BFA Systems Hurt Guilds Sense of Community - A Mythic Raiding Guild Master's Perspective

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My biggest problem with forced PL is ilvl trade restrictions. It's really annoying getting an item 5 ilvl higher with complete useless stats for my class and not being able to trade it to someone else in my guild who could use it. PL outside of that is fine imo.
Except I do know how loot works. Perhaps you should educate yourself first before posting on the subject matter. Because I'm not going to bring someone to our raid unless it's a trial or someone that I know on another raid team within guild that could fill a spot for someone that had IRL obligations.

If the loot drops, then I want it to go to someone that's on the team and looks to aid in our progression.


Yes, thus the point. If you're intentionally excluding people because you're salty about loot they are getting that doesn't impact you at all and you have spots that you used to fill with these people (as per the OP) but now refuse to...if you'd rather leave those spots unfilled... well ... then that says a lot of very not pleasant things about you as a person and absolutely nothing about whether the loot system is good or bad. But thanks for clarifying for us!

My biggest problem with forced PL is ilvl trade restrictions. It's really annoying getting an item 5 ilvl higher with complete useless stats for my class and not being able to trade it to someone else in my guild who could use it. PL outside lf that is fine imo.


I'll absolutely agree with you on this. Though I see that as a symptom of the fact that secondary stats aren't close enough on a per spec basis and not that PL is bad or good. If a piece of gear at 340 (just using random numbers here) was always better than a 335 piece regardless of the secondary stats then it wouldn't be a problem in my eyes. But it's understandable either way. They stated their goal was the higher ilvl piece would be better regardless, but the ideal doesn't often equivocate to reality.
My take personal loot was put in place to punish people for wanting to do away for lfr. We dealt with it and it sucked. Blizzard got tired of raiders saying get rid of LFR. So they turn tables and gave them they same loot crap with been dealing with years.

That or guilds who used players so much that even blizzard could not take it anymore. Seeing op post I am thinking they reason why master loot gone. Hey who knows it could be just that master loot was too good. that people where gearing too fast. they need to slow down.
The key problem here is the continued removal of player choice. The mythic guys should have every right to funnel loot in their high end guilds irrespective of some notion of moral obligation. If you don't like it, start your own guild.

Equally, those at any point of the raiding spectrum should have the option of enforcing PL if that is how their guild rolls. Don't like it? Find a guild who does it in a way you like. Doesn't exist? Create one and work for it.

Again, the crime here is removal of player/guild choice.

In nature the prey must adapt to evade the predator, yet as humans we seem to strive to defang the beast as opposed to arm and elevate the hunted. It is !@# backwards and regressive imho.
10/02/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Poynty
The key problem here is the continued removal of player choice. The mythic guys should have every right to funnel loot in their high end guilds irrespective of some notion of moral obligation. If you don't like it, start your own guild.

Equally, those at any point of the raiding spectrum should have the option of enforcing PL if that is how their guild rolls. Don't like it? Find a guild who does it in a way you like. Doesn't exist? Create one and work for it.

Again, the crime here is removal of player/guild choice.

In nature the prey must adapt to evade the predator, yet as humans we seem to strive to defang the beast as opposed to arm and elevate the hunted. It is !@# backwards and regressive imho.


Like I said. I think I am seeing a pattern here. I bet if pl is abused they going to restrict that more. a dog who does not learn from past mistake. is just a bad dog. no pun intended.

Look guys I understand funneling and reason. but I am betting there was ram bet abuse of it. that is reason why master loot gone.
Even as a casual player who rarely, if ever does any raiding anymore, very well said. This change that was seemingly intended to help casual players does more to hurt them than anything.

Friendly, casual dungeon runs with friends are hurt quite considerably, too, when I find myself unable to trade an item to one of said friends when it has poor stats for me - because, thanks to the ilevel system, the game considers it an 'upgrade'. It doesn't upgrade anyone when it's turned into enchanting mats, however...
Im only here to say I support ML and want it back as a fellow mythic raider.
I was scarred when the only other DH(tank) got the mythic glaives he wasnt able to trade as opposed to giving to me, a dps. This is straight up cancer to guild progression
10/02/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Poynty
The key problem here is the continued removal of player choice. The mythic guys should have every right to funnel loot in their high end guilds irrespective of some notion of moral obligation. If you don't like it, start your own guild.

Equally, those at any point of the raiding spectrum should have the option of enforcing PL if that is how their guild rolls. Don't like it? Find a guild who does it in a way you like. Doesn't exist? Create one and work for it.

Again, the crime here is removal of player/guild choice.

In nature the prey must adapt to evade the predator, yet as humans we seem to strive to defang the beast as opposed to arm and elevate the hunted. It is !@# backwards and regressive imho.


Except that's not how stuff works in real life and you liking or not liking it doesn't matter. ML is gone. Crying over spilt milk is irrelevant. Blizzard dealt with ML like we do everything else. We have seat belt laws, speed limits, helmet laws, and on and on and on and on forever. We restrict things when some people abuse them. Because we can't trust that people will do the right thing, if given the opportunity people do engage in exploitive/abusive/harmful behavior and the only way to prevent it is to remove the option entirely.

I did like the fallacious appeal to 'player choice' though. We all know there wasn't any choice when it came to Mythic raiding. There was an objectively best way to min/max gear distribution and the system that benefits the core raid group simultaneously benefits the people making the decisions about which loot system to use. It's a no brainer that everyone used a system that was personally advantageous. It's human nature. I don't know of a single competitive raid guild that ever used PL. Either way, that's all moot. ML is now gone because people couldn't self regulate. Kicking the dead horse is just sad.

10/02/2018 05:14 AMPosted by Boozdog
This is straight up cancer to guild progression


Anyone who equivocates loot distribution in a video game to cancer invalidates their own opinion.
I dunno. I have a lot of characters who have belonged to a lot of guilds. I haven't seen a lot of casuals being carried. In fact, I've seen next to none.

Alts and best buddies of the raiders? Yep. Anybody else? Nope.

It's not that different from guilds that brag that they "run M+ to help guild members", when what happens is they are always running in the same cliques, which means they are more advanced than the people they think they are helping, who end up having to pug their keys.
I did like the fallacious appeal to 'player choice' though. We all know there wasn't any choice when it came to Mythic raiding. There was an objectively best way to min/max gear distribution and the system that benefits the core raid group simultaneously benefits the people making the decisions about which loot system to use. It's a no brainer that everyone used a system that was personally advantageous. It's human nature. I don't know of a single competitive raid guild that ever used PL. Either way, that's all moot. ML is now gone because people couldn't self regulate. Kicking the dead horse is just sad.
It is a choice to use ML... That's not a fallacious claim. If you hated ML so much, and there were sooo many mythic capable players who also equally hated ML sooo much... Then form your own PL guild. From the looks of these threads it should've been easy.

The fact of the matter is that there are different types of player in WoW. Those who enjoy LFR, those who enjoy PuGing, and those who enjoy progression (obviously there are many more types). ML was a tool for those who enjoy placing progression above personal gain. It's a choice to engage in that style of game play. Heck there are heroic guilds out there that prefer ML because of this mindset. They may not have the skill to roflstomp heroic like Mythic prog guilds, but that doesn't invalidate that they prefer a system that is progression oriented.

You know what was fallacious though? Your argument that player abuse is somehow the cause of this. You have zero evidence to back this up. That wasn't a fact... That's your opinion.

Here's a fact though. Before you had the CHOICE to protect yourself from crappy guilds who were abusing ML. Now you have no choice and instead are just subjected to the other methods crappy guilds can use to screw you over. Ever heard of a raid roster? Ever heard of being sat repeatedly or having nepotism see old faces taking your place? How are you going to protect against that sort of abuse?

This fix improved nothing. Crappy guilds are STILL crappy. Now we just have one less method to find good guilds.
10/02/2018 05:21 AMPosted by Nyhlia
Anyone who equivocates loot distribution in a video game to cancer invalidates their own opinion.

As a health professional, I despise cancer with all my being. That being said... the word has more than one meaning. And in this sense, I think he's using the latter.

can·cer
ˈkansər/Submit
noun
the disease caused by an uncontrolled division of abnormal cells in a part of the body.
"he's got cancer"
a malignant growth or tumor resulting from the division of abnormal cells.
plural noun: cancers
"most skin cancers are curable"
synonyms: malignant growth, cancerous growth, tumor, malignancy; More
a practice or phenomenon perceived to be evil or destructive and hard to contain or eradicate.
"racism is a cancer sweeping across Europe"

synonyms: evil, blight, scourge, poison, canker, plague; archaicpestilence
10/01/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Brissandy
The people this ML change hurts the most are the casual/social players in guilds who used to be able to come along to farm content but are now forced to sit on the bench doing nothing or, even worse, feel pushed out of the guild activities with friends and into pugs with strangers.


How is this at all related to systems?

This would be a choice that guilds make on how to treat their members.
10/02/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Synsha
You know what was fallacious though? Your argument that player abuse is somehow the cause of this. You have zero evidence to back this up. That wasn't a fact... That's your opinion.


Perhaps you missed the Q&A where the Game Director himself directly pointed at abusive behavior as the justification for the change. lol, I'll give you a moment to remove your foot from your mouth while I enjoy a chuckle.

But I'm not even certain I buy that honestly, even though I admit it was probably part of it. My guess is the biggest issue was how fast mythic raid guilds could funnel loot via split raiding.

10/02/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Synsha
Here's a fact though. Before you had the CHOICE to protect yourself from crappy guilds who were abusing ML. Now you have no choice and instead are just subjected to the other methods crappy guilds can use to screw you over. Ever heard of a raid roster? Ever heard of being sat repeatedly or having nepotism see old faces taking your place? How are you going to protect against that sort of abuse?


None of that is related to the abuses of ML, whether we're talking loot funneling or biased loot distribution. They are distinct problems. Here's a fact for you to chew on though. ML is gone. It's not coming back regardless of how salty you are about it going away.

a practice or phenomenon perceived to be evil or destructive and hard to contain or eradicate.
"racism is a cancer sweeping across Europe"


Oi, your bias is really causing you to reach. How, exactly, is that any better than the initial impression people have when someone compares something to cancer? So loot distribution in a video game is somehow equivalent to "racism is a cancer sweeping across Europe"? Oh I get it, you are extremely salty and angsty about ML, so therefore since you agree with him it's entirely acceptable to be hyperbolic to the extreme. Here's a tip, it's not. It just makes you look unempathetic and childish.
10/01/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Zeusgodofsky
10/01/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Áysha
As someone who pugs I like the changes.

In many runs i've seen in the RL give drops to their bad teammates who screwed up the raid multiple times instead of giving it to those who actually deserved after doing their job correctly.

In many runs I've seen RL calling for a roll only to give it to their buddies regardless of who rolled higher, in fact I've 'won' a roll before only to have someone who didn't even roll keep the item on more than one occasion.

The former system was abused and I'm glad it's gone.
Correct.


Not correct. Pugs already couldn't use masterloot unless they were at least 80% guild. And you CHOSE to join those groups. I never once ran a pug where master loot was used and i geared 3 separate alts up via raid pugs.
10/02/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Mvura
How is this at all related to systems?

This would be a choice that guilds make on how to treat their members.
The guild had the choice previously to ensure that upgrades to the raid team went to the raid team. Of course any pieces the raid team didn't need would happily be sent to any player who could use it. It's a symbiotic relationship... They get a full clear with pretty much zero drama, we get more players in to increase the chances of rewards, but MOST importantly... We all get to raid with each other and laugh together.

Now... Bringing a player not on the team is actually a parasitic relationship. They get a full clear and they take loot that rolls for them (cause obviously they can't trade it with the ilvl restrictions). Them coming actually hurts us. Please understand that these players WANT to give us the loot. Heck last expac we brought people along and guess who got legendary trinket off Argus? Yup... a random alt that wasn't even used again... Now it's the same way except for ALL loot.

Again, this is all just a difference in mindset. People who put progression above personal gain understand why this now sucks. Those who put individual gain above progression, don't get it.
Perhaps you missed the Q&A where the Game Director himself directly pointed at abusive behavior as the justification for the change. lol, I'll give you a moment to remove your foot from your mouth while I enjoy a chuckle.

