MM Hunters are broken, with no fix in sight.

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
First of all, yes, obligatory acknowledgement that BM is easy and we have a ranged spec available. I mean, it's been nerfed in every patch so far this expac to the point that it's mid tier at best for PvE, and useless for high level PvP, but sure, it's sorta viable-ish.

Marksmanship spec on the other hand, has been completely broken since day 1, and there hasn't been a single mention of fixing it since BfA started. Marks is now the lowest used, and lowest dps class for Mythic +, and Mythic raiding, and is only just above Prot Warriors and Brewmaster for high level arena representation.

The problems with Marks spec goes beyond just a simple number tweak for talents and abilities too. When Lone Wolf was introduced, it gave Hunters the class fantasy of being a solo sniper, and the ability to compete without having to use a pet. Currently, it's so bad that unless it's a multi target fight, it's actually a dps loss to not be using a pet of some sort. As well as this, the utility of the class has been pruned successively to the point that it's nearly useless for solo PvE and world content, it has almost zero survivability or sustain.

Our rotation is extremely clunky at best, and our top performing Azerite power somehow makes it worse, and turns it into a 3 button class, Steadyx5, Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire. It has a single burst ability that's extremely underwhelming, and on a long cooldown, so is nearly useless on most Mythic+ runs.

The cast time of our top damaging ability is so slow I've had people run from the middle of Nagrand Arena to get around a pole before it managed to actually cast. Not to mention you can't move at all while using it, so you become a massive target trying to get off a cast. People are actually trying to make Marks PvP builds that completely ignore our strongest ability because of how useless it is.

Our best aoe talent has been broken since introduction too. Explosive shot bugs out constantly, glitches on terrain, throws out your whole rotation while you sit waiting for it to fly through the air, doesn't go off half the time, and any sort of world lag means actually landing it is nearly impossible unless you're at point blank range.

All of these issues have been getting reported, and angrily discussed every day over on the Hunter forums since beta as well, nothing has been changed, not a single blue post even acknowledging any of the multitudes of issues being talked about, and with this new patch, I thought there would finally be something being done about it, and yet nothing.

This is not good enough Blizz, and you need to fix it.
Straight up, just quit the game man. They don’t care.
> Joins arena
> Teammates head turns
> You know they're inspecting you
> They see MM

"WTF"

- silence -

"lets just /afk"

No joke. This happened to me last night.
10/04/2018 11:53 AMPosted by Mykrode
> Joins arena
> Teammates head turns
> You know they're inspecting you
> They see MM

"WTF"

- silence -

"lets just /afk"

No joke. This happened to me last night.
to pvp as mm you must have the true shot trait, the only way to make mm worth even alittle bit in pvp.
Has there been even a single blue post on MM? Lol it's so poorly designed. Zzzzz
10/04/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Faceslap
to pvp as mm you must have the true shot trait, the only way to make mm worth even alittle bit in pvp.


Just picked up a second piece of Azerite with trueshot (i355) and yes you are right, it has helped a bit now. Still, till i find the third- if that is even possible, I still feel gimped in arena. It has been a considerable increase with 5 stacks because my rotation now is far less aimed. Most of the time just once or twice aimed in arena primarily consisting of steady to stack.

It just really sucks that the few remaining MM's must cross their fingers for gear with TS / SA build to finally regain a bit of mobility again. Feels like a mess.
Mm is a disgrace.
I like the concept of MM to be honest with you. Much better than the retarded vulnerability thing in legion. I like the way they are going with MM. it does need fixed a lot tho. I won’t play any other spec, I’ve played MM for a good 10 years and it’s not changing now. Lock and load needs more proc chance in my opinion, and I’d love to see the return of Killshot for MM only. They’re just so many little things that they could do to help MM. Are they going to? Maybe! But probably not this patch. It will happen eventually if every true marks hunter keeps !@#$%ing about it. I can’t wait for the day tho, counting it down boys.
Just revert to Legion. MM hunters were pretty much meta and in working order by Nighthold, with potent AoE and amazing single target priority target burst.

