BFA Systems Hurt Guilds Sense of Community - A Mythic Raiding Guild Master's Perspective

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10/01/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Wsedfgghj
Background info/TLDR is at the bottom as I don't want it to seem like this post is a self-promotion for our guild.

Hi my name is Wsedfgghj and I have played this game pretty consistently since 2006 with only a break in MOP. I have led casual guilds, Hero rBG teams, and most recently a Mythic raiding guild consistently getting Cutting Edge every tier from the start of Legion. In all my time playing this game at various levels I have never felt like the game structure itself was a negative on my guild as much as I do right now.

As a Guild Master the new systems BFA introduced have brought the community aspect of our guild to a total standstill. The sense of community feels gone or even at odds to the raiding environment and the culture that has been established over 10 years of playing together.

Guild structure in BFA has created many negative behaviors that I don’t think are unique to our guild. The BFA system changes like Master Looter/Loot Distribution, WarMode Phasing, and Azerite have caused unintended stress to our guild environment.

Master Looter as a whole allowed mid-tier guilds like my own enabled us to protect gear and bring casuals to our raids without fear of them taking gear that benefits our end goal. Enhancing our stronger players, our mythic raid team, which then in turn allowed them to carry our less skilled players through M+ and raiding. This new system without Master Looter has caused a few dramatic changes to this dynamic. Instead of being able to bring in casuals, regardless of skill, our raid team has become hyper sensitive in bringing in any player outside of our mythic roster for fear that the push loot will go to them. When competing at our level, every piece of gear matters to a boss kill while pushing for Famed Slayer titles.

Consequently our social members no longer feel included, with the semi-understanding that they would be taking loot from content they neither have the time nor ability to see otherwise. This trend is exacerbated by our players not being able to maintain a certain item level due to push loot and azerite forcing them to do more M+ to maintain item levels at the level we need to compete. Rather than our players being able to organize their time to help our casuals and social members do their weekly keys, they instead are forced to play with only raiders to help further distribute gear. Now instead of taking our outside of raid roster players to Heroic, Normal, Mythic, or Mythic + we feel like bringing them to any of this content actively HURTS our ability to raid. Many of us work full time jobs and the time we dedicate to the game is limited, so using more time to do more keys and more content with our non-raid roster isn’t really an option.

Azerite is forcing my players to keep gear for different bosses, different specs, aoe v. Single target instead of trading down the same piece of gear or handing that gear to a trial. If one player gets the same piece twice and I know they will be there across the board for every fight vs. a brand new player who may not be performing (possibly due to gear?) I cannot justify trading that item if the second azerite piece will be used on the following boss. Mythic + not dropping azerite makes farming keys feel significantly less impactful. Where in legion I could do 10 keys and get a much higher value than now making my time spent now so much less valuable than Legion.

While I understand that keeping us playing the game is an intended feature of the game, this is a short term gain for a long term decline. I can assure you, from analyzing player trends over the last 10 years and knowing many of my players and officers for just as long - the burnout is coming. We all slogged through Legion burn out and many of our players didn’t show the signs they are showing now. The feeling of apathy, the behavioral changes caused by these systems has fragmented the guild community-feel. Removing master looter, azerite, and WarMode Phasing has pushed our players to be afraid to include the rest of the guild in activities. The dynamic has changed from an inclusive fun community to exclusive and protective. Overall, our number 1 goal is mythic raiding in a social community of internet friends and family. The systems in place make our guilds goals completely opposed to one another.

The solutions I would offer start with reinstating Master Looter in Guild only Groups. This will still give flexibility to pugs having push loot without damaging your guilds who intend to raid together and want freedom of choice.

WarMode Phasing ultimately should allow players who join a group to phase into each other or be able to see their same guild mates in major cities. Our players should not be punished and lose the sense of community we get from seeing each other run around Stormwind or Boralus over enabling PVP.

Azerite pieces dropping from M+ will allow us to more quickly bring our players up to speed and make Mythic + feel rewarding again.

The systems overall seem to promote selfishness, that we as players cannot regulate ourselves or our communities. Instead of the systems being tools for us to leverage, they are pushing our communities farther apart for a burst of playing time now and a total stoppage of playing time in the future. I can guarantee that if these systems are not fixed, without a sense of reward and community, our playing time will turn off.

