BFA Systems Hurt Guilds Sense of Community - A Mythic Raiding Guild Master's Perspective

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10/02/2018 03:03 AMPosted by Nyhlia
Yes, thus the point. If you're intentionally excluding people because you're salty about loot they are getting that doesn't impact you at all and you have spots that you used to fill with these people (as per the OP) but now refuse to...if you'd rather leave those spots unfilled... well ... then that says a lot of very not pleasant things about you as a person and absolutely nothing about whether the loot system is good or bad. But thanks for clarifying for us!


Wrong. If the loot that drops is good, typically you would want it for one of your team members. We would go into Heroic and guildies would ask us if they could tag along for the AotC which rewarded the exclusive mount that's no longer available. In return if there was any gear that dropped that was good for teammates we would give it to them. And if not, then we see if our carry can use it and pass it to them.

And when we're doing our AotC sale for people outside of the guild, we usually bring players in on the final boss unless requested that we do a full or partial clear.

If we have a raid team that's willing to carry a guild member to get a free AotC and a possible exclusive mount that disappears upon the next tier coming out and they get mad about loot, then they're ungrateful.
10/01/2018 06:57 PMPosted by Zeusgodofsky
10/01/2018 06:55 PMPosted by Jalen
...

Says yet another LFR raider. It's really sad that the people advocating for this change don't realize this.
Stop crying.


Your one liners feel really shallow and just push the idea that all you are trying to do is troll and get reactions out of people.

Try adding something to the conversation and people will probably have a better opinion of you, even if you disagree, because atm you just seem like a trolling dbag.
10/02/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Alcaris
Your fostering an us and them attitude and that will always cause a schism.


But at the same time, he is saying it never did cause a schism... but now that it's gone it is, but it's because they use ML... Which isn't even available.

This argument makes no sense.

How does having something removed, then seeing negative consequences prove that removing it was a positive? it's literally a double negative you are arguing as a positive...
10/02/2018 08:36 AMPosted by Hipzop
But at the same time, he is saying it never did cause a schism... but now that it's gone it is, but it's because they use ML... Which isn't even available.
I assure you it did whether he was aware of it or not. How many times do you think someone is going to give up that sweet piece of new gear before they start feeling resentful? No one but the most casual of casuals would be ok with that.
Before master loot he could tell himself and the guild that he was doing something altruistic by letting people "see content" and get mounts or gear that he deemed worthless. Now that PL is enforced he can no longer hide his true intentions and priorities, meaning gearing his progression raiders is the single most important motivation for raiding at any level, and all else must be sacrificed to meet that goal even the fun and satisfaction of non core raiders. Pl didn't cause the problem, it just made the underlying motivations impossible for OP to hide.
10/02/2018 08:22 AMPosted by Jalen
Wrong. If the loot that drops is good, typically you would want it for one of your team members. We would go into Heroic and guildies would ask us if they could tag along for the AotC which rewarded the exclusive mount that's no longer available. In return if there was any gear that dropped that was good for teammates we would give it to them. And if not, then we see if our carry can use it and pass it to them.

And when we're doing our AotC sale for people outside of the guild, we usually bring players in on the final boss unless requested that we do a full or partial clear.

If we have a raid team that's willing to carry a guild member to get a free AotC and a possible exclusive mount that disappears upon the next tier coming out and they get mad about loot, then they're ungrateful.


You say 'wrong' and then write a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the points I made at all. Maybe you can, I dunno, come up with something other than 'wrong' because regurgitating your fallacious emotional appeals about who deserves loot isn't actually an argument against objective reality. In objective reality, person A (undeserving in your eyes) not attending the raid doesn't change the fact that person B (deserving in your eyes) didn't get loot. No matter how many times or ways you try to say it has an impact it doesn't. That's simply not how loot works anymore.
10/02/2018 08:22 AMPosted by Jalen
10/02/2018 03:03 AMPosted by Nyhlia
Yes, thus the point. If you're intentionally excluding people because you're salty about loot they are getting that doesn't impact you at all and you have spots that you used to fill with these people (as per the OP) but now refuse to...if you'd rather leave those spots unfilled... well ... then that says a lot of very not pleasant things about you as a person and absolutely nothing about whether the loot system is good or bad. But thanks for clarifying for us!


