I'm done with shield wearing tanks.

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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09/28/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Chaosbug
We can actually see this play out in M+ very well, where personal loot has been effectively enforced since its inception. Groups that run with all leather or all plate are able to share gear more effectively, and can gear the entire group much faster than groups that run with a mix of gear.


But is that the incentive they are designing for? Do they want me to run with only warriors and paladins as my teammates because we can share gear? Seems to me they should encourage diversity.

Personal loot encourages stacking.

Group loot encourages diversity because if you have a stacked group you might get loot non of you can wear.
Can we get some sort of response how exactly personal loot works?

Based on that dev watercooler back in 6.2, it stated loot also drops based on number of eligible(unsaved?)people in raid.

Wowhead released an article not to long ago stating that each person after 10 has a 20% chance for extra loot to drop. Does that mean if raid size is 15, then people will have the independent loot chance + 1 guaranteed?

Its honestly so confusing you guys don't even keep some stuff updated and sticked, considering now that PL is the main go to. I'm a casual raider(school keeps me busy) and honestly I prefered ML due to how it works. Yes it has its downsides but I think its advantages are better.

Even if its not possible to go back, If its a guild raid give them the option to ML, shouldn't be that hard, you already have a check to see if its a guild group, just adding something like that would be nice.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


If its individual chance then how come there is ALWAYS a piece of gear dropped? Dont you think that by freak nature we'd experience 0 items from a boss? Statistically it would happen.
I feel your pain. Still sitting on the same 340 weapon I got from an emissary cache at the start of the expansion.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore

To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


You're wrong. You guys changed it at some point. I don't know who didn't tell you. Each boss gives X items dependent on the amount of people present.

That is not the mathematical equivalent of "individual chance to receive loot".
In FFXIV if the mainhand drops(granted the sword/shield combo is locked to just PLD in that game but..), the shield drops with it.

Wonder why blizzard hasn't thought of that yet.
This is about the stupidest logic I have ever seen. You make it seem like master loot allows you to control what drops. It doesn't. If the shield would have dropped in master loot world, it would have also dropped for you or your Holy Paladin. Master loot doesn't not allow you to control what items drop. It only allowed to you to control where the item went. Your best chance at a shield in master loot or personal loot is the bonus roll system. You have the exact same chance of the shield dropping in personal loot as you do in master loot. In your case, it isn't bad luck. It is that there are 2 people out of 25 that generate the chance for the shield to drop. If you had 25 people who used a shield, it would be far more likely to drop. Which is why you see rings drop so frequently. More players in the group can use it so its drop chance is increased. So in your response to the blue post, yes, your math is very wrong. You basis is completely unfounded.
09/28/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Sorelia
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore

To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


You're wrong. You guys changed it at some point. I don't know who didn't tell you. Each boss gives X items dependent on the amount of people present.

That is not the mathematical equivalent of "individual chance to receive loot".


He isn't wrong. He said, everyone has a CHANCE at loot. Nowhere does he say that a specific number of items drop. The number of items depends on the group size, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone has the exact same chance to get gear.
09/28/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Dragonyx
09/28/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Chaosbug
We can actually see this play out in M+ very well, where personal loot has been effectively enforced since its inception. Groups that run with all leather or all plate are able to share gear more effectively, and can gear the entire group much faster than groups that run with a mix of gear.


But is that the incentive they are designing for? Do they want me to run with only warriors and paladins as my teammates because we can share gear? Seems to me they should encourage diversity.

Personal loot encourages stacking.

Group loot encourages diversity because if you have a stacked group you might get loot non of you can wear.


You'll never get loot you can't wear. You may receive loot you don't need, but at no point will a group get loot that can't be used be a single group member. Do you even have the basic idea of how the loot system, Personal Loot or Master Loot works? Master loot would also encourage stacking. If I take 10 leather wearers into a raid with Master loot, I can then set everyone to DPS loot priority. Then all the gear that drops would be DPS gear. In fact, the loot drop in said group would be the exact same if the group were Master Loot or Personal Loot. The type of loot the group uses has absolutely no impact on what drops. It is all about the group size and loot specifications selected by the individual members.
As I said iny situation loot is rarely dropping but when it does tight now it's the loot I already have I can't get the loot I now need to drop and it's to a point where I'm starting to hold back the rest of the team. And like I also said the chance of getting the weapon I need is small sure to the fact that I use a weapon that very few specs use so I can't even really hope it will get traded to me in our raid which is close to 30 when doing heroic there are 2 feral 2 monks that can use the weapon I need but one of the monks is actually mistweaver so it won't drop for him and out hunters are not survival so the chance at weapons are really small for us. The fact that there are so few weapons in the game isn't helping either. Or maybe there's just so few of the weapon I need cause almost no spec use it.
09/27/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Trenchmouth

Wow, explains so much about this xpac. Lore doesnt even know how loot works. What is going on at blizzard?


