The abysmal prospect for forsaken lore

Story Forum
Prev 1 6 7 8 Next
10/01/2018 02:47 PMPosted by Droité
Zelling himself is interesting, he's a voluntary Forsaken ... which opens up avenues for the continuation of their race beyond simply killing the living (they can turn the willing, the sick and the dying who are looking for an alternative).


I had a similar thought. Rather than just look to raise the dead and deal with their issues a la Captain Stone (although they should totally still do this), have some agents of the Forsaken like Voss covertly approach the sick, desperate, those with regrets over what they were unable to accomplish in life - or even those whose life is miserable - and offer them another way.

Some might be like Zelling and be trying to look out for their families after their death, a "noble" Forsaken. Others might be societal outcasts and really only care about the chance to settle whatever grudges they accumulated in life: the "bitter" Forsaken. Still others might have a goal or a life's work they couldn't bear to see go unfinished or abandoned: the "driven" Forsaken.

You get interesting, non-Sylvanas characters. You get to revive the Forsaken ideology of free will; each new Forsaken has their own reasons for turning, and some might not care to be part of Forsaken society at first, but they might eventually gravitate there after they experience the scorn of the living. You still can even have that harder, darker edge to the Forsaken, literally made up of the outcasts and outliers of society, pursuing their pet projects with a maniacal fervor.

If there's a way out of this "war on hope and life" nonsense, I think this is it: the Forsaken as the second chance for the desperate and regretful.
10/01/2018 02:24 PMPosted by Éamon
10/01/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Hackbrew
As often as people cite BtS for the travesty it did to the Forsaken (me included) it also gave us some of the most recent evidence that Sylvanas does genuinely care about the Forsaken as people.

The problem is that it often gets overshadowed by everything else in the book.

Unfortunately, the book makes Sylvanas' affection towards the Forsaken seem very yandere, i.e., you will love her back or else.


Very true. It is not a very healthy relationship. Really, they could all use a good dose of therapy.

Sylvanas's relationship with the Forsaken largely gets hand-waved away as purely selfish, with the Forsaken only being seen as tools by her. And this really isn't true.

Sylvanas genuinely cares for the Forsaken and wants to see them succeed. However, she believes only SHE knows what's best for them, and isn't shy about doing what she perceives as necessary, even if it means harming the few to "benefit" the most.

It's not nice. It's not healthy. But nothing about the Forsaken is nice and healthy.
10/01/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Detrik
Elsie Benten and all of the human and forsaken characters from the Gathering were interesting. Would have been interesting to see some sympathetic characters (Ol Emma/her sons, Philia and her father, the gold shire inn dude and Elise) on opposing factions having to deal with a world at war.

Shame Sylvanas chose to gun them down.

It's funny--it seems like the Desolate Council are more popular with Alliance players than Horde.
10/01/2018 05:10 PMPosted by Zuleika
10/01/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Detrik
Elsie Benten and all of the human and forsaken characters from the Gathering were interesting. Would have been interesting to see some sympathetic characters (Ol Emma/her sons, Philia and her father, the gold shire inn dude and Elise) on opposing factions having to deal with a world at war.

Shame Sylvanas chose to gun them down.

It's funny--it seems like the Desolate Council are more popular with Alliance players than Horde.


they make the most sense for Forsaken to you know have a democratic rule since there kinda based on self determination. That or no rule, no rule would have been a reallllllly good feature of the forsaken, alas the race with the closest thing to having no ruling body are the Goblins, Gallywix does not even seem to be taken as a true racial leader to the horde as well as Goblins.
10/01/2018 05:10 PMPosted by Zuleika
10/01/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Detrik
Elsie Benten and all of the human and forsaken characters from the Gathering were interesting. Would have been interesting to see some sympathetic characters (Ol Emma/her sons, Philia and her father, the gold shire inn dude and Elise) on opposing factions having to deal with a world at war.

Shame Sylvanas chose to gun them down.

It's funny--it seems like the Desolate Council are more popular with Alliance players than Horde.


Well, the whole reason they were created was to make Sylvanas look bad, so... yeah, obviously.
10/01/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Jellex
10/01/2018 02:47 PMPosted by Droité
Zelling himself is interesting, he's a voluntary Forsaken ... which opens up avenues for the continuation of their race beyond simply killing the living (they can turn the willing, the sick and the dying who are looking for an alternative).


I had a similar thought. Rather than just look to raise the dead and deal with their issues a la Captain Stone (although they should totally still do this), have some agents of the Forsaken like Voss covertly approach the sick, desperate, those with regrets over what they were unable to accomplish in life - or even those whose life is miserable - and offer them another way.