Some Info About Us: We are <Afro Ninjas> A guild formed in 2007 with the goal of fostering a community that pushes Players over Pixels. We look to gain CE and Famed Slayer titles while doing so with our friends. The sense of community, friendship, e-family, and support systems we have provided to each other over a decade is paramount to our in game success. The BFA systems have crushed our mindset into feeling like bringing in outside of raid-roster players hurts our ability to progress by taking gear away from our raiders or trials.
anyone see the irony of them upset with no master loot with a guild name called afro Ninjas?
10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
As someone who pugs I like the changes.

In many runs i've seen in the RL give drops to their bad teammates who screwed up the raid multiple times instead of giving it to those who actually deserved after doing their job correctly.

In many runs I've seen RL calling for a roll only to give it to their buddies regardless of who rolled higher, in fact I've 'won' a roll before only to have someone who didn't even roll keep the item on more than one occasion.

The former system was abused and I'm glad it's gone.


If it was that much of a problem then it should have been removed on lower difficulties. Or, people should have entertained the Group Finder. Where Forced PL already existed
10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
In many runs I've seen RL calling for a roll only to give it to their buddies regardless of who rolled higher, in fact I've 'won' a roll before only to have someone who didn't even roll keep the item on more than one occasion


Out of curiosity ... let's say a helmet upgrade drops on the next run you're on but they only let people who are friends with the raid lead roll on it and you're told you're not allowed to roll. How would you feel in that situation? Would you feel like that was "fair" or would you still be upset that someone thought you were unworthy of loot and gave it to someone else?

Having forced personal loot doesn't stop that from happening in runs where that would have happened anyway.

Master Loot was unavailable in pugs anyway so that situation you're referring to hasn't been possible for many years.

This didn't solve any problems and just created more headaches for officers and raid leaders.
10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
As someone who pugs I like the changes.

In many runs i've seen in the RL give drops to their bad teammates who screwed up the raid multiple times instead of giving it to those who actually deserved after doing their job correctly.

In many runs I've seen RL calling for a roll only to give it to their buddies regardless of who rolled higher, in fact I've 'won' a roll before only to have someone who didn't even roll keep the item on more than one occasion.

The former system was abused and I'm glad it's gone.


You were pugging, in legion pugs were forced PL unless it was almost exclusively a guild run. ML is for organzied guilds, you arent a part of that world, you can have forced PL in your pugs without taking raid guilds ML away.
10/01/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Striff
Sorry to inform you I was a raider up to wod. Look at achievements don't believe me. I stop raiding because of sever crash and disability. Despite that I still raid in legion with family. This is not my main account. I retired that account. because not paying two accounts in BFA.


Based on your achievements you've raided Normal or Heroic. Both of those difficulties once again don't highlight why Master Loot was an important piece to the raiding scene.

10/01/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Striff
Second LFR does not matter one bit. It is a dumb argument devoid of any intelligent response. The problem is and was guild like that one. If read my response I like ML and want it back. BUt it was abused. I have friends and one child who joined guild like that and presently left after one raid when it was clear. There are and were too many abusive guilds. Pl solved it. but hurt mythic raiders. who need ML. But needs to be done responsibly.


And the guilds that abused it don't make it to the end. There's no logic in a raid leader that has "friends" that they feed loot to while everyone else has to just fight over scraps and stay at lower ilvls. A raid team cannot progress like that.

I've played since Vanilla. I've been in a variety of guilds. I have a well developed opinion, that PL benefits the majority and hurts the minority such as high level guilds

[i] that try to effectively allocate loot and/or reserve desirable loot away from non-established raiders in a guild.

[/I] HERE IS THE PROBLEM.

It is my belief that PL is more beneficial and healthy to the game than ML. It has it's problems, sure, but when has ML ever been without issues either?


Right there. Highlighted it for you. If it's that big of a problem for low tier guilds, then have it only work for guilds that raid between Normal and Heroic. They should have left Master Loot for Mythic Difficulty.