^ This. I'm honestly wondering if something serious has changed on the WoW dev team this expansion, like did they fire half the staff and are trying to cover up that everyone else is scrambling?

BFA is the least polished expansion they have released to date, despite having one of the biggest marketing efforts. Almost every specialization was altered coming into BFA, half the specs were made worse for the changes - and another half a dozen of the specs are ~unplayable right now despite Alpha, Beta, and Live thus far: none of whom are receiving fixes in 8.1 it seems.

The itemization system is the worst they have made to date. The system which I want to call 'item = playstyle' (now Azerite items, formerly Legendaries) system is completely unbalanced and unenjoyable for everyone.

The quest and story and map teams all did a great job - but where are the systems designers and class designers?

Did they all leave for the unannounced Blizzard project already and we aren't being told because you think lying to your playerbase is better than being honest with bad news?

At this point it doesn't feel like a series of unconnected poor design choices, it feels like a systemic issue with the WoW dev team.
09/28/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Shamnan
09/28/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Dragonyx
...

But is that the incentive they are designing for? Do they want me to run with only warriors and paladins as my teammates because we can share gear? Seems to me they should encourage diversity.

Personal loot encourages stacking.

Group loot encourages diversity because if you have a stacked group you might get loot non of you can wear.


You'll never get loot you can't wear. You may receive loot you don't need, but at no point will a group get loot that can't be used be a single group member. Do you even have the basic idea of how the loot system, Personal Loot or Master Loot works? Master loot would also encourage stacking. If I take 10 leather wearers into a raid with Master loot, I can then set everyone to DPS loot priority. Then all the gear that drops would be DPS gear. In fact, the loot drop in said group would be the exact same if the group were Master Loot or Personal Loot. The type of loot the group uses has absolutely no impact on what drops. It is all about the group size and loot specifications selected by the individual members.


You clearly have no idea how ML works. If anything it encourages class diversity.
09/27/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Lore
09/27/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Dragonyx
Since it's personal loot, I have to be selected for loot (6 out of 28) on that one specific boss, and then I have to get the specific item out of the boss (1 out of 3) I believe. So my odds of getting a shield are 5%. The odds with master loot, assuming 4 drops instead of 6 would be 36% (11 drop options on the boss so (1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)+(1/11)). That's where my seemingly "bad luck" is coming from. I am 7 times less likely to get a shield in a raid with personal loot instead of group/master loot.


To be clear: that is not how personal loot works. Everyone in the raid has their own individual chance to receive loot, regardless of how many people are there.


So does this mean there are examples where (a) nobody got loot and (b) everybody got loot? Are you sure there's not a sliding range of the number loot drops or something?
Just to add to the general theme of the thread & provide a con for the current state of the PL system (I'm neither for or against, but there are issues):

A couple weeks ago I got a 'Rot-Scour Ring', from MOTHER normal. 355 i-lvl & good for my Boomy. The other day I got the same ring, this time it Warforged to 360 so I was unable to trade with it being 5 i-lvls better. That was a negligible gain for me, but could have been a significant upgrade for others in my raid group. It didn't sit well having to keep it.

I hope the dev team will at least discuss things like duplicate items that are negligible upgrades & i-lvl upgrades that are actually downgrades if stats are taken into account for certain specs.
While I agree that Personal Loot is not in the best interest of players, it's hard to argue against it when most of the arguments against are the very reasons why Blizzard wants it that way.

Does it make gearing a raid slower? Yes. Blizzard wants it to be slower. They want you to take longer to gear up. They want you to run the raid 5, 10 times as much as before. They WANT to lock you in to having to slog through everything so that they can put fewer resources into making new content, as players will be busy with current content for longer.

I think the points about Personal Loot encouraging raid stacking are a bit more useful in this case. Examples of entire 5mans of plate wearers or raids of leather wearers are more likely to provoke some sort of change than "it takes so much longer for us to get geared up" because, at the end of the day, Blizzard will just say, "Yup. That's the idea."
09/28/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Sungamnori
While I agree that Personal Loot is not in the best interest of players, it's hard to argue against it when most of the arguments against are the very reasons why Blizzard wants it that way.

Does it make gearing a raid slower? Yes. Blizzard wants it to be slower. They want you to take longer to gear up. They want you to run the raid 5, 10 times as much as before. They WANT to lock you in to having to slog through everything so that they can put fewer resources into making new content, as players will be busy with current content for longer.