Wrong. If the loot that drops is good, typically you would want it for one of your team members. We would go into Heroic and guildies would ask us if they could tag along for the AotC which rewarded the exclusive mount that's no longer available. In return if there was any gear that dropped that was good for teammates we would give it to them. And if not, then we see if our carry can use it and pass it to them.

And when we're doing our AotC sale for people outside of the guild, we usually bring players in on the final boss unless requested that we do a full or partial clear.

If we have a raid team that's willing to carry a guild member to get a free AotC and a possible exclusive mount that disappears upon the next tier coming out and they get mad about loot, then they're ungrateful.


This mentality is exactly why I don't raid anymore.

"You will take what we give you and you will LIKE IT."

Alternatively:

"We will only carry you if you have value to us, even if you're in the guild. We don't care about you, we just care about the potential loot your presence may generate for the core raiding team."
10/02/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Alcaris
10/02/2018 08:36 AMPosted by Hipzop
But at the same time, he is saying it never did cause a schism... but now that it's gone it is, but it's because they use ML... Which isn't even available.
I assure you it did whether he was aware of it or not. How many times do you think someone is going to give up that sweet piece of new gear before they start feeling resentful? No one but the most casual of casuals would be ok with that.
Before master loot he could tell himself and the guild that he was doing something altruistic by letting people "see content" and get mounts or gear that he deemed worthless. Now that PL is enforced he can no longer hide his true intentions and priorities, meaning gearing his progression raiders is the single most important motivation for raiding at any level, and all else must be sacrificed to meet that goal even the fun and satisfaction of non core raiders. Pl didn't cause the problem, it just made the underlying motivations impossible for OP to hide.


Hi friend,

That's a pretty toxic post you got here and you're certainly misconstruing literally everything.

The hundreds of guild members that we have had over the last 10 years would say otherwise.

Let me be super clear - no guild is under any obligation to do anything for anyone. We make decisions and agreements together, as a team, with goals in mind. Our goal being mythic raiding as #1 priority. We have to min/max everything in order to achieve those goals. Secondarily we keep socializing as a #2 priority and maintain a guild full of casuals who we do not NEED to have but WANT to have, as friends, family members, and people.

We are here telling you very explicitly that the system now is forcing us WANTing to have these people here HURTING us having them here. We now have no way to maintain both goals without hurting the other.

TEN YEARS of players being in the guild under these loot rules carries much more clout of success than someone commenting on a WoW forum post with such malignant toxicity.

I'm here, asking blizzard to put something in the game to PREVENT the selfish BEHAVIOR I am seeing form based on the removal of choice and systemic changes that were implemented.

I fully agree what is happening now is selfish.

These are the two choices:

Put ML back in and allow us to bring non raid members to raid without the fear of gear/mounts going to players who did not contribute to the hundreds of hours put in to kill those bosses.

OR

Keep PL and force guilds to decide whether or not they want to actively HURT their chances of performing on the world/US/Famed Slayer levels by bringing in people who have the chance of taking gear/tools/mounts away from the raid team.

Unfortunately in a mythic raid guild it's a fact that the mythic raid comes first. It's in the title, it's in the goal, it's communicated to everyone. We only want ML back in Guild Group runs, not in Pugs. We do not take Pugs.

Hopefully you take some time to read these posts thoroughly and advance the conversation, until then, I will no longer reply to you.
10/02/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Alcaris
I assure you it did whether he was aware of it or not. How many times do you think someone is going to give up that sweet piece of new gear before they start feeling resentful? No one but the most casual of casuals would be ok with that.
Before master loot he could tell himself and the guild that he was doing something altruistic by letting people "see content" and get mounts or gear that he deemed worthless. Now that PL is enforced he can no longer hide his true intentions and priorities, meaning gearing his progression raiders is the single most important motivation for raiding at any level, and all else must be sacrificed to meet that goal even the fun and satisfaction of non core raiders. Pl didn't cause the problem, it just made the underlying motivations impossible for OP to hide.


