How has "Add-Ons" killed this game?

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If you're defining "necessary" as "you must have this in order to successfully complete the encounter", then no, they are definitely not "necessary" in that context. But then, neither are feasts, or runes, or potions, or flasks. Boss mods let you focus more on the important parts of the fight, which translates into better overall performance, and that has the same benefit as all those other relatively small incremental bonuses to performance. And those add up, and they definitively matter. You're holding your raid back just as much by not having DBM as you would be by not using a pre-pot, or not using expensive food, etc.

That would be the definition of necessary. If something is a necessity then it is a requirement to complete a function, such as consumption of nutrients and water is a necessity to live. Addons are like multi-vitamins. You don't need them but they may provide some benefit or shore up where you have deficiencies.

Your argument of holding back the raid I think is reasonably justifiable as you are technically not taking advantage of all the potential handicaps available to you, and in Mythic cutting edge, yeah you are probably hurting yourself and your team.

I wouldn't quite say it's the same as not using the correct consumables provided to you however, simply as they are a function of the game as opposed to a 3rd party program.

I can confidently say that without addons you can still perform above average at least up to Heroic content without the use of addons and that includes outperforming those who do use and rely on addons.

Noticed the statement I bolded a when I took another read. I'd actually argue the opposite. Boss mods allow you to focus less on the important parts of the encounter (mechanics) in favour of allowing more effort to be spent upkeeping your rotation to it's full potential. Same conclusion of increased performance, just different source.

Edit:
10/04/2018 06:24 PMPosted by Blightcaller
No, addons saved this game, Blizzard is so lazy that you need a lot of addons to play this game properly.

Elaborate please? Blizzard has put a lot of effort into making mechanics in particular in raids and dungeons more visible reducing the dependency on addons.
I have a friend who uses addons to tell him exactly what button to press next. He's obviously way better at fight mechanics than me. But I would rather suck than play the same game he is playing.
10/04/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Xaedys
10/04/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Ooboohooboo
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A perfectly independent and functional mentality that doesn't require dependency on external programs to make up for lack of skill.


Says a dude without a single raid feat of strength or notable PvP achievements. If addons are just "making up for lack of skill", why aren't you trashing the hardest of endgame content?

And DBM is mandatory at the mythic raiding level. Are you suggesting that mythic raiding guilds, including all those world-first guilds, are actually terrible players and just being propped up by lack of skill? If so, why aren't they being beaten by people with skill?


Because I have not earned those achievements by my own merit.

I do not doubt that those who are skilled use add ons to further enhance their performance in order to get world first. I am suggesting that between those who are able to achieve something without add ons versus with add ons, the former obtains more sense of accomplishment.
10/04/2018 09:32 PMPosted by Siyara
10/04/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Repopriesto
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omg with this holier-than-thou attitude

how the hell do addons "play for you"

it can give you more information... in a more effective display

but it does not PLAY for you that is ridiculous


When an addon tells you to do this, run away, go there, use a defensive, etc., it is playing the game for you. Sure, it's not hitting the buttons for you, but it's like mommy is there holding your hand guiding you through the maze.

Go youtube "Vex Thal." Or even better, "Plane of Fear Break In" and make sure the clip is from before 2002, when Plane of Fear was the unbelievably terrifying place that it was. A place so utterly unforgiving that you didn't run that raid with your best gear. You ran it with your second-best gear, because there was a very real chance that you could PERMANENTLY LOSE anything you took into the raid with you.

Then there was the Temple of Veeshan, a raid that HAD NO EXIT. The only way out was to clear the raid and leave through a portal behind the final boss. You couldn't gate (hearth) or portal out, and if you died, you resurrected inside the zone. Aaaand, you were naked until you got back to your corpse, which might be behind trash that could 1-shot you from 50 yards away. If you went in, you either beat the raid, or you effectively LOST YOUR CHARACTER, trapped in the zone until you either beat the raid or you were rescued by another raid (the zone was not instanced) and tagged along with them as they got you out.

We did those things without addons, with 71 other people with us, and without voice chat.

So yes, I am rather scornful of WoW "raiders." You have no idea, whippersnapper, what a real raid is, what REAL teamwork is, and in that respect I almost feel sorry for you.


So? One game is not another. You're making too big of a deal about it, if you lose the character oh well you know that going in. That's how the game works.
You guys love making things harder for the sake of saying you did it the hard way. I've always found that interesting, I personally find my enjoyment in figuring out ways to make difficult tasks easier.
10/04/2018 09:29 PMPosted by Xaedys
10/04/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Siyara
For everyone saying that raiding is impossible without addons, might I direct you to this quaint little game called Everquest.