Ok do you read or not. I said ml is good for mythic raid guild if done right. second. I have done mythic on my primary account. BUt again i say this ML was abused by a ton of mythic guilds. I live in a town that is for a better word wow central. they have houses with either horde or allaince signs on porches. not kidding you. There are several mythic raider guilds here. They alll say the same thing ML was being abused.

Look at separate line. That is what i am talking about. that is and will be considered abusive. Funneling is bad in long run. because it hurts peopel progresion. your guild only cared about its core memebers. you repeated it so many times. that they do not now want to run with anyone because they dont want to share loot. Your raiders are shelfish, period. reason why mL was taken away.

I read you post twice. It had the same them. we did not want to run with other peopel becuase we did not want to share our loot. because it hurt our chances. see the pattern. "our". when you in a true mythic raid its "us" not our core group. But us all of the allaince. Your alliance should never be given ML.
10/01/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Brissandy
Out of curiosity ... let's say a helmet upgrade drops on the next run you're on but they only let people who are friends with the raid lead roll on it and you're told you're not allowed to roll.


If I'm in a pug with a friend you can guarantee any item is not going up for roll until I ask my friend if they need it, to use their own argument against them, "It's my loot I can do what I want with it", heck depending how I feel I might just give it to the first person who whispers me if they are polite and ignore the idiot who keeps badgering me.

Then again this happened in Legion anyway, for some reason they wanted to force this onto organised raiders too, something that most people who were whining about masterloot don't do.
@Wsedfgghj

Ok let me understand this. for years your guild supported you and your core raiders by funneling gear. Now that ML is taken away you guys are now turning your backs on the ones supporting you. So basically the majority members of guild were there for your core members only. once no longer useful you no longer help them. Think about that and how wrong it sounds.

That is not a wow or master loot problem. that your guild problem. It sound to me. that they were using members for you and your core members own gain. once they could not. they turn their backs on them. That why you are having problem. You and you core are ignore your fellow members. because you and fellow core are selfish. Instead of being what you said your guild was. It instead was really just a guild built to help a few members on false permissive.

I work 60 hours a week and still play wow 10 hours a week. I can get a whole lot done if wanted to. but I don't want to raid anymore. not my thing. But in my day I did raid with those hours, mange a family and done other things. It called time management.

I bold printed ones that send out what wrong.
Instead of being able to bring in casuals, regardless of skill, our raid team has become hyper sensitive in bringing in any player outside of our mythic roster for fear that the push loot will go to them. When competing at our level, every piece of gear matters to a boss kill while pushing for Famed Slayer titles.


This trend is exacerbated by our players not being able to maintain a certain item level due to push loot and azerite forcing them to do more M+ to maintain item levels at the level we need to compete. Rather than our players being able to organize their time to help our casuals and social members do their weekly keys, they instead are forced to play with only raiders to help further distribute gear. Now instead of taking our outside of raid roster players to Heroic, Normal, Mythic, or Mythic + we feel like bringing them to any of this content actively HURTS our ability to raid. Many of us work full time jobs and the time we dedicate to the game is limited, so using more time to do more keys and more content with our non-raid roster isn’t really an option.
10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
Ok do you read or not. I said ml is good for mythic raid guild if done right.


So then leaving it for Mythic shouldn't be a problem then.

10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
second. I have done mythic on my primary account. BUt again i say this ML was abused by a ton of mythic guilds. I live in a town that is for a better word wow central. they have houses with either horde or allaince signs on porches. not kidding you. There are several mythic raider guilds here. They alll say the same thing ML was being abused.


I don't buy it when anyone says "I have a 2nd account that I did x content" ever. Either post on that character or that point is moot.

I also don't buy the "wow central". A town with several houses with Horde or Alliance signs on porches with several of them being mythic raiders? Do they all go out to lunch too? Sorry I don't buy it at all. Just sounds like another wild fantasy to add to the "horror stories" about how horrible ML is.

10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
Look at separate line. That is what i am talking about. that is and will be considered abusive. Funneling is bad in long run. because it hurts peopel progresion. your guild only cared about its core memebers. you repeated it so many times. that they do not now want to run with anyone because they dont want to share loot. Your raiders are shelfish, period. reason why mL was taken away.