Some might be like Zelling and be trying to look out for their families after their death, a "noble" Forsaken. Others might be societal outcasts and really only care about the chance to settle whatever grudges they accumulated in life: the "bitter" Forsaken. Still others might have a goal or a life's work they couldn't bear to see go unfinished or abandoned: the "driven" Forsaken.

You get interesting, non-Sylvanas characters. You get to revive the Forsaken ideology of free will; each new Forsaken has their own reasons for turning, and some might not care to be part of Forsaken society at first, but they might eventually gravitate there after they experience the scorn of the living. You still can even have that harder, darker edge to the Forsaken, literally made up of the outcasts and outliers of society, pursuing their pet projects with a maniacal fervor.

If there's a way out of this "war on hope and life" nonsense, I think this is it: the Forsaken as the second chance for the desperate and regretful.


This is a great idea.
Lillian Voss has some interesting dialog in the quest line she is involved in.

To paraphrase her line of reasoning for joining with the forsaken after hating them and herself for so long is that humans out right hate them. And she is interested in helping other forsaken come to terms with their new "life".

This doesn't change things. With people thinking aylvanas is evil. (I still think the player base is plays that up too much.)

anyway we haven't even gotten our first big update yet. I'm still willing to bet that.

Another thing I am curious about.
Perhaps a deeper modivation for sylvanas is knowing how horrible death is. Undeath is torment, bit death is worse.

I don't know just a thought.
... I want Tehd, Lilian, and Zelling to become huge deals.

I want some of the Night Elves to become big deals.

I want Alexei Barov to join the Forsaken in a new Desolate Council after the Traitor Warchief is deposed.


Okay, get this. The sister of ARTHAS (remember him?!?!), dies (in a book) to the banshee uh I mean LICH QUEEN because she was just too nice and wanted to hug people and reunite sad families, then a space alien naaru raises her as LIGHT un...dead? Biggest of deals coming to a story near you


This is kind of a derailment, but how does the Naaru even manage that when they couldn’t help Bridenbrad in Northrend?
10/02/2018 02:11 AMPosted by Farrar
This is kind of a derailment, but how does the Naaru even manage that when they couldn’t help Bridenbrad in Northrend?


https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Boon_of_A%27dal

We specifically requested that he not attain the corruption of Undeath so the Naaru killed him and took him to it's paradise rather than Lightforge him out of the Lich King's control.

The only way the guy was going to live was as a Lightforged Undead(no thanks to the incurable Plague) and since we didn't want him as Undead...
09/28/2018 04:52 PMPosted by Reignac
They revolve too much around Sylvanas.


They pretty much only exist as a race because of Sylvanas though. Without her they would either have been forced back into the scourge once Arthas became the lich King or would've been killed off by the alliance, Scarlett crusade, or blood elves. Not to mention the lack of Valkyr to create more.
I wouldn't worry too much about losing Undercity.

Their new city in the World Stump is going to be glorious!
10/02/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Yvenathilm
The only way the guy was going to live was as a Lightforged Undead(no thanks to the incurable Plague) and since we didn't want him as Undead...
Let's not pretend Lightforged Undead was even a thought in someone's head back in Wrath.
I like things to become chaotic and norms challenged in story so im down for a Forsaken civil war. I've always felt my character saw it as a curse and never liked forcing it upon others anyway.

Although I guess if Forsaken saw it like that they wouldn't be a race anymore huh
10/02/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Yvenathilm
We specifically requested that he not attain the corruption of Undeath so the Naaru killed him and took him to it's paradise

Yeah, but now that the princess of Lordaeron is a lightforged undead, suddenly it's not "corruption" anymore.

10/03/2018 06:17 AMPosted by Vespero
Let's not pretend Lightforged Undead was even a thought in someone's head back in Wrath.

This.
10/01/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Jellex
Rather than just look to raise the dead and deal with their issues a la Captain Stone (although they should totally still do this), have some agents of the Forsaken like Voss covertly approach the sick, desperate, those with regrets over what they were unable to accomplish in life - or even those whose life is miserable - and offer them another way.

I've advocated for something similar for a while. There are a whole lot of interesting twists you could place on it. Here's one idea inspired by Terry Pratchett's Discworld series:

Have the Forsaken be the foremost experts in non-magical medical research. Healing magic canonically isn't very comfortable for them, so it would make sense for them to research other methods of repair. Then you can canonically say that magical healing is too expensive for most normal people (which you should probably have anyway for plot's sake).

Have Forsaken agents offer FREE* healthcare to interested mortals!