They revamped the spec for no reason whatsoever as Windburst if baselined allowed you to close any gap in vulnerability windows.

Marked shot did great burst and required no cast time which also made the spec strong for PvP and it gave MM strong burst aoe alongside trick shots to boot.
10/01/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Fongle
First of all, yes, obligatory acknowledgement that BM is easy and we have a ranged spec available. I mean, it's been nerfed in every patch so far this expac to the point that it's mid tier at best for PvE, and useless for high level PvP, but sure, it's sorta viable-ish.

Marksmanship spec on the other hand, has been completely broken since day 1, and there hasn't been a single mention of fixing it since BfA started. Marks is now the lowest used, and lowest dps class for Mythic +, and Mythic raiding, and is only just above Prot Warriors and Brewmaster for high level arena representation.

The problems with Marks spec goes beyond just a simple number tweak for talents and abilities too. When Lone Wolf was introduced, it gave Hunters the class fantasy of being a solo sniper, and the ability to compete without having to use a pet. Currently, it's so bad that unless it's a multi target fight, it's actually a dps loss to not be using a pet of some sort. As well as this, the utility of the class has been pruned successively to the point that it's nearly useless for solo PvE and world content, it has almost zero survivability or sustain.

Our rotation is extremely clunky at best, and our top performing Azerite power somehow makes it worse, and turns it into a 3 button class, Steadyx5, Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire. It has a single burst ability that's extremely underwhelming, and on a long cooldown, so is nearly useless on most Mythic+ runs.

The cast time of our top damaging ability is so slow I've had people run from the middle of Nagrand Arena to get around a pole before it managed to actually cast. Not to mention you can't move at all while using it, so you become a massive target trying to get off a cast. People are actually trying to make Marks PvP builds that completely ignore our strongest ability because of how useless it is.

Our best aoe talent has been broken since introduction too. Explosive shot bugs out constantly, glitches on terrain, throws out your whole rotation while you sit waiting for it to fly through the air, doesn't go off half the time, and any sort of world lag means actually landing it is nearly impossible unless you're at point blank range.

All of these issues have been getting reported, and angrily discussed every day over on the Hunter forums since beta as well, nothing has been changed, not a single blue post even acknowledging any of the multitudes of issues being talked about, and with this new patch, I thought there would finally be something being done about it, and yet nothing.

This is not good enough Blizz, and you need to fix it.


Class balance is a pretty big issue this xpac.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-bfa-1/all/us/leaderboards#role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99

Warriors and shaman combined have less representation than hunters, so there's a lot of issues. I'm curious if these issues have always been present, but they're worse, or more drastic, due to the communities increased use of analytics like IO statistics and wowlogs.

People get in their heads that a spec is worthless, so they don't play it. Min/maxers will take 1% extra damage, or more survivability overall, and so that funnels down to everyone. If you're not pushing those high keys, do you really care what the top end uses? You probably want to have the option, but those top end guys will just role a new character, or have 2-3 well geared alts to suit their needs.

I feel for you guys, and I wish Blizzard would figure out what's going over there.
Absolutely agree that the state of marksman needs to be addressed.

Not only quantitatively (look at various charts on raid logs[1] and rankings on radier.io[2]), but also qualitative perspective of dps, utility, from others and myself. Pets are currently bugged[3], and I've been berated, specifically: called "Trash", and asked why I would play Marksman in a Mythic 5. I would have been kicked if it weren't my own key.

My expectation isn't to top dps charts, it isn't even to be rank higher than any other dps class, but only to be equitable to the other hunter specs and hopefully the median of all dps classes.

I've played marksman since vanilla beta, and this might be the worst I've ever seen it.

