I'm done with shield wearing tanks.

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09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Then why have I never run into a situation where 10+ items drop on a 20 man raid on PL?

If everyone truly has their own individual chance then you would expect situations to arise where a group would be abnormally lucky and yet I’ve never actually witnessed it nor heard of that.

Since the change to force a minimum number of drops that was made back in HFC (I’m unsure if it’s been tweaked since then) it seems like the number of drops is related to group size with maybe an additional 1-2 items here or there.

Under the current system is there a hard cap on the number of drops or is it theoretically possible for all 20 players in a raid to each receive a (non-bonus roll) drop?

You seem to be suggesting the latter.
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
I've been tanking since vanilla on various tanks. While I've strayed from the warrior it's always held a special spot in my heart and have always returned to it. Unfortunately, with the change to forced personal loot, I've been able to get a total of 1 shield since hitting 120. After farming all the shield giving dungeons on mythic (plus some heroic clears) I got a 340. I've been doing Normal Uldir since week one and heroic since week 2. I also do a variety of M+ each week. I am still wearing that 340 shield.

I was wondering why my luck was so bad. Then (when putting my engineering mind to the task) I realized I wasn't having bad luck, that's just how this work now. My raid is roughly 28 people. The only shield wearing main specs are me and a holy paladin. Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.

My chances are slightly improved by having that holy paladin in the group, but he has to get one first and then a second to pass to me.

If I switch to a monk, that gives me 3 chances (2x monk tanks + a survival hunter). However if I switch to DK, that gives me 5 chances (1 unholy dk+2 ret pallies+1 fury warrior+1 blood dk). I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention that your raid/group composition directly impacts the odds of you getting specific loot items.


This... is not what I was expecting.

I was expecting legitimate complaints about tank balance, not bad math.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


He was saying his chance increased because of the paladin joining because it meant a shield could drop and be traded. Probably not at first due to item level upgrade restrictions, but after a couple more kills etc.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Nope that is false lmao
09/27/2018 02:31 PMPosted by Acaelus
I was expecting legitimate complaints about tank balance, not bad math.


Might be bad math, but the sentiment is there.

With master loot, a boss will drop gear from a table right? Could be a shield that drops, and the loot council hands out appropriately.

With personal loot a shield wearing tank has to depend on his own rng for a shield.

A mage for example will not get a shield to trade to him.

So a tank looking for a shield needs other pallys/warriors to win shields that will not be upgrades to help the tank out. The less pally/warrior in raid, then the less chance of a shield dropping for the raid overall.

That's how I interpret the situation anyway.
You know how you solve all this stuff? Give out gear tokens for when you fail to get loot (or even when you get it) and let people itemize as they see fit. Everybody wins (eventually).
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Wow, explains so much about this xpac. Lore doesnt even know how loot works. What is going on at blizzard?
"The only reason I have raid gear is because I have been given it".

Yup, RNG plays a bigger role in personal loot, as what drops is now determined by group comp. If you're the only person shields can drop for... GG. Stacking leather is quite powerful, lots of common gear to share. Less RNG to harm unlucky players, if we stack our raids for sharing.
09/27/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Mingz
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
...

To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Yet, I have seen raids of 25 people get just 6 drops per boss, not 4 or 5 or 8. It is a set limit for the raid, not everyone has a change to get a drop, just 6 people in a 25 man raid. So, no it is not personal otherwise you would have bosses sometimes drop maybe 15 pieces.
Thank you for calling this out, when you kill a boss, the game determines how many pieces of loot the boss will drop based on how many people are in the raid. The BLP section snforces the number of total drops per boss to Player_Count/5. So if you have 20 people you will get 4 drops per boss. If you have 21 you will get 4.2 drops per boss. In practice, 4.2 drops means that you will get your base 4 drops, plus an additional 20% chance at a 5th drop. The game will then randomly select the players to distribute loot to. Then the game rolls to see what loot each one of those individual players will receive based on their selected loot specialization.

There are ways to force to games hand, namely with bonus rolls, but those are independent of the loot that a boss will drop naturally which is ENTIRELY RESTRICTED TO A SET NUMBER BASED ON RAID SIZE like OP stated.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


This is just flat out wrong. It USED to work this way but was changed to select X players based on raid size. Straight from the 6.2 patch notes:

Rather than treating loot chances independently for each player—sometimes yielding only one or even zero items for a group—we’ll use a system similar to Group Loot to determine how many items a boss will award based on eligible group size. As a result, groups will receive a much more predictable number of drops when they defeat a boss. We're also increasing the overall rate of reward for Personal Loot, giving players more items overall to offset the fact that Personal Loot rewards can’t be distributed among group members.
On the one hand: Anyone else remember when it took weeks' worth of the easier bosses' drops to get the raid's collective ilvl up to take on harder ones? Instead of everyone expecting near-max ilvl 3 weeks in?

