State of Shadow, 8.1 Edition

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They do need to address the MB VB overlap for sure. I'd also like to see death back to baseline its kinda gross seeing it as a talent still.
Yeah, that blue post...

/smh

DR on Disp and DF is great, but the issues that have gone ignored...
don't let this thread die, the changes we got are pitiful.
The changes don't fix everything and they may not be super amazing but honestly, it's better than nothing imo and better than being left in the dark like we had been. It's a start, just need to keep giving feedback. I was very doubtful that we'd receive a full rework due to obvious reasons. Heck I didn't even think we'd get any changes, just more dps tuning and they'd call it a day.

So while yeah it may not be exactly what the community wanted, it's a start.
10/22/2018 08:02 PMPosted by Nethercrush
10/22/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Jujoh
Damn. I really don't post that often. but I would give up EVERYTHING just for an answer. I love m+ over raid any day. Am I re rolling my mage or not. I damn love my spriest, but I sure love killing monster and getting loot over warming up a bench looking for a group.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769647823#post-1

Finally got one.


I am super unimpressed. Maybe the biggest buff there is focused will. Will it stack two times like it does on other specs? Or are we getting the nerfed disc version, where it only stacks once? Is this going to stack with edge of insanity? Because if it stacks twice, with edge of insanity, uh, that's going to be a whole hell of a lot of baseline DR. Combine that with the dispersion heal and movement speed and we could all of a sudden become super hard to kill. Edge of Insanity is a bad talent to even exist, though. Should stack twice and just get rid of edge of insanity.

The buff to dispersion DR, and the movement speed increase, and the new talent that gives it a heal is cool, but I'm worried that the movement speed isn't going to do much other than make melee burn a root or snare, in which case dispersion goes right back to being nearly as useless as it was before. I would have much rather seen the heal be baseline, and the movement speed be part of that talent row.

This is a series of fairly large defensive and offensive buffs, which we needed as we were pretty seriously undertuned. But they didn't address the *basic mechanical problems* with the class. Rather than just buffing voidform, they needed to make mechanical changes. At the very, absolute least, void eruption needed to be decoupled from triggering voidform. They didn't do that.

This is going to make the class feel better, but I don't know if it's going to make the class feel any less clunky, and it's not going to change the fact that we're always going to be fluctuating wildly when it comes to balance.

Oh well. This is a definitive answer that we're not getting any mechanical changes for BFA. I'll stick around for 8.1 to see how it feels at least.
I am happy with revealed changes to shadow. I believe there will be more, because for example dispersion buff is mentioned, but no changes to its pvp talent.
Perhaps we will get pvp talents revision in addition to revealed changes?
I still believe in you devs! Sneak that spectral guise somewhere guise!
well, i don't want to complain about getting a blue post after a month of complaining about no blue posts, but i do wish they could have just said "we have nothing to say at the moment, but we are aware of some issues and intend to have some changes in place for 8.1 (or whenever)" at least to let us know that we're not just yelling into an empty room.

and while i will admit that i was wrong in my certainty that we wouldn't get any changes, i'm not sure what to think about THESE changes. i absolutely don't think any of this will make Shadow FEEL better or more fun. there are some that i like (Hallucinations)

but i still can't understand why they choose to not address some stuff that we have been saying for ages that they have addressed in other specs baseline. (IE Fury/Shadow similarities) - just as i also don't understand why they insist on making things that should be (in some form) baseline into talented abilities/buffs

my big disappointments with the given changes are:
no baseline SWD
no baseline 2 charges MB
no real movement fix (if anything, the removal of Mania seems bad)
no decoupling of Void Eruption/DA
10/23/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Kaloran
<span class="truncated">...</span>

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769647823#post-1

Finally got one.


I am super unimpressed. Maybe the biggest buff there is focused will. Will it stack two times like it does on other specs? Or are we getting the nerfed disc version, where it only stacks once? Is this going to stack with edge of insanity? Because if it stacks twice, with edge of insanity, uh, that's going to be a whole hell of a lot of baseline DR. Combine that with the dispersion heal and movement speed and we could all of a sudden become super hard to kill. Edge of Insanity is a bad talent to even exist, though. Should stack twice and just get rid of edge of insanity.

The buff to dispersion DR, and the movement speed increase, and the new talent that gives it a heal is cool, but I'm worried that the movement speed isn't going to do much other than make melee burn a root or snare, in which case dispersion goes right back to being nearly as useless as it was before. I would have much rather seen the heal be baseline, and the movement speed be part of that talent row.

This is a series of fairly large defensive and offensive buffs, which we needed as we were pretty seriously undertuned. But they didn't address the *basic mechanical problems* with the class. Rather than just buffing voidform, they needed to make mechanical changes. At the very, absolute least, void eruption needed to be decoupled from triggering voidform. They didn't do that.

