from D3 where you unlock traits you can then select in combinations on your Azerite armor pieces. Get rid of HoA level unlocking rings and make everything scale with HoA level (ilvl of armor slots goes up with neck ->trait effectivity goes up with ilvl). Now grinding means something other than (re) unlocking Azerite powers you already had on lower ilvl pieces.
Another M+ Stopgap:

Let people reroll what they get from their weekly chests, like you do in Heroes of the Storm. Barring that, let them pick between whether azerite gear is rolled or just other standard gear.
So, you want people to play content, but don't want to reward them for it or incentivize them to do it?

Great system.

There's absolutely no reason azerite armor shouldn't drop in mythic+.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.


Since you need to gear out 3 slots, it's going to take 3 weeks just to gear up for one slot with perfect RNG (no duplicates). Then you add off-spec gear, so that's another 6 weeks for a total of 9 weeks (Obviously DHs and druids are different). Considering you still need a piece with the traits you want to drop (because let's be real, you guys aren't going to balance the traits within a barely acceptable range of even 10%), let's be generous and say that half the traits will be close enough to BiS, and double the amount of weeks it takes to get the gear you want from such a scheme: 18 weeks. How long do raid tiers exist for again? And that's assuming they do a max level key, every week, for the entire time! By the time anyone truly gears up from what you deem to be "too lucrative", the new M+ season will be out or keystones greater than +10 will start dropping better gear, and they'll still be trying to get better gear.

Yeah I don't think it's really that lucrative.
While it is easy to agree that raiding should remain more rewarding than M+.


I'll agree with this at the mythic raid level. Puggable content has no reason to be better than mythic plus and heroic raids are easily puggable. If not in the first few weeks, then shortly after.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
Couple things:

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


But the thing is the raids don't have the desired traits, and since the trait system is badly tuned. we are stuck hoping for a VERY small chance that our m+ cache will have our BIS trait in it. It feels worse than farming legendaries was.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
Couple things:

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


https://gyazo.com/36b2bbceff7d979b420efa7f90757a04

the mythic plus issue can be sorted you have 340 355 370 385 azerite gear , raiding atm why not make azerite gear drop at the ilvl of the mythic dungeon you comeplete there is not much of a difference of it dropping atm , even make it 340 for up to 5 355 up to 8 then have it cap at 370 for 10s 385 for 15s in the future when you open it up to higher ilvls , as the ilvl rises you tweak the averages across azerite gear ,

or remove azerite as a whole put it into the neck piece and make it an item similar to relics that drop at 340 to 385 , as a person who doesn't like raiding due to the fact OCE servers are toxic towards other players but cant xfer to another server due to 222 to 300 ms on us servers ,

i also believe maybe adding a video guide into the journal may smooth out some of the issues in the player base around mythic plus as most people wont read the journal and refuse to even listen to other people trying to tell them that they need to stun or interupt certain things ,

i have a few great ideas for the game but never post as i feel your team as a whole doesnt listen to the community ,

if i get a reply back to this id be more then happy to list some of my ideas on a forum or in a ticket , some of them are quite simple ideas and some are more complex
09/21/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Krenna
09/21/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Louree
...

Thats what beta was for. Good job on getting almost nothing out of the very short beta testing. Not that you would listen anyway. This xpac had even more hype than WoD and it fell flat just as bad if not worse.


They had a beta? When was that? Because the current game seems like a beta. So many broken things (classes specially) that I dont know how he or any Dev could call this a proper release.

But yeah, they had some "internal testing" in which they completely ignore feedback about multiple things, like classes.

It reaaaallly does seem like a beta... like why release unfinished content to a playerbase WHO PAYS TO PLAY THE DAMN GAME!?

This costs ME money I bust my !@# to earn and Blizzard can hardly communicate, let alone properly, what they are doing about the oh so very clear grievances PLAYERS have...

Where is all this money going if not to the game and wages of people working their asses off to improve it?(which couldn’t be happening at this point)
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
Couple things:

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


From playing both Horde and Alliance, the Emissaries continually drop weapons on Alliance and Azerite Cache on Horde. I wonder why the Emissaries rotate the same, but the rewards do not.

ie. Proudmoore Admiralty (Zandalari Empire) was recently up. My Alliance Demon Hunter had a Weapon. My Horde Demon Hunter and My Horde Rogue both had Azerite Caches.
09/21/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Sefirosuwar
Why not add code in the chest that checks if that toon has
full clear the raid on Normal and did 4+key the chest has a guaranteed 355 azerite
full clear the raid on Heroic and did 7+key the chest has a guaranteed 370 azerite
full clear the raid on Heroic and did 10+key the chest has a guaranteed 385 azerite

1 piece for week
The player base is incentivized for clearing raid and doing mythic plus keys appropriate for the key level and raid level they are doing.

something like that solves the lack of Azeriate drops and still pushes players to raid.

Sorry, but this is a bad idea. That just forces people to raid even if they don't want to.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
Couple things:

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


The problem is that a lot of the BiS trait combinations are from M+ and cannot be farmed. This also presents the problem that even with 30 or 40 ilvl difference, it's still better for some classes to go back and farm M0 for the pieces anyway.

It might be better in the long haul to make pieces give 4 outer traits specifically for your spec and not just 1.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.