The difference is the status quo has changed. People didn't actually have a voice in the matter. They accepted the terms given to them by their guild and that was it. The problem is that those casual/socials/trials participated in the kills and wanted upgrades too but they set those desires aside because they didn't have the any power over how loot was distributed. They were content, for the most part, getting loot if and only if the people managing ML deemed it something that wasn't needed by everyone else. The tables have now turned, intentionally, entirely by design, by the developers themselves. They turned the loot paradigm inside out. Now instead of self appointed dictators, whether in the form of loot councils or a single person who managed loot, now the individuals who participated have the power. And the people who used to manage or be advantaged by the way loot was done can no longer lord control over the issue over everyone who participates in the kills. And it's a great thing.
10/02/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Nyhlia
10/02/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Alcaris
I assure you it did whether he was aware of it or not. How many times do you think someone is going to give up that sweet piece of new gear before they start feeling resentful? No one but the most casual of casuals would be ok with that.
Before master loot he could tell himself and the guild that he was doing something altruistic by letting people "see content" and get mounts or gear that he deemed worthless. Now that PL is enforced he can no longer hide his true intentions and priorities, meaning gearing his progression raiders is the single most important motivation for raiding at any level, and all else must be sacrificed to meet that goal even the fun and satisfaction of non core raiders. Pl didn't cause the problem, it just made the underlying motivations impossible for OP to hide.


The difference is the status quo has changed. People didn't actually have a voice in the matter. They accepted the terms given to them by their guild and that was it. The problem is that those casual/socials/trials participated in the kills and wanted upgrades too but they set those desires aside because they didn't have the any power over how loot was distributed. They were content, for the most part, getting loot if and only if the people managing ML deemed it something that wasn't needed by everyone else. The tables have now turned, intentionally, entirely by design, by the developers themselves. They turned the loot paradigm inside out. Now instead of self appointed dictators, whether in the form of loot councils or a single person who managed loot, now the individuals who participated have the power. And the people who used to manage or be advantaged by the way loot was done can no longer lord control over the issue over everyone who participates in the kills. And it's a great thing.


Trials got gear in all raids, firstly.

Secondly, casuals and and socials did not participate in any kills. In all instances being discussed they are brought to farm kills, optionally. They do not need or have to be brought as there are no attendance issues requiring their presence to kill content.

We brought them prior to loot rules expanding the amount of drops per boss based on raid size. We brought them because we had the tools and skill to bring other people to raid regardless of their performance on the boss. Many guilds cannot down these bosses with their teams, let alone players who are drastically under skilled or don't have the time required to do so in the first place.
10/01/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Wsedfgghj
our raid team has become hyper sensitive in bringing in any player outside of our mythic roster for fear that the push loot will go to them.


So, the following is a question and not an attack so if you can enlighten me, please do so.

How do casuals take gear away from your guild on personal loot? Are bosses set to fixed number of loot drops? (aka 15 man gets 3 items per boss that is distributed through RNG).

I was under the impression that sometimes a raid gets a bunch of loot and sometimes they don't.
10/02/2018 09:03 AMPosted by Wsedfgghj
Trials got gear in all raids, firstly.


Except I can tell you that's not true. Maybe your guild handled loot that way. I'm my time playing I've seen loot handed to alts over trials plenty of times in guilds when I wasn't in leadership.

10/02/2018 09:03 AMPosted by Wsedfgghj
Secondly, casuals and and socials did not participate in any kills. In all instances being discussed they are brought to farm kills, optionally. They do not need or have to be brought as there are no attendance issues requiring their presence to kill content.

We brought them prior to loot rules expanding the amount of drops per boss based on raid size. We brought them because we had the tools and skill to bring other people to raid regardless of their performance on the boss. Many guilds cannot down these bosses with their teams, let alone players who are drastically under skilled or don't have the time required to do so in the first place.