False. Again you are ignorant of how ML worked if you truly believe this. Funneling was good because it allowed people to get their BiS pieces the moment that it dropped. If we have a Boomkin that gets a 5% increase on their DPS compared to a Mage that gets a 10% increase, then no duh we're giving it to the mage.

That's what made ML great. That there was a layer of RNG and player choice in the matter of loot.

10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
I read you post twice. It had the same them. we did not want to run with other peopel becuase we did not want to share our loot. because it hurt our chances. see the pattern. "our". when you in a true mythic raid its "us" not our core group. But us all of the allaince. Your alliance should never be given ML.


How would you know what a true mythic raid is supposed to be like? As I said earlier, you've yet to provide any substantial evidence about what you did in the past. It's been either "on my 2nd account" or "what mythic raiders that I know that live in this fantasy town that has faction crests on their porches".

So your entire point here is moot.
10/01/2018 08:23 PMPosted by Wiskey
@Wsedfgghj

Ok let me understand this. for years your guild supported you and your core raiders by funneling gear. Now that ML is taken away you guys are now turning your backs on the ones supporting you. So basically the majority members of guild were there for your core members only. once no longer useful you no longer help them. Think about that and how wrong it sounds.


...yes, actually. The flip side of master looting is ensuring someone who sometimes shows up is guaranteed an item if it drops. But it also means that the people who show up every raid night get priority, because they're the ones carrying the raid.

I can only assume your opinion stems from limited, or zero experience raiding because if you've been in raid guilds you know what it's like. You will have those people who can always show up for farm night, contribute very little to the raid, but still collect gear, but as soon as it's progression, they have every excuse for why they either can't show up or need to leave early. And this new loot system actively encourages that kind of aggressively antisocial behavior that's ruining the game's experience. Raiding isn't about you, it's about the team.

Like, the expressed reason for removing master looting was because people would utilize it to ninja loot, but I think the actual reason was blizzard wanting to exert yet more control over the player base. Because Blizzard waited an awful long time to decide it was a problem now, but not in, say, Cataclysm.
10/01/2018 08:35 PMPosted by Shantarin
10/01/2018 08:23 PMPosted by Wiskey
@Wsedfgghj

Ok let me understand this. for years your guild supported you and your core raiders by funneling gear. Now that ML is taken away you guys are now turning your backs on the ones supporting you. So basically the majority members of guild were there for your core members only. once no longer useful you no longer help them. Think about that and how wrong it sounds.


...yes, actually. The flip side of master looting is ensuring someone who sometimes shows up is guaranteed an item if it drops. But it also means that the people who show up every raid night get priority, because they're the ones carrying the raid.

I can only assume your opinion stems from limited, or zero experience raiding because if you've been in raid guilds you know what it's like. You will have those people who can always show up for farm night, contribute very little to the raid, but still collect gear, but as soon as it's progression, they have every excuse for why they either can't show up or need to leave early. And this new loot system actively encourages that kind of aggressively antisocial behavior that's ruining the game's experience. Raiding isn't about you, it's about the team.

Like, the expressed reason for removing master looting was because people would utilize it to ninja loot, but I think the actual reason was blizzard wanting to exert yet more control over the player base. Because Blizzard waited an awful long time to decide it was a problem now, but not in, say, Cataclysm.


I understand that and agree. But no way anyone can support this guy. read his post. this is nothing to do with that. it has to do with fact his guild was giving loot to help core raiders for years. now Master loot gone. His guild no longer supporting its members. that what I am saying.

False. Again you are ignorant of how ML worked if you truly believe this. Funneling was good because it allowed people to get their BiS pieces the moment that it dropped. If we have a Boomkin that gets a 5% increase on their DPS compared to a Mage that gets a 10% increase, then no duh we're giving it to the mage. That's what made ML great. That there was a layer of RNG and player choice in the matter of loot.


I like to take this up. Funneling, Let me explain and actually read this. It only works if you know that guy going to be there for long haul. If not then then give to guy who going to be there the longest and most show. I seen funneling handle right and wrong. It really depends on a host a factors. dps should be last.

