Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
since for some unknown reason there is a post cap i wanna keep it going and i think that we need to voice our frustration at blizzard more so here yall are lets keep the disappointment going
link to first thread-> https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769060102?page=1
Trying to create a constructive discussion I expose my perplexities about the system of the azerite gear.
Given that the azerite system as a concept is not bad, what I did not like are the traits and how these pieces are obtained.
Over the last few weeks I have seen the devs intervene and correct discrepancies that are really embarrassing and this, in my opinion, has been a good sign. I hope that with 8.1 the traits will be more interesting than the current ones.

The drop of the pieces of the azerite instead I found it too low for the importance they have (of course I'm talking about 340+ pieces).
Here I hope that it will intervene or at least it will be clarified in a more precise way.
Speaking of my experience I am feeling a lot of frustration in acquiring these pieces.
Actually I'm using the same chest 340 for almost a month now and I actively do m, m +, raid, war front, etc. and I can not find any up grade.

Currently being able to find pieces of the arerite armor > 340 with the best traits is very difficult almost like playing the lottery.

I agree that the m+ do not release those pieces but the system of the weekly chest needs an upgrade.
idea: the weekly chest always releases a non-azerite piece and an azerite piece.

In addition, what I found really hateful are the Seal of Wartorn Fate.
Ever since it was possible to have them I have never and never ever got a single pieces (azi e non-azi) and this is not acceptable considering also the high price that these Seals have.
idea: 100% chance to drop from the Seal of Wartorn Fate or at least a much higher chance of getting a piece.
At this point it has become clear that the current team knows azurite is a garbage system with too many fundamental problems to make it worth file to divert the necessary resources to fix. BFA is built upon this trash foundation and the burden is going to be shifted to the players to endure this garbage expansion.

I'm hoping the push for Classic WoW at blizzcon will be with the aim to keep this large portion of the player base satisfied until 9.0 and an expansion that is an actual worthy successor to Legion. Basically scrap BFA development other than what is already over halfway complete and begin developing an actual expansion with systems that don't reek of dog feces.
26 pages of negative feedback, I wonder why one of the regulars didn't pop in and extend the post cap on the thread?
09/27/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Hammerator
26 pages of negative feedback, I wonder why one of the regulars didn't pop in and extend the post cap on the thread?


maybe they didnt see it in time? idk i felt like it needed to be extended so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming."

That's because we have several traits that simply do damage in different ways and the only way to know which is best is to sim. Using Gutripper over Dagger In The Back makes literally zero difference to me but I have to sim in order to know which is better. The traits are boring and uninteresting and being forced to sim them because there's no better way to determine the traits DPS value doesn't suddenly make them interesting or fun.

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable.

This would be fine if we could reasonably obtain multiple sets of azerite armor. The problem is that we can't. I'm not going to go from a 385 chest down to a 340 chest for a trait. It's just not going to happen. So what am I forced to do? Reforge or accept a ~1% DPS loss if I use Tradewinds as Frost or Fire. The azerite system is incredibly frustrating because of the scarcity of high ilvl azerite pieces. There's an overwhelming abundance of 340 and below pieces but, beyond that, you have to pray to the RNG gods to get an azerite piece. The obvious way to fix this is to allow azerite pieces to drop from M+. You want people to build multiple sets of azerite armor yet you don't want us to have a way to reliably get azerite armor? What kind of nonsense is that?
09/27/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Hammerator
26 pages of negative feedback, I wonder why one of the regulars didn't pop in and extend the post cap on the thread?


Honestly I'm at the point that I believe they have received plenty of feedback. There is not much else to say. Big daddy Activision pulls the strings. Repair bills through the roof and thousands of gold on azerite reforging. Buy more WoW tokens.
Azerite needs improvement. It’s hardly the worst itemization in the game’s history though. Vanilla is probably the worst. For instance there was barely any Balance druid gear. There was paladin and shaman gear issues as well. I’ll take gear farming over a complex lack of gear any day.

I still think Azerite armor could stand for a simple fix of adding two more choices for each spec to the outer rings.
I saw this on MMO and I had to comment because it's just such a dumb argument:

The Blue posted:

First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on.


That's an awful argument.

When you needed to farm "level 30 dungeons for resist gear" you were level 60 and it was pretty much just a pew pew situation. There was no difficulty. And you knew where to go to target the gear. Furthermore you could also purchase BoE resistance gear from the AH if you had the money which made it not as annoying.

