MoP Class Design, Let's Go Back.

General Discussion
First off, I didn't make this thread just to yell at blizz, I just want class design to improve. Believe me when I say that no one is saltier about the direction class design has taken than me ( I made the mistake of falling in love with and maining demo lock in MoP). Even so, I want to keep a level head and try to explain as clearly as I can why this has become such a big deal and why the current direction we're going in is no good. If communication between devs and players is going to improve, it isn’t going to be through yelling at each other or behaving passive aggressively.

Over the past few years we have all seen threads popping up on the forums/reddit/etc. Voicing displeasure over the direction of WoW’s general class design. Stuff like #StopThePrune and #RevertToMoP. Player’s have only grown increasingly frustrated at this issue as to us it seems like we’re just being shrugged off completely.

I’m sure many of you on this forum have participated or at least seen the most recent thread in GD about this.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172

It started nearing 900 upvotes in the fairly short amount of time that it lingered on the front of general discussion. We didn’t get a blue post or a cap extend. As far as we know it may not have even been seen by anyone at blizzard.

Seeing that we are now 3 expansions away from MoP and threads like this are still popping up, it has become pretty clear that this isn’t an issue that will just go away unless some major changes happen.

I understand that when you are looking for feedback you don’t want to hear it from an emotional and ranty voice. That’s why I am going to try condensing all this criticism in to a few main points, as respectfully as I can.

-Legion went too far with class changes.
Almost every spec in the game received fundamental changes to the way they played in legion. If a player wakes up one day to find that their main, that they played and loved for years, is now fundamentally different from what it was, it would be understandable if they are upset. In some cases people literally had their main spec removed to make way for something else (Demo lock / SV hunter). Between all the pruning and redesigning, the class we play now is not the same class many of us chose to main.

-Ability pruning/talent trees
This is a pretty big subject but i’ll keep it short. The pruning from wod which was supposed to remove all the useless fluff from our action bars evolved in to removing tons of baseline utility and class abilities(stuff like shocks for all shaman specs, poisons for rogues, stances/presences, etc.) On top of that many abilities were put in talent trees. Now instead of players picking out new things to play with from talent trees, they are filling their class back in with the abilities that used to be baseline for years.

-The skill cap is now objectively much lower.
Many players gravitated toward the specs that reward you for learning their finer complexities. Unholy DK for example was considered by many to be one of the harder specs in the game, and with the redesign many people feel like they have much less to sink their teeth into. This applies to all specs/classes to a greater or lesser extent.

Now why revert to MoP and not some other point in time? Because MoP is the last time many of us players felt like we were playing our full class. The changes that happened to classes between MoP and legion/bfa were far too aggressive and fast paced for us to reasonably evaluate. It felt like choosing a path to recklessly charge down and pray that it was the right choice when we should have practiced more caution.

No one is arguing that adding abilities forever is sustainable, but MoP would be the best launching point we have to try and redo class design the right way.
I would also like to add that r/WoW is hosting a series of class feedback megathreads for 8.1 starting on the 15th. If you are dissatisfied with how your class plays, please go participate and be vocal (and respectful).

There is a lot of yelling on the forums and other outlets right now, but if we want to be taken seriously we need to be more better than that.
Agreed
As much as i loved destruction in MoP there's no way in hell the current team would admit that they went in the wrong direction and revert to a previous set up.
10/01/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Humanìty
Agreed


It's like i just poured my heart out in a text and got hit with a "k".

10/01/2018 11:29 PMPosted by Virus
As much as i loved destruction in MoP there's no way in hell the current team would admit that they went in the wrong direction and revert to a previous set up.


I think the climate between the class devs and the player base is really bad right now. If we could at least work up to a point where they tell us more about their visions and overall goals for classes i think that would be a huge step up.
10/01/2018 11:29 PMPosted by Virus
As much as i loved destruction in MoP there's no way in hell the current team would admit that they went in the wrong direction and revert to a previous set up.


This. Their ego is too huge.

Plus imagine how they'd balance classes with MoP design when they can't even balance classes in BFA, where everyone is pruned af lololololol.
i miss MoP so much

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8VZ9KKkH4Q
10/02/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Shamenlol
10/01/2018 11:29 PMPosted by Virus
As much as i loved destruction in MoP there's no way in hell the current team would admit that they went in the wrong direction and revert to a previous set up.


This. Their ego is too huge.

Plus imagine how they'd balance classes with MoP design when they can't even balance classes in BFA, where everyone is pruned af lololololol.


That's sorta what it feels like at this point yeah.

10/02/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Aurigha
i miss MoP so much

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8VZ9KKkH4Q


There just isn't enough depth in our classes anymore to have the room to do stuff like that. PvP has been vastly less interesting than it used to be. Way less potential for hype moments.
Agreed, I was hoping the last thread would of been extended by a Blue but it seems like there purposely ignoring a thread that almost got 1k+ upvotes.
I want some things back from MoP class design, but warlocks in MoP were like DKs in wrath.