Second how can you defend this guild? I like to know. yeah I don't do much raiding. stop it for variety of reason. none of them relevant. But this guild screams abusive.
10/01/2018 04:00 PMPosted by Oakttg
The change really has hurt our guilds enthusiasm for raiding. In legion we made sure our core was getting gear, but we also had guild loot rules that took into account things like have you gotten any gear this week, or if it was a tier token, people who didnt have the piece got first dibs and then when it dropped in the future we just took turns gambling on titanforging.

People have bad luck and get no gear from the PL system, it can make a week of raiding feel unrewarding. Grinding AP outside of the raid to try and push harder in mythic also feels bad, especially with how shallow the non-raid content is right now.

I imagine by the 2nd raid tier we will be mostly dealing with the roster boss again.

At this point just let people xrealm pug mythic from the start, if they don't want guilds to be a thing, just let me xrealm with other peoples mythic raids so I can raid whenever I am able to log on and don't have to maintain a classic style 2 raid nights a week at a set time for a set duration.


Its a mean to to extend content. Its that simple. Has nothing to do with taking away control. If you can't distribute gear then the gearing process takes longer. Same reasoning behind azerite gear. Replay same old content to get the traits you want.
10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
As someone who pugs I like the changes.


ARRGGGGHGGHHHGGHHG this is soooo frustrating to read.

THE CHANGES DID NOT EFFECT YOU, YOU COULDN'T MASTERLOOT PUGS IN LEGION AND HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SINCE WOD.

/rant mode off

10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
In many runs i've seen in the RL give drops to their bad teammates who screwed up the raid multiple times instead of giving it to those who actually deserved after doing their job correctly.


This will still happen except those players will just trade their ploot to said bad player.

/shrug
10/01/2018 08:59 PMPosted by Sabod
10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
As someone who pugs I like the changes.


ARRGGGGHGGHHHGGHHG this is soooo frustrating to read.

THE CHANGES DID NOT EFFECT YOU, YOU COULDN'T MASTERLOOT PUGS IN LEGION AND HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SINCE WOD.

/rant mode off

10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
In many runs i've seen in the RL give drops to their bad teammates who screwed up the raid multiple times instead of giving it to those who actually deserved after doing their job correctly.


This will still happen except those players will just trade their ploot to said bad player.

/shrug


Never underestimate the ineptitude of idiots
10/01/2018 08:31 PMPosted by Jalen
10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
Ok do you read or not. I said ml is good for mythic raid guild if done right.


So then leaving it for Mythic shouldn't be a problem then.

10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
second. I have done mythic on my primary account. BUt again i say this ML was abused by a ton of mythic guilds. I live in a town that is for a better word wow central. they have houses with either horde or allaince signs on porches. not kidding you. There are several mythic raider guilds here. They alll say the same thing ML was being abused.


I don't buy it when anyone says "I have a 2nd account that I did x content" ever. Either post on that character or that point is moot.

I also don't buy the "wow central". A town with several houses with Horde or Alliance signs on porches with several of them being mythic raiders? Do they all go out to lunch too? Sorry I don't buy it at all. Just sounds like another wild fantasy to add to the "horror stories" about how horrible ML is.

10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
Look at separate line. That is what i am talking about. that is and will be considered abusive. Funneling is bad in long run. because it hurts peopel progresion. your guild only cared about its core memebers. you repeated it so many times. that they do not now want to run with anyone because they dont want to share loot. Your raiders are shelfish, period. reason why mL was taken away.


False. Again you are ignorant of how ML worked if you truly believe this. Funneling was good because it allowed people to get their BiS pieces the moment that it dropped. If we have a Boomkin that gets a 5% increase on their DPS compared to a Mage that gets a 10% increase, then no duh we're giving it to the mage.

That's what made ML great. That there was a layer of RNG and player choice in the matter of loot.

10/01/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Striff
I read you post twice. It had the same them. we did not want to run with other peopel becuase we did not want to share our loot. because it hurt our chances. see the pattern. "our". when you in a true mythic raid its "us" not our core group. But us all of the allaince. Your alliance should never be given ML.