Comparing that to Azerite gear, is honestly either from a place of poor logic or intellectual dishonesty.
"With this most recent round of tuning, we think we've gotten most of the really egregious outliers dialed in, but please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level."

So what your saying is: Please let us know if there are any traits we feel are performing well so you can nerf them into the ground to be crap like the other traits.
(seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear)


Except for the fact that It took 20 minutes to get to Princes and you KNEW it could drop AND you could farm it over an entire day by resetting the instance.

With Azurite, im stuck waiting a week for a loot chest since IT CANNOT DROP FROM THE END CHEST wishing for it to drop from a raid (which in the end may not even be an upgrade) and you are comparing that to Princess/Hydro runs? Really? REALLY?!

And you accuse us of Hyperbole? What a joke.
Bump.
Just gonna repost my comments from another thread about this:

The fact that they acknowledged a core component of the new system was not fun (having to regrind the same traits when you get a higher iLvl item), but that it was so core to the system it can't be changed..

Should've been an indicator at the design stage that this was a poorly designed system that would not be fun.
They "could" fix the azerite drop problem in a simple yet effective way, simply change the weekly chest to 100% 1 random item and 100% 1 random azerite piece. What I don't get is this has been pointed out to them and they do nothing but try to creatively word smash us into giving into their failed design. On beta the weekly chest dropped up to THREE items, it was supposed to be that way on Live, and yet its not.

Now they have the masses clamoring about azerite and the ability to farm it or lack of it really and ONE SIMPLE FIX could make this SOOO much better.

While i do understand the 100% 1 random azerite is not a way to target a single piece I think it's a valuable compromise to the current joke of how it works right now.
From Lore: "Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less."

Wait wait wait. Players are telling you that not being able to switch traits without paying 20k gold is not fun, and serves no gameplay purpose. And you wanna restrict it more?

You are telling me that if I play Prot on my pally, then want to swap and go Holy or Ret for BGs or Arenas, i should be penalized? I should not be able to take the correct traits?

That to me is restricting content. Thats more or less reducing a class to a spec. It also makes no sense.
On making Azerite reforging more difficult instead of easing up- why?

One of the things I miss the most about the older talent tree is being able to make goofy builds that were fun to play but not necessarily "the best". I was hoping this might return with Azerite but the punishing cost of trying something new with my build has proven to be extremely disappointing. Making Azerite reforging prohibitive only encourages me further to sim my best traits on each traits and never experiment.

It seems like this system's entire purpose is to punish the small population of min-maxers at the cost of fun for the rest of us. Who cares if someone reforges their gear five times a day for the best raid/mythic+/PvP performance? What about that is so awful that the only solution is entirely ruin the entire azerite system for another group of players?

RPGs are supposed to have multiple ways for someone to build their character. Please give us back some kind of autonomy over our builds instead of railroading us exclusively into a "Blizzard approved" class build.

As it stands you might as well just remove azerite traits entirely to alleviate frustration.
Posted this on MMO-Champ and wanted to cross post here...Lore's response was PATHETIC!

Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Few things I'd like to comment on here.

First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on.


I remember having to farm for the mats for the Frozen Shadoweave set back in BC....that was a CRAFTED SET with materials I had to FARM to TARGET the gear I wanted. I also remember having to farm shadow resist gear and fire resist gear for Tempest Keep - again, I KNEW where the gear was that I needed. This is the most handwavey way to start this wall of text of a response.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I'll speak to each of your points as best as I can:

Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.


What is he even trying to say here? Does blizz not realize certain classes value certain stats over others and we are targeting them because our rotation(s) feel like crap due to the lack of secondary stats (thanks again for not putting any on azerite gear). Like, I have to stack 3 different types of haste procs just to create a semblance of casting smoothness. It's egregious I have to keep swapping gear around to make sure I have one or two decent haste procs just to make my rotation feel normal. That's not fun or interesting or anything, that's broken.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.


Even if you made traits simplistic such as "this grants 538 haste for 12 seconds when you cast spell and effects" and "this grants 323 mastery, 323 crit and 323 haste for 18 seconds" people would STILL SIM THEM. These two points are not "at odds with each other" and in fact they are mutually exclusive. Irregardless of the gear people will sim, that cannot be changed. What can be changed are the variances and effects of our gear. I would like to be able to maintain other abilities (class baseline ones) with the azerite traits for some serious synergy. Allow some traits to interact with the core abilities of classes to make the rotations and abilities feel INTERESTING. While I like the flat haste and mastery buffs, I like things that change the rotation. As a Destruction lock I actually like 'Bursting Flare' as it changes the rotation up but to maintain it and ensure it stays up is a pain vs other traits, not to mention the buff isn't as good as other passive ones. I want to use them but the other passive options are clear winners. These traits are not fun (oh and the ones that are get nerfed rather than buffing other ones, gg)

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.


lol
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I mentioned the imbalance between traits before, but just to expand on that: that's why we've focused so much effort into tuning Azerite traits over the past few weeks. With this most recent round of tuning, we think we've gotten most of the really egregious outliers dialed in, but please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level.


They have "tuned" traits that were already garbage. I have 0 reason to use Flashpoint - mobs above 80% health are non existent as higher gear levels are achieved. It should be > 80 and < 30 to balance it out. As I mentioned, Bursting Flare for Destruction locks can be fun but managing it vs others is a no brainer. Accelerent seems cool and in theory it works nicely to boost the AoE for Destruction buuuuut when there are not 3 adds it leaves a lot to be desired (this is not going to turn into a Rain of Fire bashing as that spell needs a massive rework). The tuning they did were on garbage traits, they need to bring traits more in line and buff the proc rate / chance and maintenance for a whole lot of azerite traits.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.


I mean, I guess kudos for standing your ground but this flies in the face of OBTAINING THE GEAR WITH THE RIGHT TRAITS that was mentioned at the start of this excuse of a response. Like, ok, sure let's get the pieces we need with the traits we want so we don't have to reforge oh wait I just realized the piece I need is above 340 and therefore I have to wait for RNG upon RNG upon RNG to get what I want - GREAT IDEA.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
And finally, regarding the tuning passes: like I mentioned, we think we've got most of the major outliers dialed in to an acceptable level at this point. There's likely to still be some adjustments here and there, but we don't believe we're going to need another big wave of Azerite trait tuning like you've seen over the last few weeks. To put it another way: if one trait is far and away the best compared to every other option, sure, we should probably do something about that, but we don't expect that to take the form of a widespread tuning pass going forward.


They are so tone deaf to the issues that the playerbase is suffering from. Tuning a trait here or there is not what certain classes need. Touting the azerite gear as a replacement for legendaries, tier and artifact weapons was far too ambitious and ludicrous. Someone should have told them to pump the breaks on that idea because it has sunk like a stone. These traits do not make the rotations interesting nor do they enhance the gameplay. All they do for me is long for a time when I had a balanced class and stats that I could manage myself and be happy with that. Now in between procs of "Overwhelming Power" and "Blood Rite" and "Elemental Whirl" I am just crossing my fingers and hoping that the proc will happen again otherwise it's just stagnant and sluggish.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Also, to Ion's comment about new traits being introduced: he was referring to new traits on new gear added in new content, with higher item level, that replaces your old gear entirely. We're not planning to add in new traits to existing items, so don't worry about holding onto old Azerite pieces just in case their traits change.


Oh, that's great. That doesn't solve the issue of me having 9 chest pieces, 7 headpieces and 3 shoulders though at the moment, does it?

I swear this whole response was a giant middle finger to the players. blizzard has no clue what they are doing and they are bringing us down with them.
Having to use two different azerite helmets that have a 45 item level difference in single target versus AOE scenarios is not fun. The fact that there is such a massive disparity in the trait value from one form of content to the next is just disappointing.

Not having any way to target 1 piece of azerite gear out of a pool of 18, with an overall loot pool of all items amounting to 93 (exclusively from dungeons) on this character alone. 1 chance per week to have a ~1% chance of getting an azerite piece that might be an upgrade. Or just to have a terrible trait and not be worth using at all even if it's 360+ versus my 340's.

This system is not fun. It's not engaging. It's just a massive letdown compared to what we've had in previous expansions.
09/27/2018 07:31 AMPosted by Bullwinkie
At this point it has become clear that the current team knows azurite is a garbage system with too many fundamental problems to make it worth file to divert the necessary resources to fix. BFA is built upon this trash foundation and the burden is going to be shifted to the players to endure this garbage expansion.


This. The conspiracy theories surrounding the 6 month subscription deal don't sound as far fetched after reading Lore's post. Same in regards to the virtual ticket.

M+ NEEDS to drop azerite gear, this is indisputable, it has to happen. Azerite traits need to become more interesting, if their performance is all roughly the same, what is even the point of having the system in the first place? Good to know they acknowledge the problem, but won't do a single damn thing about it. Take it or leave it.

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