This is going to make the class feel better, but I don't know if it's going to make the class feel any less clunky, and it's not going to change the fact that we're always going to be fluctuating wildly when it comes to balance.

Oh well. This is a definitive answer that we're not getting any mechanical changes for BFA. I'll stick around for 8.1 to see how it feels at least.


That's been my initial impression. They are not addressing any of the mechanical issues with the spec caused by voidform, nor qre they addressing the removal of things that used to be baseline but have to be talented now like SWD or the heal for dispersion. The changes are certainly welcome to make us competitive damage wise, but doesn't make up for the cancer playstyle that voidform brings without legendary traits.
10/23/2018 07:50 AMPosted by Kryss
well, i don't want to complain about getting a blue post after a month of complaining about no blue posts, but i do wish they could have just said "we have nothing to say at the moment, but we are aware of some issues and intend to have some changes in place for 8.1 (or whenever)" at least to let us know that we're not just yelling into an empty room.

[/quote]

Yeah, absolutely this. It doesn't matter that we eventually got a buff, the complete lack of communication for months and months is absolutely unforgivable.
its a good start! keep working! ty N'zoth!!
They also really need to look at chorus of insanity. It already was the bis trait and woth the changes allowing longer vf times it will be even more valuable. They either need to bring the other traits in line or do something to balance chorus.
10/23/2018 04:57 AMPosted by Vaani
Heck I didn't even think we'd get any changes, just more dps tuning and they'd call it a day.

[/quote]

That's pretty much all it was, dps tuning that could have been delivered in a hotfix, instead we're waiting til 8.1 for "changes" that boil down to little more than dps buffs.
So, while the changes are welcome, they really do seem half-hearted. I like the survivability buff, I think - I'll have to try it and see. I would have preferred a snare, so mobs aren't beating on me all the time. The rest are just another way of giving us a dps buff. Nice to have, but don't address the mechanics of the spec.

Tier 15 - Shadow Word: Void still required due to not addressing the issue of Void Bolt and Mind Blast coming off CD at the same time. I like Shadowy Insight, but it remains far behind the other options. SW:V really should be baseline.

Tier 30 - now, we're forced to choose between mobility and healing. Shadow has no effective movement abilities, so B&S is required if we need to move. Maybe Mania should just be made baseline here? Shadow needs some sort of baseline mobility.

Tier 45 - Twist of Fate just doesn't belong here. An execute talent competing against two AoE talents makes no sense.

Tier 60 - no major issues here, though Mind Bomb is weak and should have remained a stun.

Tier 75 - Same as every other shadow priest - Shadow Word: Death should be baseline. At the very least, it's in the wrong place. Why is a ST execute sharing a row with two AoE talents? This is totally contrary to Blizzard's own stated design goals.

Tier 90 - We'll see how this sims out, so not sure yet. However, Mindbender seems required to make shadowfiend be useful at all. Shadowfiend has to be the most useless CD in the game. If it's this weak, it should have a much shorter CD.

Tier 100 - Why is S2M even a thing? Let it go, already.

Ultimately, for me, the big misses by Blizzard are the failure to fix the MB/VB issue and SW:D, along with a failure to give any sort of useful utility that would make shadow wanted in M+ or raids. Even if SW:D isn't baseline, it shouldn't be competing with two AoE talents. This seems like a minimalist approach to the spec that shouldn't have had to wait months to implement.
id never really given much thought to Shadowfiend/Mind Bender until i started seeing other SP talk about it and how unremarkable it is, ESPECIALLY compared to other class/spec 3 minute CDs (or 1 m for Mindbender)

you know what's kind of sad is there's even a glyph to change the appearance but you know how many times i've actually noticed my Shadowfiend/Mindbender in the world? the only time i EVER notice the stupid thing is if my target dies and it comes back to float next to me. that's it. there's some pretty cool 3 minute effects out there. what a stupid ability.
10/23/2018 11:37 AMPosted by Kryss
id never really given much thought to Shadowfiend/Mind Bender until i started seeing other SP talk about it and how unremarkable it is, ESPECIALLY compared to other class/spec 3 minute CDs (or 1 m for Mindbender)

you know what's kind of sad is there's even a glyph to change the appearance but you know how many times i've actually noticed my Shadowfiend/Mindbender in the world? the only time i EVER notice the stupid thing is if my target dies and it comes back to float next to me. that's it. there's some pretty cool 3 minute effects out there. what a stupid ability.


I honestly really hate Shadowfiend/Mindbender. I hate having a "pet" on CD. It is easily my least favorite spell spriest has, just because I despise pet classes and I hate anything that comes close to it. (One of the reasons that I like spriest as a "dark caster" archetype way more than warlock.)

It does have its uses outside of the typical rotation. I shouldn't have HAD to rely on this, but Mindbender + fade saved me sometimes during this expansion while leveling.