Don't think anyone has said raiding is impossible without addons. Just that refusing to use addons, particularly when it's just for your own pride (or for your own ignorance and fear of them), is hampering your raid group in the same way that refusing to flask or use buff food would. It's clearly possible to clear raids, and even on mythic, without addons, but it's also increasing the difficulty for no rational reason. And refusing to use them doesn't make you "more skilled", any more than killing a boss without a flask makes you more skilled.

10/04/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Siyara
I've said it before I'll say it again, I would pay IRL money and laugh my @$$ off to watch the average mythic guild take on Vex Thal, or Ssra, or CoA, or Mayong Mistmoore, or the HARDEST raid ever conceived in any game, the Plane of Fear, in expansion-current level and gear. I'd bet they wouldn't even get past the courtyard of Vex Thal, or past the entry chamber in Ssra, or even manage to break into the Plane of Fear.


Such a statement might actually have meaning if it weren't coming from a character that hasn't killed a boss above LFR in at least 3 expansions.


So long as it is in game, I am ok with min maxing.

Aside from cheapening the feeling of accomplishment, using outsourced combat addons to increase raiding or pvp performance is akin to using aimbot in FPS games.
10/04/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Discrete
You guys love making things harder for the sake of saying you did it the hard way. I've always found that interesting, I personally find my enjoyment in figuring out ways to make difficult tasks easier.


Which is a good sentiment regarding quality of life stuff.

In terms of combat, it just cheapens the overall experience for me and many like minded others. Very much like Aimbot in FPS games except Blizzard made it legal.
10/04/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Sonicgott
Addons feel mandatory, like HealBot and DBM/BigWigs.


Mandatory for what, though?
10/04/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Siyara
For everyone saying that raiding is impossible without addons, might I direct you to this quaint little game called Everquest.

EQ had no addons, yet the raids there are considerably harder than in WoW. Heck, the TRASH in EQ was more dangerous than boss mobs in WoW. And we had no addons to do it. Mind that this was even before voice chat became a thing, so raid orders were given by typing.

So, imagine if you will a raid of 72 people executing exceptionally difficult raid mechanics using nothing but text commands and their own skills and experience. No Discord, no Vent, no DBM, no nothing. Just your own skills. We did it then, you could do it now...but you don't want to.

I've said it before I'll say it again, I would pay IRL money and laugh my @$$ off to watch the average mythic guild take on Vex Thal, or Ssra, or CoA, or Mayong Mistmoore, or the HARDEST raid ever conceived in any game, the Plane of Fear, in expansion-current level and gear. I'd bet they wouldn't even get past the courtyard of Vex Thal, or past the entry chamber in Ssra, or even manage to break into the Plane of Fear.

When you rely on an addon to do your playing for you, you forget how to play yourself.


My mmo journey began with EQ. I remember 8 hour tov raids where I got nothing.

Those games weren't fun. Im glad you found those games fun, but there is a reason Vangard failed. People don't want those experiences.

Wows success can literally be placed solely on the shoulders of Furor showing us beta footage and explaining how EQ literally designed unbeatable encounters (rathe council) to throttle progression, then releasing hotfixes at specific guilds raid times to ensure there preferable raid guild (afterlife) got the world first.

EQ was and is a !@#$ game. Invoking its name as a "I remember when" is embarrassing.
10/04/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Siyara
For everyone saying that raiding is impossible without addons, might I direct you to this quaint little game called Everquest.

EQ had no addons, yet the raids there are considerably harder than in WoW. Heck, the TRASH in EQ was more dangerous than boss mobs in WoW. And we had no addons to do it. Mind that this was even before voice chat became a thing, so raid orders were given by typing.

So, imagine if you will a raid of 72 people executing exceptionally difficult raid mechanics using nothing but text commands and their own skills and experience. No Discord, no Vent, no DBM, no nothing. Just your own skills. We did it then, you could do it now...but you don't want to.

I've said it before I'll say it again, I would pay IRL money and laugh my @$$ off to watch the average mythic guild take on Vex Thal, or Ssra, or CoA, or Mayong Mistmoore, or the HARDEST raid ever conceived in any game, the Plane of Fear, in expansion-current level and gear. I'd bet they wouldn't even get past the courtyard of Vex Thal, or past the entry chamber in Ssra, or even manage to break into the Plane of Fear.

When you rely on an addon to do your playing for you, you forget how to play yourself.