*all costs are waived provided patients are willing to sign an affidavit saying they are willing to be raised as Forsaken after death or are willing to surrender custody of their corpse and its material components to the Forsaken upon natural death. Natural death is herein defined as a cessation of living bodily functions precipitated by events unrelated to Forsaken activity.
10/03/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Éamon
10/01/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Jellex
Rather than just look to raise the dead and deal with their issues a la Captain Stone (although they should totally still do this), have some agents of the Forsaken like Voss covertly approach the sick, desperate, those with regrets over what they were unable to accomplish in life - or even those whose life is miserable - and offer them another way.

I've advocated for something similar for a while. There are a whole lot of interesting twists you could place on it. Here's one idea inspired by Terry Pratchett's Discworld series:

Have the Forsaken be the foremost experts in non-magical medical research. Healing magic canonically isn't very comfortable for them, so it would make sense for them to research other methods of repair. Then you can canonically say that magical healing is too expensive for most normal people (which you should probably have anyway for plot's sake).

Have Forsaken agents offer FREE* healthcare to interested mortals!

*all costs are waived provided patients are willing to sign an affidavit saying they are willing to be raised as Forsaken after death or are willing to surrender custody of their corpse and its material components to the Forsaken upon natural death. Natural death is herein defined as a cessation of living bodily functions precipitated by events unrelated to Forsaken activity.


So a less evil version of American Healthcare,

....

I'M SORRY, I'M SORRY, I COULDN'T HELP IT!
10/03/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Éamon
10/01/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Jellex
Rather than just look to raise the dead and deal with their issues a la Captain Stone (although they should totally still do this), have some agents of the Forsaken like Voss covertly approach the sick, desperate, those with regrets over what they were unable to accomplish in life - or even those whose life is miserable - and offer them another way.

I've advocated for something similar for a while. There are a whole lot of interesting twists you could place on it. Here's one idea inspired by Terry Pratchett's Discworld series:

Have the Forsaken be the foremost experts in non-magical medical research. Healing magic canonically isn't very comfortable for them, so it would make sense for them to research other methods of repair. Then you can canonically say that magical healing is too expensive for most normal people (which you should probably have anyway for plot's sake).

Have Forsaken agents offer FREE* healthcare to interested mortals!

*all costs are waived provided patients are willing to sign an affidavit saying they are willing to be raised as Forsaken after death or are willing to surrender custody of their corpse and its material components to the Forsaken upon natural death. Natural death is herein defined as a cessation of living bodily functions precipitated by events unrelated to Forsaken activity.


Honestly, they already -are- the leaders of non-magical medicine, at least from what threadbare lore we have. Forsaken in Vanilla had trauma surgeons, and even now they have chemists, apothecaries, and even their own version of Psychlogists.

Much of the surgeries to reattach limbs is done through mundane means, and I seem to recall that a Forsaken even have their own embalming fluids and other treatments developed that are unique to corpses.

In the Ararthi warfront we even seen the Forsaken manning the first aid station.

Meanwhile... no other race really has much in the way of healers aside from magic and first aid trainers.
Sylvanas has a tight stranglehold on the forsaken lore as is. Killing her might actually free up the forsaken to develop lore outside of a cult of personality.

At least, I would say that if I didn't get the feeling that the forsaken are either getting lightforged undead Calia or Nathanos.
Why do people keep making it seem like Sylvanas is the only cult of personality? Literally every faction is the exact same with maybe the sole exception being the orcs in that they NEVER question their racial leader. Every race will dogmatically follow their racial leaders orders to the death with no dispute, they do not question, they do not deviate. There's no like "Anduin dissenter" quests among the humans, no human being questions Anduin's grand kinglyship, despite the fact he drags them off to wars without much to show for it. The Goblins don't rebel against Gallywix in spite of all the !@#$ he's pulled and the fact they could likely get a leader that cares about them at least a smidgeon. And so on. There's no real dissent or questioning in any race, they're all drones who mindlessly follow their leaders unless they get villain batted like Fanral or Putress.
10/03/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Tråpstar
Why do people keep making it seem like Sylvanas is the only cult of personality? Literally every faction is the exact same with maybe the sole exception being the orcs in that they NEVER question their racial leader.


motivated reasoning

id like to be charitable but that's really all it is
10/03/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Tråpstar
Why do people keep making it seem like Sylvanas is the only cult of personality? Literally every faction is the exact same with maybe the sole exception being the orcs in that they NEVER question their racial leader. Every race will dogmatically follow their racial leaders orders to the death with no dispute, they do not question, they do not deviate. There's no like "Anduin dissenter" quests among the humans, no human being questions Anduin's grand kinglyship, despite the fact he drags them off to wars without much to show for it. The Goblins don't rebel against Gallywix in spite of all the !@#$ he's pulled and the fact they could likely get a leader that cares about them at least a smidgeon. And so on. There's no real dissent or questioning in any race, they're all drones who mindlessly follow their leaders unless they get villain batted like Fanral or Putress.


Dark Lady watch over you

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum