BFA 8.1 Havoc Feedback - What's Next?

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
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10/09/2018 11:49 AMPosted by Släshcry
10/09/2018 10:30 AMPosted by Izanna
Im not acting anything. I just simple and plain disagree with you and with your feedback. IMO. (now ill use this everytime because we have to.) And disagreeing is just fine. Thats nothing wrong with that. Thats why the world is interesting. So dont take that as an attack.

Its not.
Seriously?

When you say things like this:
10/08/2018 06:44 PMPosted by Izanna
So if you want to discredit anything I said in my post, feel free to do so, just next time if you can, a little more reasoning would be appreciated.
You're trying to talk down to me because you're saying I'm not thinking logically or sensibly enough (you know... the definition of reasoning). That's an attack.

And when you start giving canned responses of:
10/08/2018 12:26 PMPosted by Izanna
The speed of pressing one and the other is completely different. Plus, im not the only one having a issue with this.

Ill say it one more time: IM NOT TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS, BUT DESIGN.
and state ridiculous statements like "the speed of pressing one and the other" (still don't know what you're inferring there)... shows me you're the one lacking reasoning.

You're entitled to your opinion if a class is fun or not. I can also come back and say that I disagree... but when you start going into tangents that numbers don't count (again, you misunderstood what I wrote in terms of dps numbers), and mentioning how you're not the only one that feels this way (as if to give weight to your argument... even though there are plenty of others who disagree with you, thus negating "the others" you mention), it just makes your argument silly.


Man, I really dont know how you feel attacked, all I did was expose my opinion and said that your arguments, not you, were bad. Im not attacking you or looking down on you in any shape or form. Yet you insist im being a jackass while Im trying to reason and be polite with you.

You dont want me to talk about the others? Fine. It is my own opinion all of it, if you choose to ignore all the people that gave valid feedback (and different from mine) during alpha/beta. Im not buying your fight man. You can take it and try to sell it somewhere else. I have nothing against you nor do I think your right to have a different opinion is wrong. So please, stop trying to push me into whatever is that youre trying to do.

Safe travels.
10/09/2018 05:56 AMPosted by Släshcry
...

The amount of times you'll take anything besides immolation aura are pretty much nonexistent as the amount of pure ST fights are so insignificant and with the vastly upgraded role of M+ in PvE a bunch of ST talents will never match an aoe one.

But I'm glad you consider deleting immolation aura and demon's bite for a rotation to basically end up with chaos strike and the occasional blade dance as the only buttons to press except for eyebeam every 30 seconds is good gameplay experience.
Felblade + dblades are for those that don't want as many button presses.

It was commonly considered that Nemesis was the laziest of gameplay and people were disappointed that it was the highest dps gain. That's exactly what the other two talents are - slight dps losses for lazier gameplay. What more do you want from those?


I don't care for a game that goes as far as catering to people who only want to press 2 buttons and occasionally a third one every half a minute.

This is the reason why proving grounds were removed as requirements to queue for dungeons and why I get 360 ilv DPS and healers being outDPS'd by my 345 demo warlock or outhealed by my 347 paladin tank.

Games should always have a decent baseline ask of the player where he is asked to put effort into improving and grasping the gameplay.

This isn't even feral druid levels of complexity or FFXIV/GW2 ele piano play. I just prefer a model where we look at windwalker monk from WoD for a satisfying class to play with enough intricacies that still are not unintuitive.
10/09/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Izanna
Man, I really dont know how you feel attacked, all I did was expose my opinion and said that your arguments, not you, were bad. Im not attacking you or looking down on you in any shape or form. Yet you insist im being a jackass while Im trying to reason and be polite with you.

You dont want me to talk about the others? Fine. It is my own opinion all of it, if you choose to ignore all the people that gave valid feedback (and different from mine) during alpha/beta. Im not buying your fight man. You can take it and try to sell it somewhere else. I have nothing against you nor do I think your right to have a different opinion is wrong. So please, stop trying to push me into whatever is that youre trying to do.

Safe travels.
So this is my biggest problem with how you think you debate politely, summed up in your rebuttal to this guy:
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Where are you seeing the poll at? I have to say I agree with Hekksdh, its fun right now, and I would rather the dev's leave us alone than break us. Knowing that the forums are mainly filled with complaints, but the dh forums are relatively quiet, I dont believe the majority think the class isn't fun. Heck in legion my guild had no DH raiders, in BFA we have 5 because they are in fact fun...