On the other hand: This is very true, and doubly so if you're trying to gear an off-spec while still looking for an item for your main spec. If a boss drops both a fist weapon and a shield? Looks like I can't try for the shield because I have to keep my spec as enhance to have a shot at the fist. If we're forced to use this system for everything current from now on, can we at least have a 'none'/'all specs' option for our loot specialization if we'd prefer the wider pool to the narrow focus?
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
...

To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


This is just flat out wrong. It USED to work this way but was changed to select X players based on raid size. Straight from the 6.2 patch notes:

[quote]Rather than treating loot chances independently for each player—sometimes yielding only one or even zero items for a group—we’ll use a system similar to Group Loot to determine how many items a boss will award based on eligible group size. As a result, groups will receive a much more predictable number of drops when they defeat a boss. We're also increasing the overall rate of reward for Personal Loot, giving players more items overall to offset the fact that Personal Loot rewards can’t be distributed among group members.


I don't have anything to add this other than that I'm generally upset.
09/27/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Uristä
I don't have anything to add this other than that I'm generally upset


You should be because this "everybody has an equal chance at loot" thing is simply not true and it was used as one of the primary justifications to ram forced personal loot down our throats.

This is what people meant all along when they worried about loot going to the "wrong" people and the people supporting the change would always counter back with "someone winning loot doesn't mean that loot was taken away from another player" when empirical evidence suggests the contrary.
09/27/2018 03:11 PMPosted by Grindrep
Thank you for calling this out, when you kill a boss, the game determines how many pieces of loot the boss will drop based on how many people are in the raid. The BLP section snforces the number of total drops per boss to Player_Count/5. So if you have 20 people you will get 4 drops per boss. If you have 21 you will get 4.2 drops per boss. In practice, 4.2 drops means that you will get your base 4 drops, plus an additional 20% chance at a 5th drop. The game will then randomly select the players to distribute loot to. Then the game rolls to see what loot each one of those individual players will receive based on their selected loot specialization.


Did they remove the buff they did to personal loot? if so, why? it used to drop the same number as masterloot+1(so for 20 it would guarantee 5 drops). It seems they just set it as you say, a fixed player_count/5.

More on topic, this was called out as a clear problem when they first announced forced personal loot. Hunters can have it just as bad, they can only trade with other hunters and mail users are also less in number(more so with shamans being less desirable, but that is beside the point).
911 this is Lore, what's your emergency

My house is on fire!

What's the address sir

123 Prot Warrior Street unit 107

Sir, sir, SIR. CALM DOWN SIR. You're going to be fine. You're technically in a detached condo, not a house. Thanks for calling.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there


Do you even play the game? Stop spreading misinformation.
Personal loot implies a level of incompetence in a non LFR raid environment by players. Never once when raiding in a PUG has loot been an issue with me. Never once in guild raids has master loot been an issue with me. Personal loot is a good option, but it shoudn't be the only option.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


Can you clarify this with some proof?
Reason I ask is that, I remember being informed previously that the number of loot drops was based on the the size of the group, before the RNG kicked in.
Wasn't it 2-3 pieces for a 10 man, then 20% chance increase for each person after?
EG:
11 = 2 drops + 20% chance on a 3rd drop
14 = 2 drops + 80% chance on a 3rd drop
17 = 3 drops + 40% chance on a 4th drop
And so on. Mythic had increased drop chance.
Now I know this was originally applied for Group and Master loot.
However, when personal loot was introduced, we was informed there would be no reduction on the amount of loot dropped per boss, and there may be an additional multiplier added to increase the total number of drops.
At the same time, the loot maximum number of drops would be capped.

I have a feeling the numbers and/or drop increase chances have been changed. But I'm pretty confident that the loot is capped, with possibly other factors affecting what drops.
We all know about the "Grubby Ring" scenario, which gives certain items a higher chance to drop than others to encourage the grind factor.

So, going back to the OP, I would conclude that shields have a lower % on the loot table as opposed to other items and then on top of that, the factors mentioned above come into affect.

Unless you would like to be transparent and disclose how all the loot works exactly?
"Illusion? What are you hiding?"
It's fascinating that Blizzard refuses to give a statement on certain things (such as the status of the 8.1 PTR build) because, supposedly, they might not have accurate info. But then... this.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there


Even in mythic+ we can stack the system by bringing multiple leather wearers into the run and pass loot around. I've given a rogue many pieces in our runs. The OP did talk about his chances based on having other shield-using people in the group who could, if they got a shield and already had one of equal or higher ilevel, pass it over.

We stack as often as we can in our runs, it really helps gear up the group as a whole instead of having people get gear they just scrap.

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