I'm done with shield wearing tanks.

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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Dual-wield (or shield) classes are utterly screwed this expansion. As if the Azerite gear problems weren't enough.
Lore has chosen a position to cry about semantics rather than the effective reality of the situation where you have a small chance of getting loot from a boss with a shield or a a little less small chance at loot from a dungeon with a shield. Then you have a small chance to get the shield from a boss and a much smaller chance to get one from a dungeon.

It's not totally unique to shield wearers. Brewmaster shares a weapon with only itself, feral druid (lol) and survival Hunter which, in Uldir, is like throwing away a huge advantage since this is a terrible melee tier. Sin/sub rogue has the same problem being the only specs in the game to use agi daggers.
09/27/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Valkür
By the time BFA finishes people will come to realize that artifact weapons (and the offhands + shields they automatically gave you) was the best thing that ever happened to WoW game and class design.

Of course the artifact weapon system could have been improved (like AP gains shared between specs) but that doesn't mean you trash the whole system.


We should all go back to that big sword and get our weapons back. Because I agree, everything about Artifact Weapons and Legendaries was better than anything they've done with itemization in BFA.

I'd say we've taken a step backward, but it's more like we swan dived off a precipice into some rocks. I can't recall any item system as poorly designed as BFA Itemization in a AAA MMO, and I've played dozens of MMOs.
09/27/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Soulprison
Sorry for the cynicism, but I find this very hard to believe. This would lead one to believe they are the unluckiest person ever. The only reason I have raid gear is because I have been given it. In 2 weeks in Uldir I have looted 1 item and it wasnt an upgrade.
Random numbers are just that... random.
God the Artifact system was so amazing compared to what we have now
09/27/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Niraz
God the Artifact system was so amazing compared to what we have now


Bingo! What we have now is a giant flaming dumpster fire.
No way what Lore said is true. If that was the case, by now we would have seen 10, 15+ drops from a single boss on large groups and afaik that never happened.
09/27/2018 12:10 PMPosted by Ivanstone
Any form of weapon is going to be frustrating to obtain. This could've partially been avoided if Blizzard would make crafting more useful. WoD partially had it right. It wasn't perfect but you could re-roll stats and you could get gear that at least kept up with Heroic tier raids.

Currently as a smith I can make a Belt and Pants. Both have absurd material requirements and entirely random stats. They're both BOP, can not Warforge or gain tertiary stats. Neither are weapons as well.

As bad as this is, Azerite trait items are even worse. Admittedly, I've been lucky on the Shield front. First G'oon kill got me a Warforged shield to replace my Warforged M0 drop. Keeping armour with Deafening Crash though? That could be a problem. See my armoury for details.


As the individual above mentioned, for all of WoD's flaws, it actually had one of the best and more useful crafting systems. You could craft gear (or buy it from AH, or get someone to craft it for you) for any slot. You could also buy or make upgrades for the gear, multiple upgrades per tier to keep it relevant with normal/heroic/mythic gear. You could also buy or make items to reroll the properties. While this could sometimes take 1 or 100 tries to get the right stats, at least you had that option of trying. There was a fair limit of 3 pieces equip-able at once as well, so you had to pick and choose properly what you wanted to craft/buy and couldn't just buy a full set of gear (and wear it all at once) in a p2w sort of fashion. It kept crafting professions relevant. Unfortunately WoD destroyed gathering professions with the mine/herb garden, but that is a different topic.

Now it is back to a forced system of old, where Blizzard chooses a couple slots you can craft for, you can only upgrade those once per tier meaning they're only there to get you started, and not fill the long-term gaps in your RNG drops. Can't reroll the properties. Professions are largely stale and most people are going gathering, alchy (for flask duration) or enchanting to DE gear they get, since the scrapper is mostly useless.

About the OP's complaint. Yes it sucks, by week 2 of BfA my prot pally had full 330+ gear and a 280 green shield from questing. Luckily I have scored a couple shields (340-350) in m+ runs since, but I haven't seen a single one drop in raid yet.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Sorry, but aren't you wrong?

There is both an upper and lower limit on the amount of loot a boss can hand out.

Even if, by chance, all 28 people were to win this behind the scenes roll to receive loot. The system would not be giving everyone loot.