And before you had a choice when loot dropped. You had a set amount of loot per boss based on a myriad of factors pending difficulty. And you awarded that loot out. It no longer functions that way. If you have an empty spot in a mythic farm, filling that spot with a casual or social or trial has zero bearing on the outcome of loot gained by other players. None. It doesn't help. It doesn't harm. Each person has their own independent chance to win loot and it's entirely irrelevant who else is there or what loot other people win.

Again, as I've said a number of times before, as has been stated by blues a number of times, as has been said by others in this thread, if you have an empty spot or spots the idea that you're harming your raid by bringing someone to fill them is entirely in your head. It's not based on how loot is actually distributed now. It's all you being salty about them getting loot that has no real bearing on whether or not other players get loot or don't get loot.
I came back about 4 months before the end of Legion on the Connected-Shadowmoon grouping. In those 4 months, Gen chat would constantly have someone from Afro Ninjas bad mouthing everyone else all the time. The community on CS was rough enough as it was without that.

If my last few months of experience prior to transferring to Sarg was what you consider inclusive, fun community, then good lord it must be awful now.
10/02/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Pänic
10/01/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Wsedfgghj
our raid team has become hyper sensitive in bringing in any player outside of our mythic roster for fear that the push loot will go to them.


So, the following is a question and not an attack so if you can enlighten me, please do so.

How do casuals take gear away from your guild on personal loot? Are bosses set to fixed number of loot drops? (aka 15 man gets 3 items per boss that is distributed through RNG).

I was under the impression that sometimes a raid gets a bunch of loot and sometimes they don't.

Correct impression. PL is not a set amount of loot that is randomly distributed. Each player has their own individual chance. Bringing along an extra "casual" has absolutely zero effect on their "core".
10/02/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Khalamete
Correct impression. PL is not a set amount of loot that is randomly distributed. Each player has their own individual chance. Bringing along an extra "casual" has absolutely zero effect on their "core".


Thanks for clarifying that. I saw a couple posts like this and it made me scratch my head, thinking that something changed.
Perhaps it's me but master loot always caused issues in recruiting. Why would a new raid member bother joining a raid guild team that's going to insure your the last to be given loot? It's a question many casuals, now myself as a casual raider, asked and railed against.

Mythic raiding has its niche and should be the only teir to have ML if they ever implemented it's back in. I feel many of us fell out of high teir raiding because of that awful master loot system and I might try a new guild because PL has gotten me geared super quick from pugs.

TLDR ML was an elitist system to funnel gear and only belongs in mythic difficulty raids if at all to encourage casual and mid teir raiding. IE pugs.
10/02/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Pänic
10/02/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Khalamete
Correct impression. PL is not a set amount of loot that is randomly distributed. Each player has their own individual chance. Bringing along an extra "casual" has absolutely zero effect on their "core".

Thanks for clarifying that. I saw a couple posts like this and it made me scratch my head, thinking that something changed.

Giving faux "leaders" some power over others, and then taking that power away, tends to result in a lot of salt. Casuals and trials don't take away from their core group. They're just upset that they can no longer funnel gear towards people they deem worthy.
ML and Loot council I'm all for

The ML system protected the guild against the trial member who says they want to raid, comes for one clear gets some loot then vanishes.
The first guild in Legion I was apart of was personal loot who went ML because of trials. We imposed a 2 week trial period where the person got no loot for that time because we didn't want them taking from someone who has been raiding for 4 months then leaves after a week. We didn't funnel gear to the best players, the loot master would put the item up for everyone except for the 2 week trial to roll on.

The solution I have for people complaining that they dont get loot because of ML is join a guild who does personal. Or a guild like the one I was in, ML but only the members get to roll and you wait your trial period out. It was a fair system, and frankly I hate getting loot that I can't trade. The 5 ilvl "upgrade" the game is forcing me to keep could be a 40 ilvl upgrade for someone else.
10/02/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Wsedfgghj
10/02/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Alcaris
...I assure you it did whether he was aware of it or not. How many times do you think someone is going to give up that sweet piece of new gear before they start feeling resentful? No one but the most casual of casuals would be ok with that.
Before master loot he could tell himself and the guild that he was doing something altruistic by letting people "see content" and get mounts or gear that he deemed worthless. Now that PL is enforced he can no longer hide his true intentions and priorities, meaning gearing his progression raiders is the single most important motivation for raiding at any level, and all else must be sacrificed to meet that goal even the fun and satisfaction of non core raiders. Pl didn't cause the problem, it just made the underlying motivations impossible for OP to hide.