But I'm not even certain I buy that honestly, even though I admit it was probably part of it. My guess is the biggest issue was how fast mythic raid guilds could funnel loot via split raiding.
Lmfao... you mean that line about trials that was summarily disproven by the community. Do we really need to rehash that?
None of that is related to the abuses of ML, whether we're talking loot funneling or biased loot distribution. They are distinct problems. Here's a fact for you to chew on though. ML is gone. It's not coming back regardless of how salty you are about it going away.
Oh I know that. Doesn’t change the fact that this was a immeasurable stupid decision and it’s fun to point out why people like you can’t understand that.
Oi, your bias is really causing you to reach. How, exactly, is that any better than the initial impression people have when someone compares something to cancer? So loot distribution in a video game is somehow equivalent to "racism is a cancer sweeping across Europe"? Oh I get it, you are extremely salty and angsty about ML, so therefore since you agree with him it's entirely acceptable to be hyperbolic to the extreme. Here's a tip, it's not. It just makes you look unempathetic and childish.

...

You don’t seem like a particularly nice person. I can see why you want forced PL. You seem to relish in the frustrations of others.
10/02/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Synsha
Of course any pieces the raid team didn't need would happily be sent to any player who could use it. It's a symbiotic relationship... They get a full clear with pretty much zero drama, we get more players in to increase the chances of rewards, but MOST importantly... We all get to raid with each other and laugh together.


Yes, plebs, gather round! You shall do the work and we shall reap the rewards. You can enjoy our table scraps and you will be thankful! Clearly you want to give us all the loots!

Sounds like you have the whole parasitic thing inverted.

10/02/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Synsha
Now... Bringing a player not on the team is actually a parasitic relationship. They get a full clear and they take loot that rolls for them (cause obviously they can't trade it with the ilvl restrictions). Them coming actually hurts us.


So you fundamentally misunderstand the way loot works if you think this. Loot that rolls for a player is not loot that the raid would have gotten if they weren't present. It causes no harm at all to your raid to fill spots with casuals, socials, trials, whatever because loot isn't distributed that way anymore.

10/02/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Synsha
Again, this is all just a difference in mindset. People who put progression above personal gain understand why this now sucks. Those who put individual gain above progression, don't get it.


That's just you dismissing other people's opinions because you don't agree with them. We understand the situation perfectly fine. It is funny listening to you try to justify why your opinion has more merit than everyone else's though. Let me just pretend I don't have Magic Seeker and that I didn't hardcore raid (as a guild leader or raid leader) the first ~6 years the game was out. But just because I'm a different type of player today than I was 10 years ago doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what it means to be in a mythic raid guild.
So basically the OP is mad because he can no longer use players to advance his inner circle in terms of loot drops. Gotcha.
10/02/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Synsha
You know what was fallacious though? Your argument that player abuse is somehow the cause of this. You have zero evidence to back this up. That wasn't a fact... That's your opinion.


Ok then why was master loot taken away?

I am advent forms reader. never seen that much out cry for removal. yet it is gone. There had to be a reason for it. when no other but two things make sense. it was very badly abused or dev wanted to slow down progression. Case can made that both were the reason.

No there was no a lot of out cry on form about guilds abusing it. some but not enough. to justified this. I really think people need to really processes this.
Blizzard needs a type of PAWN system in-game that can analyze gear drops and let you trade pieces that are not an upgrade for your character.

You're raiding as a guild, as a team. Sure, that 5% upgrade is good for your character, but then it's a 25% upgrade for the other guy in the group.

You should be willing to make that little sacrifice to help the group overall, or else you don't belong in the raiding scene. This is bad enough on Heroic, let alone mythic.

The fact I can loot a pair of 390 gauntlets with crap stats, and not give them to a buddy when they aren't even an upgrade over the 365 ones I'm wearing is signs of a broken system.

People will complain that they will be "forced" to give their gear away because it's a bigger upgrade for someone else.

No -good- guild is going to harass you over something like this, but if you're trying to hold on to a 1% dps increase over someone's 10% dps increase that would overall benefit the group way more, you're the selfish bastard.
10/01/2018 03:52 PMPosted by Sechi
Like, is there really a point in them coming if you're going to funnel the loot away from them anyway


I know this might come as a shock to you, but some people don't care about gear.

Some people are fine with this because they get to hang out with friends and actually participate in the raid, even a little bit, instead of just sitting there twiddling their thumbs.

Also, if they do care about gear, and arent as short-sighted as some people, they will stick around, because guess what happens to all that gear that is no longer wanted? If you guessed the friends get it, your right. If you've ever been wrong in a guild, (i.e. they disenchant before giving it to friends), then that is not a family guild.

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