Did you guys even read what I posted at all? its not about the numbers.

First off, you said "the majority of the DH community disagree with you". You're the one making up numbers. Where do you see that it's a "majority of DH players"? The other guy even responded and tried to give some metric of how the DH class forums are quiet which implies (from his point of view) that the majority of DH players are not unhappy as you state. Is it an infallible conclusion? Of course not. But at least he tries to give some sort of proof as to why he thinks that your statement that "the majority of DH players disagree with [him]" is incorrect.

And what was your response to that? "it's not about the numbers." What does that have anything to do with his response? He mentioned that he thinks the spec is fun as well as others in his guild. No where did he state that he's topping the meters and that's the reason the spec is in a good place. He simply stated his opinion that he thinks the spec is fun as others in his guild think the same way too.

And that's exactly my point too.

But from your point of view I guess we're not using reason when we think about what is fun and somehow we're implying that doing decent dps numbers means we're fun.

And that's why your rebuttals have been bad. You reduce our statements down to incorrect statements.
...Felblade + dblades are for those that don't want as many button presses.

It was commonly considered that Nemesis was the laziest of gameplay and people were disappointed that it was the highest dps gain. That's exactly what the other two talents are - slight dps losses for lazier gameplay. What more do you want from those?


I don't care for a game that goes as far as catering to people who only want to press 2 buttons and occasionally a third one every half a minute.

This is the reason why proving grounds were removed as requirements to queue for dungeons and why I get 360 ilv DPS and healers being outDPS'd by my 345 demo warlock or outhealed by my 347 paladin tank.

Games should always have a decent baseline ask of the player where he is asked to put effort into improving and grasping the gameplay.

This isn't even feral druid levels of complexity or FFXIV/GW2 ele piano play. I just prefer a model where we look at windwalker monk from WoD for a satisfying class to play with enough intricacies that still are not unintuitive.
The game doesn't cater to the two button pressers - as only pressing two buttons are going felblade + dblade + nem will be a lower dps throughput than the other specs requiring for actions per minute. But the spec is at least viable as a decent DH player playing that spec will still perform well enough to not be a burden to the raid.

Will he/she top the meters? Probably not - but it gives those players options. I don't know of many builds for other specs where providing a more passive talent build wasn't as forgiving. Usually picking a bad talent is a significant drop in dps.
The problem of DH and this is something that I continue to support, it depends too much on certain talents and if these are not very competitive the whole spec is too negatively affected, without having real alternatives.
This is because base line has no mechanics (DBite, CS, EB on cd, stop) and as if it were an empty shell.
Probably it is something desired and talking about numbers, increased over and over again during the beta and in the first hotfix session after the release of bfa to fill the gap in mechanics and talent not quite up to par.
At this point I would ask myself if this thing should not be rethought by the blizz.
Reading some reviews pre-bfa I read that the dh is a very versatile class thanks to its talents but in reality many choices are forced because of many talents in my opinion are dead from the beginning:

- Demonic Appetite
- Demon Balde
- Insatiable Hunger
- Fel Mastery
- T106 you do not have a choice, FB is an obligatory choice.
- Nemesis
- Momentum

Despite all Havoc currently has found a balance even if very precarious, so I dont think that with 8.1 comes something new also because there are currently other specs that have a higher priority than the dh.
10/09/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Izanna
Man, I really dont know how you feel attacked, all I did was expose my opinion and said that your arguments, not you, were bad. Im not attacking you or looking down on you in any shape or form. Yet you insist im being a jackass while Im trying to reason and be polite with you.

You dont want me to talk about the others? Fine. It is my own opinion all of it, if you choose to ignore all the people that gave valid feedback (and different from mine) during alpha/beta. Im not buying your fight man. You can take it and try to sell it somewhere else. I have nothing against you nor do I think your right to have a different opinion is wrong. So please, stop trying to push me into whatever is that youre trying to do.

Safe travels.
So this is my biggest problem with how you think you debate politely, summed up in your rebuttal to this guy:
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Did you guys even read what I posted at all? its not about the numbers.