Absolute OP monsters in every aspect that could only be viewed as fun and fair if you were the one playing it.

Jab jab uplift can die in a fire though.
Vanilla class design sounds better...and yes, I know all about them..so no need to remind me.

But I'm sure you will anyway
10/02/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Stenze
Agreed, I was hoping the last thread would of been extended by a Blue but it seems like there purposely ignoring a thread that almost got 1k+ upvotes.


They're definitely making it difficult for it to feel like our voices are being heard on this subject. I tried making the main post as emotionless and clear cut as I could because I do think there are communication issues on both ends.

10/02/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Argorwal
I want some things back from MoP class design, but warlocks in MoP were like DKs in wrath.

Absolute OP monsters in every aspect that could only be viewed as fun and fair if you were the one playing it.


Of course no one is saying MoP is perfect. Warlocks were absolutely one of the strongest contenders in that expac but they also had some of the strongest fantasy and funnest rotations. The green fire questline will forever be remembered by me as one of my favorite moments in this game. I also didn't play demo because it was op, i played it because the playstyle captivated me. It was complex enough that I always felt like I had something to really sink my teeth into and improve upon. I love the idea of some evil schmuk delving so deep in to the study of demons that he can partially turn himself in to one.
Making classes great again = making WoW great again thank you for the post.
Mop Prot warrior was the pentacle of prot warrior. Now it's just a sad shell of itself :(
Pass...

Excessive CC bloat.

Over emphasis on burst windows over overall.

Mindless filler buttons just for the sake of being filler buttons.

Ramp up times and maintenance buffs to be competitive with other specs/classes that merely had to do a rotation.(often not being competitive)

Specs being completely unviable in PvP period.

Rotation effort for DPS output disparity for specs/classes could be drastically different, often with more intensive specs being outperformed by simple specs.

MoP class design wasn't all that great.

Some specs weren't even fun, like fury or ret.

Most of the people who liked MoP we're warlocks. For very obvious reasons. Easy rotations and overall high performance.
10/02/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Lathander
Pass...

Excessive CC bloat.

Mindless filler buttons just for the sake of being filler buttons.

Ramp up times and maintenance buffs to be competitive with other specs/classes that merely had to do a rotation.

Specs being completely unviable in PvP period.

Rotation effort for DPS output disparity for specs/classes could be drastically different, often with more intensive specs being outperformed by simple specs.

MoP class design wasn't all that great.

Some specs weren't even fun, like fury or ret.
Clearly didn’t play ret in MoP. LONG ARM OF THE LAW BABY.
I'm surprised so many are in favor of maintenance buffs which were pretty rampant then. Personally I likes them but the forum consensus at the time was to remove them all.

Return of inquisition!
I completely agree with you. Looking back at old videos of warlocks using Soul Swap, and Soul Burn to empower their abilities and utility is so nostalgic for me, and being able to cast Fel Flame on the move instead of just pointlessly refreshing my dots or if I'm another spec, suffering from movement, will be forever missed.
10/02/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Mettlebrew
Mop Prot warrior was the pentacle of prot warrior. Now it's just a sad shell of itself :(


Believe you mean pinnacle*

10/02/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Lathander
Excessive CC bloat.

Yes, I agree. By no means am I saying MoP should be our class design for now and forever, it would just be a good starting point. This is part of why pruning started in the first place. But we didn't get pruned we got hit with a sledgehammer. CC is fine if it's avoidable.

10/02/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Lathander
Specs being completely unviable in PvP period.

Go talk to DKs(any spec), warlocks(any spec), or MM hunters about this, i'm sure they'll humor you. For an expansion with simpler than ever classes, the pvp balance is some of the worst it's been.

10/02/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Lathander
Rotation effort for DPS output disparity for specs/classes could be drastically different, often with more intensive specs being outperformed by simple specs.

This thread isn't about balance. Some people want more to do than press 123 123 123 for an entire fight. Obviously people want to be rewarded for their effort if what they're doing is hard and that's fine. Numbers can be changed.

10/02/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Lathander
Some specs weren't even fun, like fury or ret.

Then fix the boring specs, not the specs that were already fine.

10/02/2018 12:53 PMPosted by Lathander
Most of the people who liked MoP we're warlocks. For very obvious reasons. Easy rotations and overall high performance.

If easy rotations and high performance were enough to like a class why did I see such a massive amount of hate for legion affliction lock? They were god kings of damage and simplicity. Also MoP Demo says hi.
10/02/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Archona
Vanilla class design sounds better...and yes, I know all about them..so no need to remind me.

But I'm sure you will anyway


Well if you like vanilla so much (I do too) there's this thing blizzard is working on right now that might make you happy.

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