Hi friend,

That's a pretty toxic post you got here and you're certainly misconstruing literally everything.

The hundreds of guild members that we have had over the last 10 years would say otherwise.

Let me be super clear - no guild is under any obligation to do anything for anyone. We make decisions and agreements together, as a team, with goals in mind. Our goal being mythic raiding as #1 priority. We have to min/max everything in order to achieve those goals. Secondarily we keep socializing as a #2 priority and maintain a guild full of casuals who we do not NEED to have but WANT to have, as friends, family members, and people.

We are here telling you very explicitly that the system now is forcing us WANTing to have these people here HURTING us having them here. We now have no way to maintain both goals without hurting the other.

TEN YEARS of players being in the guild under these loot rules carries much more clout of success than someone commenting on a WoW forum post with such malignant toxicity.

I'm here, asking blizzard to put something in the game to PREVENT the selfish BEHAVIOR I am seeing form based on the removal of choice and systemic changes that were implemented.

I fully agree what is happening now is selfish.

These are the two choices:

Put ML back in and allow us to bring non raid members to raid without the fear of gear/mounts going to players who did not contribute to the hundreds of hours put in to kill those bosses.

OR

Keep PL and force guilds to decide whether or not they want to actively HURT their chances of performing on the world/US/Famed Slayer levels by bringing in people who have the chance of taking gear/tools/mounts away from the raid team.

Unfortunately in a mythic raid guild it's a fact that the mythic raid comes first. It's in the title, it's in the goal, it's communicated to everyone. We only want ML back in Guild Group runs, not in Pugs. We do not take Pugs.

Hopefully you take some time to read these posts thoroughly and advance the conversation, until then, I will no longer reply to you.
Nothing toxic just an honest assessment of what's happening. The fact that you think it's "toxic" would tell me you've got a bit of guilt going on though. If you want to focus solely on mythic raiding cool, go for it man, nothing wrong with that at all. The issue is your blaming PL for exposing your motivations. If you were really concerned about the guild as a whole and not just your core raiders, PL in farm content would mean nothing to you. Fact of the matter is it means a lot to you because mythic progression is your main priority and again nothing wrong with that but now you have to choose.

10/02/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Wsedfgghj
We are here telling you very explicitly that the system now is forcing us WANTing to have these people here HURTING us having them here. We now have no way to maintain both goals without hurting the other.
This is completely false. This is a constraint you have convinced yourself is there. It never hurt you before because you could take gear from people. Now you can't so your underlying motivations are forcing you to face what your priorities truly are. Pl may be the motivating factor, but it's your lack of motivation to reconcile the casual and the hardcore that is creating your issue, not the existence of PL.
You just don't like it because now your motivations are laid bare, and you don't like what it's going to do to your image if you start excluding people, it's now clear to everyone in your guild that progression raiding >>> casual friends and family and that makes you look like the quintessential elitist jerk.
ML helped you gear out your core while progressing. Why on earth this would matter on farm content is beyond me. You already out gear it. In my previous mythic guild in legion we brought casuals to farm content as well, but we set it to PL on farm content becasue on average more players got loot and since it was on farm, we weren't looking to specifically gear anyone.

Not to mention your idea of how loot works in raids is completely wrong.
10/02/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Gholdiirn
ML helped you gear out your core while progressing. Why on earth this would matter on farm content is beyond me. You already out gear it. In my previous mythic guild in legion we brought casuals to farm content as well, but we set it to PL on farm content becasue on average more players got loot and since it was on farm, we weren't looking to specifically gear anyone.

Not to mention your idea of how loot works in raids is completely wrong.


Farm content means you can just easily down the boss. We have two mother kills, but it's considered farm content at this point, yet many still need gear from it. On top of that, TF is a thing (a stupid thing, but nevertheless...still a thing).

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