How would you know what a true mythic raid is supposed to be like? As I said earlier, you've yet to provide any substantial evidence about what you did in the past. It's been either "on my 2nd account" or "what mythic raiders that I know that live in this fantasy town that has faction crests on their porches".

So your entire point here is moot.


First the problem is mote to me. You don't know where I live. so what you say is irrelevant there. second. sense you don't have a second account I cant say you are a real raider. most raiders have two account for variety of reason. At least that my experience. I can be wrong there.

second I see you were the reason ml was gotten rid of. I believe you abused it and trying to cover it up. this is based on your post and attitude.

Thrid. I will say this. if you such a good mythic raider why bring in other people. my core group showed up or we waited. we did not bring in others. it mess up dynamics. Mythic raiding required you to know your fellow players. a new person only leads to wipe in my experience. again I can be wrong. this based on my experience.

last you were and was the problem. you need to realize this.
10/01/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Striff
First the problem is mote to me. You don't know where I live. so what you say is irrelevant there.


Your IRL means nothing to me. It holds no weight as a means to a point because that's a perspective that you'll never be able to provide legitimate proof of. Keep your points about the game. Not your living status.

10/01/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Striff
second. sense you don't have a second account I cant say you are a real raider. most raiders have two account for variety of reason. At least that my experience. I can be wrong there.


Completely

10/01/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Striff
second I see you were the reason ml was gotten rid of. I believe you abused it and trying to cover it up. this is based on your post and attitude.


You said second twice. And during Antorus progression I was one of the least geared players on the team and I'm the GM / Raid Leader. It was only near the end of our progression that I caught to everyone in ilvls while doing Aggramar.

Try again

10/01/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Striff
Thrid. I will say this. if you such a good mythic raider why bring in other people. my core group showed up or we waited. we did not bring in others. it mess up dynamics. Mythic raiding required you to know your fellow players. a new person only leads to wipe in my experience. again I can be wrong. this based on my experience.


Actually supposed to be fourth.

And what kind of point is this supposed to be? There are various reasons why you recruit new players to the team. Recruitment never stops for Mythic raid teams. Things like IRL coming up and either being a reason why a certain player misses a raid night or unable to raid with the team at all is a constant issue.

There are also fights like G'huun that favor having spam classes like Warlock and Monk due to the gauntlet run. Another example was Mythic Sisters in Antorus. Progression became 10x easier if you had a full ranged line for that fight.

Having a team of +20 for your raid at all times makes progression much easier. Having a set 20 is setting yourself up for failure. This is not even a point dude.

10/01/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Striff
last you were and was the problem. you need to realize this.


You've provided no reasoning for why I'm a problem and why the new and old members of our raid team should have quit during Antorus Progression.
The game system affects every guild the same, yet some guilds have strong vibrant and prosperous communities while others do not.

The game system never
brought people together.
talked to people in discord
created fun events for people to do
resolved interpersonal problems
recruited new members
encouraged existing members
worked with menders to improve their game play

People did that.

If your guild is failing, the problem is ineffective leadership.

Other guilds have great leadership and do just fine.
10/01/2018 09:56 PMPosted by Tinkerizmo
The game system affects every guild the same, yet some guilds have strong vibrant and prosperous communities while others do not.

The game system never
brought people together.
talked to people in discord
created fun events for people to do
resolved interpersonal problems
recruited new members
encouraged existing members
worked with menders to improve their game play

People did that.

If your guild is failing, the problem is ineffective leadership.

Other guilds have great leadership and do just fine.


This is stupid.

The Donner party didn't eat each other because of ineffective leadership.

They ate each other because Uncle Murphy dealt them a raw deal and they would have starved otherwise.

Do not deny that the Master Loot system was functional and that every person who subjected themselves to it was a consenting individual.

Personal loot is slow and inefficient by comparison.
OP, I agree with everything you posted, but...

A name change isn't that expensive.
"My friend's grandpa, former Method raider on his 5th account, now work for SEGA, lose their loot to 50 man ML run that funnel every loot to 1 person, currently he's crippled after his Apache crash landed in Alaska so he's only doing LFR" - Every GD LFR Hero in a nutshell
Blizzard has been killing guilds and sense of achievement for years man.

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