Likewise, it is impossible for a group of 28 loot eligible players to receive 0 loot from a boss kill.

Saying everyone has an individual chance. May be true.
Saying the number of people don't effect this. May also be true.

But saying that the number of people in a raid doesn't effect the chances of an individual getting loot... is just outright false from my experience.

Much like hunters and bows, the fact that it isn't even possible for a shield to drop from a boss without personally winning the roll if you are the only spec eligible for shields in the raid is pretty crazy. Unless you personally win the roll and a shield is chosen. You will not be seeing a shield drop in Uldir.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


So theoretically we should see one group where everyone gets loot?
09/27/2018 01:20 PMPosted by Smugjuggs
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
...

To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


So theoretically we should see one group where everyone gets loot?


This makes it seem like Loredoesn't play the same game as we do...
with master loot where boss drops 4 items from 11 possible with replacement

P(at least one of your item drops) = 1 - P(none of the drops are your item)

= 1 - (10/11)^4 = 1 - 0.68 = 0.32
09/27/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Valkür
By the time BFA finishes people will come to realize that artifact weapons (and the offhands + shields they automatically gave you) was the best thing that ever happened to WoW game and class design.

Of course the artifact weapon system could have been improved (like AP gains shared between specs) but that doesn't mean you trash the whole system.


Can we get a Legion server? I'd like to just play the last patch of Legion instead of this. Legion seemed polished at the end and they.. threw it away because? Reasons? Boredom?
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Not disputing this, but wanted to at least toss one thing into the conversation, the big problem with being a shield tank is lack of shield sources, which is what the OP was trying to convey. None of the WQ drop shields. This makes it really hard on shield wearers (and I would guess offhand wearers in general if they have the same problem). Basically once you get the 300 ilvl crafted shield(s) you are at the mercy of RNG and no WQ to help out with that.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Don't forget about the failsafe of people being able to potentially pass unwanted gear to him, you clod.
tfw lore actually doesnt know anything but keeps posting lmao
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.
That's not how the loot rules work. You know there's a bunch of hidden things going on. You guys act like 'personal loot is a principled decision to (fix?) equity in drops', but you hypocritically and intentionally obfuscate the loot rules.

I don't know why you guys do it, but at this point your rationale is clearly not to the benefit of your audience. It's just patronizing, and its a pervasive attitude from developer to CM. it's no wonder you guys can't go a week without becoming the center of a new reddit meme--I mean you're only a few hours since your first post today became a reddit trending mock-fest. It's surreal. And that's not intended to be a shot at you personally--it's literally every staff member that decides to wade into deeper waters than their favorite tea.

What's shocking is that you mockingly acknowledge the memes and how players feel about things like this, but you make no effort to change the condescending motivations that sometimes leak out from the company culture.

I suspect the vast majority of it is because if the loot rules were wholly transparent, they wouldn't hold up under player scrutiny--best to just keep them a mystery--but that's my deserved cynicism talking.

How hard is it to succinctly explain all the intentional programming choices you've made in the personal loot system? Someone did program it right? There is someone who knows why the choices are there and can point-form the rationales, as well as offer reasons why particular pain-points can't be remedied without XYZ being a predictable consequence?
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


I'll just add my experience:

The only time I've gotten loot in Uldir is when I was alive at the very end. Anytime I've had to be rezzed or make my way back to the boss, everyone who got loot already were the only ones who got loot.

Maybe it's just random how it's worked out that way - and I haven't talked with anyone else to see if that's their experience - but it's created a perception for me that there is indeed a limit on how many drops there can be from a given boss. Please note I've been very careful with my wording.

Is there something that can be done to alleviate this frustration ? Such as all loot going out for every eligible person once anyone loots the boss ?
09/27/2018 01:44 PMPosted by Warpdrive
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Don't forget about the failsafe of people being able to potentially pass unwanted gear to him, you clod.


Players: we want more communication from Blizzard.

Also players: I don't agree with what Blizzard said so I'm gonna call them names lol
---
Also, I see we've got to the point where people think artifacts were the best thing EVAR rather than crying about how everyone had the same weapon.

That was quicker than I expected.
? this isnt communication, it's blatantly lying about how a game system works

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