First off, you said "the majority of the DH community disagree with you". You're the one making up numbers. Where do you see that it's a "majority of DH players"? The other guy even responded and tried to give some metric of how the DH class forums are quiet which implies (from his point of view) that the majority of DH players are not unhappy as you state. Is it an infallible conclusion? Of course not. But at least he tries to give some sort of proof as to why he thinks that your statement that "the majority of DH players disagree with [him]" is incorrect.

And what was your response to that? "it's not about the numbers." What does that have anything to do with his response? He mentioned that he thinks the spec is fun as well as others in his guild. No where did he state that he's topping the meters and that's the reason the spec is in a good place. He simply stated his opinion that he thinks the spec is fun as others in his guild think the same way too.

And that's exactly my point too.

But from your point of view I guess we're not using reason when we think about what is fun and somehow we're implying that doing decent dps numbers means we're fun.

And that's why your rebuttals have been bad. You reduce our statements down to incorrect statements.


I stated multiple times to check the major DH feedbacks threads from alpha/beta, thats where I'm coming from, but you refuse to acknowledge their existence or the people that gave feedback.

I dont know what more I can say to you. I told you the sources since the very start. I recognize my response to the guy was a bit automatic, but my point still stands. Did you played the alpha/beta? Did you try to make things better? Because thats the only thing Im trying to do. As for the guy who thinks the currently interaction is fun, I respect his opinion and hes entitled to have one. Just like you and me.
Another feedback thread about people getting fatigue from spamming demon's bite:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769657206?page=1#post-2
I much prefer Demon's Bite to the do nothing auto attacking of Demon Blades. Good to have both options be as equal as possible, I think.
10/13/2018 02:40 AMPosted by Diaboliqa
I much prefer Demon's Bite to the do nothing auto attacking of Demon Blades. Good to have both options be as equal as possible, I think.


Its not equal, if we get demon blades we cant take any talent that helps smooth out the fury generation.
Another build and not a single line about DHs. No tuning, no nerfing, no traits, no nothing.

This is suspicious.
10/17/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Izanna
Another build and not a single line about DHs. No tuning, no nerfing, no traits, no nothing.

This is suspicious.
Don't worry... there's "major rotational changes" promised... this is still the PTR for 7.2.5 right?
10/17/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Släshcry
10/17/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Izanna
Another build and not a single line about DHs. No tuning, no nerfing, no traits, no nothing.

This is suspicious.
Don't worry... there's "major rotational changes" promised... this is still the PTR for 7.2.5 right?


Im not liking this absolute silence. I have a bad feeling.
10/17/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Izanna
10/17/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Släshcry
...Don't worry... there's "major rotational changes" promised... this is still the PTR for 7.2.5 right?


Im not liking this absolute silence. I have a bad feeling.
You mean how they stealthed in Chaos Cleave from 25% down to 10% without any PTR testing and just put it out on Live?
10/17/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Släshcry
10/17/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Izanna
...

Im not liking this absolute silence. I have a bad feeling.
You mean how they stealthed in Chaos Cleave from 25% down to 10% without any PTR testing and just put it out on Live?


Yes, i fear for much worse this time.
Hopefully a nerf, this spec trivializes the reason to play most other melee, other than rogue (who also needs a nerf).
They said theyre working on some classes in a deep way, that will most likely be showing in the last phases of ptr. Lets see.
10/19/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Izanna
They said theyre working on some classes in a deep way, that will most likely be showing in the last phases of ptr. Lets see.


Veng may get some small changes, but havoc will likely not be touched in 8.1 with the exception of number changes.
10/22/2018 08:04 PMPosted by Eiji
10/19/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Izanna
They said theyre working on some classes in a deep way, that will most likely be showing in the last phases of ptr. Lets see.


Veng may get some small changes, but havoc will likely not be touched in 8.1 with the exception of number changes.


They are not even mentioning the class existence on patch notes. It worries me.
Honestly, the only the I would like to see changed is putting Demonic Appetite in the second row to synergize with the Demonic Build. Other than that, leave Havoc alone.

Vengeance really only needs two changes too, which is to redesign Demon Spikes to simply reduce physical damage taken by X% for it's duration instead of it's current build which is just a watered down verion of Ironfur.

And secondly to make Soul Barrier baseline.
Was really hoping they would delete nem and replace it with something actually useful and interesting, but PTR notes pretty much confirm no change for 8.1

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