I dunno. Obviously at this point the spell isn't going away. But I'd feel better if it did the exact same thing it does right now, while not looking like a pet at all. Maybe a glyph that changes it to something like weird floating void orbs, so at least you could pretend it was a spell and not a pet. I just want to be a dark caster without a pet at all, damn it.
i have done that as well, and basically every rare mob in the world that is exactly what i do (Mindbender tank/Fade) - it's still HOT GARBAGE even for that because again, i just press the button and honestly i generally don't even see the stupid thing, if the mob is bigger than a Gnome the Mindbender/Shadowfiend graphic just gets swallowed by the mob.

besides visual impact, it's just another horrifically blatant example of Shadow really not being fun, which, for the most part, it is not fun more than it is fun (for me personally, i won't claim to speak for everyone other than anyone i have heard from directly) like, you press a button and this stupid thing that you don't even see does damage for a few seconds.

you know what would have been better IMO? i don't know that i've seen a Shadow Priest that was SUPER grateful for the loss of the Tentabros. so, remove the stupid Shadowfiend/Mindbender and give us a shorter CD Tentabro ability. maybe spawn X amount of them over X amount of seconds to channel damage, or spawn X amount that do ramping damage channels.

hell, just take away a pet spawn entirely and give us a damage CD that makes some kind of meaningful playstyle impact that isn't "PRESS BUTTON DO MORE DAMAGE 30 SECONDS = FUN RIGHT PLAYERS?!"

the most fun i have had on my Priest since BFA went live is doing WQ at max level is playing my random BG build with instant Void Eruption and DA. i just bubble and run around dotting everything in range and then V. Embrace instant VE and DA immediately. i usually drop preeeeeetty low because as we all know there's no reliable way to kite or slow things that you attack, but those 3 abilities put me back to full basically in that one shot. of course, you've gotta kill the 20 mobs you just pulled pretty quickly after that full heal or you could die, but hey.

so, that's the fun i have had in BFA. (essentially) 3 button presses that take like what, 3-5 seconds to press with the GCD?

the more i think about how sad a state Shadow is in the more angry i get, and the more i think about the proposed changes the more angry i get.

i want to be grateful because we are getting something, i want to be grateful for information. but after years of feedback which we were told was appreciated, to have the design shifted in this manner, ugh. and i get it, our feedback doesn't mean you're going to listen to it, but ugh. i really feel like the people designing SP do not play SP. i'm trying not to see red, but i am.

at least Wizk's initial response to seeing the changes seemed really hype, and i trust him to know better about SP in PVP than what i know. i hope he'll go into detail soon. i heard that some of the higher Priests felt at least somewhat positive about the changes, but i haven't confirmed that yet or read their thoughts.

BTW, i think it was you that said you wanted a Void/Shadow themed shield, or the removal of shield and buff like self healing thru VT to compensate? i have been saying that FOREEEEEEEEEEEVER, and once each Mage spec got it's own themed shield ability, i was like... uh, hello? we've had the same friggin PWS graphic for like 14 years. why not remove PWS entirely like you did for Holy and let shields be EXCLUSIVELY for Disc, and give Shadow abilities or buff existing abilities to compensate?
Posted in the main changes thread but figured I'd post here as well.

Just played the ptr for a while and have to say this will definitely change the base talents that most of us have been using so far. Legacy of the void/lingering insanity with the 5% increase damage buff feels like it will be the go to for raiding now imo. Void torrent and s2m still feel utterly useless. Dark ascension is probably going to be more situational now, maybe for m+ to decrease ramp time or in mass aoe fights where void eruption is relevant. It still does not address pretty much any of the spriest complaints though and for single target after the flat 3% damage decrease modifier still feels horriiibbbllleeeee. Needs to be something to boost st numbers because it just feels absolutely terrible even with single target talents. And swp drops way too often. Just feels completely off.
I am happy with the changes.
I know these all are a bandaid for lost arm, but it stops bleeding until 9.0. Hopefully there will be full-scope rework with Voidform removal.

At least I can play my Shadow now and not feel bad for doing that.
I just played around with the new changes in the PTR and I'm not impressed. They say they want longer voidforms, but the changes are too minor to really make much of a difference.

The longest voidform I got was 32 stacks and that was with using Void Torrent and Shadow Fiend on a target dummy. In any normal encounter, with all the movement, I still see us hanging around the 22-25 stacks range.

Do note, my haste is a bit on the lower end (15% outside of uldir), so mileage may vary, but compared to live, I'm not noticing much of a difference in the feel/rotation/length of voidform.

One of the things that's potentially killing voidform uptime is the god awful synchronicity of the SWP and VT durations. The only way I could avoid having to refresh my dots mid-voidform was to recast both dots before void eruption, even if they had a decent amount of duration left on them. The spec still feels clunky and there are still some core mechanical issues with the class that these current changes do nothing to address.

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