[1] https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#metric=dps&class=DPS
[2] https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-bfa-1/all/us/leaderboards#role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99
[3] https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767668480
10/04/2018 11:53 AMPosted by Mykrode
> Joins arena
> Teammates head turns
> You know they're inspecting you
> They see MM

"WTF"

- silence -

"lets just /afk"

No joke. This happened to me last night.

decided to do a arena skirm, as marks, because hell, ive missed it. i end up getting stunned during an aim shot cast, los'd by the rogue bla bla bla, end up getting told by a bm hunter that i sucked lol.

Personally i think we need to dump precise shots from aim shot and just buff arcane shot damage so we have a reliable damage dealer on the go when we cant cast aim shot, and give us old explosive shot as a talent to replace aim shot
Here are some changes they need to do:

-Get rid of Volley on the talent tree, the way it is now it is Garbage RNG Talent that is worthless

-Move Barrage to that row to replace volley and reduce the range of the barrage by 30%, and reduce the width of it by 30% , that way it's a more focused/concentrated fire and reduces the risk of pulling other packs. Increase damage of Barrage. This way it should act almost like the demon hunters Eye Beam spell for hunters (very strong channeled aoe and single target spell)

-Make Volley a baselevel ability , but make volley act the same way it used to (the AoE circle like blizzard/rain of fire - video showing it, but obviously update the graphics to make it look like a literal rain of arrows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq87tbJ31J4 ) - *DO NOT MAKE IT CHANNELED*, make it act like Blizzard/rain of fire - drop it and move onto rotation. Give it a 45 second cooldown
Enemies hit by the volley should get a 4 second debuff , "Marked Target" - enemies with the debuff "Marked Target" , any aimed shots are instant cast on them and do not use up or require charges or energy. This would make it similar to the frozen orb/fingers of frost procs for frost mage

-Explosive shot, I never was a hunter back in it's glory days, but I've heard how awesome it was - however if blizzard is so set on it being a rocket vs the way it was, have it act like the rocket on the last boss of MOTHERLODE! Make it a slow moving rocket that auto locks on and doesn't glitch out on terrain , when it hits the target it detonates to all targets and damages all targets within 8 yds. This way it's a "shoot it, move onto other spells on rotation" so it's still useable even on single target, just like the barrage above would be as well .

-After casting steady shot, hunter should get a buff to reduce cast time of aimed shot by .5 seconds, up to 2x stacks (reducing down to 1.5 seconds), this buff lasts 15 seconds , refreshes after steady shot is cast again (so hunters would try and maintain this buff at all times)

These are just some spit ball ideas on how to make the spec have some fast/fun aoe, and make them competitive in PVP
i'm sitting at ilevel 344 (not super high, but with the time I have I'm pretty proud of it) with 2/3 azerite pieces giving me 'Steady Aim.'

I've picked talents that focus on the single-target sniper build as much as possible.

I've legit practiced in LFR and in the open world to really try and understand how to make MM work in its current form. Meaning, I'm not just trying to dps a lot, I'm trying to find the synergy in the system as it currently is. Looking for something that maybe I've missed as a player.

I leave War Mode on, and try and use what few tricks MM has to kite, trap, and otherwise survive melee classes that seem to have a lot more tricks to get out of what I can throw at them. I watch one--maybe 2 if I'm lucky--aimed shots hit like rubber bullets in pvp.

I haven't logged in for two weeks because the only class/spec I'm interested in just doesn't work and isn't fun.

At this point all I want is a dev to say literally anything about Marksman. Even if the message is, "We like it as is" or "We're not going to get to it until much later in the expansion" or "We're aware, just super swamped right now"... something so I can know where it stands.

If that doesn't happen soon, I'll be unsubbing--which is heart breaking. I've played since vanilla and have some fond memories and relationships from and in this game, but I don't have a lot of time to play as is, and I'd rather not pay for the product as is just get routinely ignored.
I decided to shelf my hunter once I played beta and realized MM would be going live as is. I don't play BM and I haven't played SV since it got turned into melee.

Props to Blizz for somehow making MM less fun than Legion.

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