This is worrying to me. I feel like you are totally missing what the greatest strength of Azerite Armor could be: Flexibility. I feel you are missing what players find most fun: options. It seems as though you are so focused on fighting min/maxers that you won't let your systems be flexible enough to be fun.

Your players are damn near begging you to let them grind and farm for this gear, but you won't let them. I think your arguments about "keeping raiding a little more lucrative based on additional difficulty/challenge of managing more people" is very disingenuous when titanforging exists and when you eliminated master loot for organized raiding guilds.

As a possible solution, how about you let M+ drop Azerite armor at 370, and then give back master looter for guild groups, or at least mythic raids. There's so much wasted gear without master looter that any additional lucrativeness in raids is already moot, so you're just punishing people that would prefer not to raid to acquire azerite gear.

Tuning is certainly an issue, but also be aware that hotfix notes of traits being buffed by upwards of 200-300% or nerfed by more than 50% is NOT "just tuning." Blizzard can do better than that. Stop making excuses.

Also, I think that trying to tune all these traits to be close enough to each other to where it doesn't matter which traits you have completely defeats the purpose of having different traits. What's the point of hunting gear carrots if all the carrots are the same? What's the point of having all these different traits that could be better in different situations if we can't switch between them like we can talents? Why have this huge system if you won't let players use it in ways that are interesting and FUN?
I agree with others.

WoW devs crusade against min/maxers is making Azerite very infexible and punishing. It is punishing to the rest of the 90% of the player base because these players are attempting to have some fun with variety and options.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
Couple things:

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.

Every single thing that I wrote in a post about the removal of Azerite gear from m+ after it was announced has come to pass and my opinion has not changed:
There is just no way to fix this situation without adding them back to the loot table again.
If you "feel" - you seem to "feel" so many things these days- that it devalues raiding, then maybe give azerite gear in raids - although controversial- a chance to titanforge for 15ilvl or increase the propabilites to get it.
You made this mess and it is similarily ridiculous like the secondary stat issues that rings and neck had in Legion.
Maybe start !@#$ing listening if you are not able to create systems that work well together.
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
Couple things:

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


I honestly don't care if the delta is large in certain situations for class traits, my issue is generic traits being far and above class traits. My best raid ST set up is 2 raid generics and 1 class trait. That isn't fun or interesting in the slightes to legitimately just have flat stats filling up my traits. I could unequip 2/3 of my azerite gear and see no rotation difference.
There are too many azerite traits. They will never be balanced.
I haven't posted in years, but given my feelings towards the direction of this game, I have a couple things as well:

09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore

We agree that the trait imbalance is a real problem right now. We made a bunch of tuning adjustments last week, and have more planned for the very near future (primarily focused on buffing underperforming traits). We see this as the source of most of the frustrations with the system; if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.


This should've been identified during beta and was finally addressed in live (but not during the 3 weeks before raids). It should not have taken this long to actually identify and fix. As others have said, sims/discord/live data have been out there. I assume there's also internal testing. I don't understand how this could've slipped through this many resources.

09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore

We also agree that the Mythic+ Azerite Armor situation isn't ideal. However, we need to be careful with how we award Azerite Armor through M+. Right now, easier access to Azerite Armor is one of the main advantages that raiding has over gearing exclusively through Mythic+, and we want to keep some additional benefit there as compensation for the extra effort and coordination needed to organize a raid team. That's is why we're hesitant to do something like add a guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor to the weekly chest - it'd be too lucrative.


The main advantage of Azerite gear from raiding should be the raid only Azerite traits. There's not enough combinations from raid gear to cover what people potentially want.

Mythics, however, offer these combinations. A guaranteed piece of Azerite Armor is not necessarily going to be my BiS or even a piece I might use! As it currently stands, we have BLP which I feel is not a good system to counter the 2 rolls of RNG (1 roll for actually getting an Azerite piece and another roll for which piece it is). Waiting weeks (or even months) for an Azerite piece from weekly chest is getting awfully close to how it felt with legendaries back at the start of Legion expansion (When will I get one/BLP + will it be a good one...) Please don't give me the "High item level excuse" because right now traits aren't tuned well enough for item level to be the only indicator whether an piece is a viable upgrade or not yet.

09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore

But like I said, we do agree that the current setup can be frustrating. We're looking for better options.


If the current setup is can be frustrating, why not remove the frustration with a temporary solution that is not frustrating until a better option can be found. Why keep us feeling bad, when we can be made to feel better until something more reasonable can be put in place?
09/21/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Lore
if the delta between your best and worst traits wasn't so big, it'd be less frustrating when a piece of Azerite armor doesn't have your best trait on it.

True as long as we are talking about traits that have no impact on the playstyle, which seems to be the case for most.

But if it didn't matter because all traits are passives of similar strength, what have you created this !@#$ ton of traits for? Or why is there even any Azerite gear?

Also I am not sure if the situation can be "fixed" like this for healers and tanks anyway.

And where are all the meaningful choices that Ion wants us to have? I rarely see real choices on azerite gear unless I have to decide between specs - which btw. sucks exactly as we said during beta.

Without targetable traits this system is even worse than Legendaries, because we have to play the lottery with each tier again.

This whole system makes no sense and you have been ignoring this feedback for many months.
Lore,

The real issue you did not address is that acquiring azurite pieces sucks for raiders too. We get one chest option for cloth in the raid? This is awful.

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