I think the design philosophy of Blizzard became a punitive retention scheme for showcasing metrics to investors rather than what is actually fun and quality for players themselves. It's about dollars and the bottom line. This isn't the gaming company we grew up with. It's a big corporate culture and Ion the Lawyer is the perfect public face for this sort of operation.
LMFAO, this thread is amazing. When is Blizzard going to start listening to players rather than defending the biggest blunder in WoW design history? Is Ion that prideful? Can he not admit when he's wrong? I can only assume his job must be on the line, which is why he's willing to die on the sword for this.

Personal loot was a terrible idea for guild raids before, and it is now. Giving BFA time to run its course changed nothing. Absolutely nothing Blizzard says will change that. The math supports the players, their experiences support their case, and the way Blizzard is handling this is nothing short of an embarrassment.
09/28/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Elreek
If the shield would have dropped in master loot world, it would have also dropped for you or your Holy Paladin.


Not necessarily. Let's take, for example, a 30-man raid. This raid has only two shield users (a holy paladin and a prot warrior). They kill Vectis, which has a total of 11 items on his loot table, one of which is a shield.

Under a master loot scenario, the boss drops 30 * 0.2 = 6 items. Those 6 items are rolled on the overall table, and each one has a 1/11 chance of being a shield. Thus there's a 1 - (1 - 1/11)^6 = 43.6% chance of at least one of those 6 drops being a shield, and a 9.7% chance of 2 or more being a shield. Thus each of them has an effective cumulative chance of getting a shield from that boss kill of nearly exactly 25% (which includes both the 9.7% chance of both being able to get a shield, and then the remaining 33.87% chance of exactly 1 shield dropping, in which case each of them has a 50% chance of getting it, assuming a /roll off).

Under a personal loot scenario, the boss drops 30 * 0.3 = 9 items. Those 9 items are divvied up amongst the raiders randomly, so each of these two has a 9/30 chance (exactly 30%, as expected) of being selected to receive loot. If selected for loot, the game then rolls for which of the 4 items on each one's loot table that receive. Net chance of getting a shield off the boss, for each one, is 0.3 * 0.25 = 7.5%, which is exactly 30% as high as it was under Master Loot. In other words, they'd need to, on average, kill the boss 3.33 times to have each received the same average number of shields as a single kill on ML.

The problem is that on ML, each item is rolled from the boss's whole loot table. On PL, no person can get more than 1 drop, and each drop is rolled from that person's loot table. The net result is that ML is substantially more beneficial for classes and items that have lower representation or usage, weapons being a common category for this. Under ML, your chances at getting the item you want are based on the number of people in the raid, what proportion of them need the item in question, and how many different items the boss can drop. Under PL, excepting trading items, your chances of any specific item are based solely on the number of items on your individual spec's loot table for that boss.

Is that better? In some situations. Take rings for example. If a particular ring is an upgrade for every single person in the raid, and the boss can drop 4 spec-specific items for each person, then they each have a 7.5% chance of getting that ring, for a total average rings of 30 * 0.075 = 2.25 per kill under PL. Under ML, the average ring drops is 0.545 as above. So for commonly used items (jewelry, common weapon types, common armor if your raid has a lot), PL is better. The rule of thumb on that is that if more than about a quarter of your raid can use the item, you're getting more of them, on average, from PL than ML (percentage fluctuates a bit depending on the average size of the spec-specific loot table and the number of items on the overall loot table).
Ion let it leak out in a question answer session that weapons are more rare than other drops in the loot system. Confirmed that the frustration a lot of dual wielding players are feeling is working as intended.
09/28/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Madocx
Personal loot was a terrible idea for guild raids before, and it is now.


Personal loot existing isn't an issue for me. It's the forced part that's the issue. We used it all the time last expansion for our guild alt runs where we didn't want to deal with passing out loot. But for your main characters it's a different thing all together.

Anything that removes agency from the player, in a game that's all about making your character more powerful, is a detraction in my opinion.
-Master loot/group loot allowed you to tailor your characters and raid. Yes there was some RNG because the boss didn't always drop the item you wanted but a 30% chance for any item to drop instead of a 5% is a massive difference.
-Tier bonuses went from improving directly or triggering on a spell, to randomly happening.
-Trinkets went from procing from specific abilities or exact internal cooldowns to randomly happening
-Almost all traits on azerite gear are random procs with no way of controlling it.
-Legendaries could not be targeted in any way in Legion
-Refusing to disclose numbers behind safety systems or procs

All of these things lead to less control over your character. It's not happening randomly. It's clear they are purposefully trying to reduce the gap between knowledgeable players who SIM and do extensive research, and those that just play blindly. But they're not doing it by bringing people up and trying to teach people to play better, they're doing it by obfuscating the information for those who are thirsty to math it all out.

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