Also, I played these raids just as you did. The raid mechanics are nothing, so stop confabulating.
10/04/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Highborne
Custom UI add-ons has kept me playing. Without them, I probably wouldn't have stuck around past Vanilla. I'm surprised Blizzard hasn't made a lot of the most variants a build-it thing

One of the improvements they could have made is to simply allow default locations to be manipulated by the individual players. Then I'd have no use for SexyMap, Bartender, Carbonite, etc. It's the rigidity in where things are displayed on the screen that drives me to add-ons, not any perceived advantage in playing the game.

How has "add-ons" killed this game for you?


I am of the personal view that basic functions should just come naturally in a game. I shouldn't need an addon to mark a location on a map to direct people where to go...that's dumb.
...I'm curious to know what you think this game would be like without being able to customize your experience (addons)...

I can't imagine honestly...do you want everyone to play the exact same way? lol
10/05/2018 12:33 AMPosted by Elae
How has "add-ons" killed this game for you?
I am of the personal view that basic functions should just come naturally in a game. I shouldn't need an addon to mark a location on a map to direct people where to go...that's dumb.

I can somewhat agree with that. Then I think back on my military life and remember that I was able to mark discovered features that weren't on the map I was issued, so I (or anyone coming later) could find them again. With the exception of terrain reveals or city/village names being visible after "exploring" an area, you can't customize the map to show where those bears were found, or that waterfall, or the almost hidden path .... So an add-on that lets me do that can be quite useful. (Don't say third party sites; your premise is in-game, and I hate having to minimize the screen and go to a third-party website to get information that should be available in-game.)

Then there's the questing problem. "Find the [something something] north of [somewhere]" doesn't work too well when you're standing at Crossroads. North of Crossroads covers a lot of ground and can lead you anywhere -- into Ashenvale, Azshara, Stonetalon Mountains, Darkshore. "North" includes WNW, NW, N, NE, and ENE. That's a lot of territory. An add-on that lets me narrow that to NW, N, NE (or even just NE) makes the journey to find that [something something] a bit more palatable. It doesn't need to show me EXACTLY where [something something] is, but I should be able to get somewhere in the ballpark so I can find other clues (quests? NPCs? enemies?) that let me know I'm headed in the right direction.

Basic functions, indeed, SHOULD come naturally in a game. However, map reading and marking the map (basic functions for "exploring") aren't provided by Blizzard. And directions from quest givers are more like what you'd get from a backwoods hayseed in a middle America wide space in the road -- "Go on down this hyear road till you come to Ledbetter's house, then go left until you find Doc Brown's barn ..... " That's where I say hello to my little friends, add-ons.
The only people who say add-ons have killed the game usually fall into two camps: those who don't use them or know how to use them and feel it's unfair, and 3 or 4 very strange people who feel DBM is cheating.
10/05/2018 04:12 AMPosted by Yayayayayaya
The only people who say add-ons have killed the game usually fall into two camps: those who don't use them or know how to use them and feel it's unfair, and 3 or 4 very strange people who feel DBM is cheating.


They think it is cheating but if they used it they would still be in LFR wondering how people are so much better than they are.
10/04/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Ythisens
10/04/2018 02:08 PMPosted by Snowfox
You see here in GD, everything in the set of all things, has killed WoW.

Please press F to pay respects.

F
10/04/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Starlagosa
I love my add ons.
:)


*heavy breathing *
I love your addons too
I use like 6 Addis’s. While most of them do. I thing for me outside a raid.

You don’t need all the addons. Only some that actually help you out. The bag addon downloaded it once and turned it off. It simply wasn’t doing it for me since I don’t mind the default ui.

Same goes stuff like the ah addons.
Save for one or two (GTFO and DBM are the ones that come to my head right now, though I might have other ones), all the addons I have installed are for convenient Quality-of-Life features the game doesn't have. I'm thinking of things like:
- Automatically repairing items when talking to a NPC that can repair
- Being able to see which Azerite powers an item has without opening the Azerite screen
- See all bags as if they were one
- See how many of each item I have on each of my characters
- Selecting items to disenchant faster
- See if I lack a pet of a certain type/rarity/level when engaging a wild pet battle
- See all available World Quests and rewards in a list format
- See all available quests in the map (and not just the story-relevant ones)
- See all material nodes in the map that were harvested at least once
- Being able to set waypoints in the map

And a few others I might miss. When it comes to User Experience, add-ons can't "kill" anything. Now, when you go to things like GTFO, DBM or WeakAuras, it can lower the required skill to go to serious encounters... but not too much for them to be too easy to enjoy.

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