MM Hunter PTR 8.1 updates.

Hunter
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so "Change is scary" but we're better off in arena for sure... RBGs/PvE remains to be seen. We may be more well rounded and consistent!
^^^^^
sounds about right if looking at the current changes in place.
Better in arena is relative. MM was the absolute worst spec in the game in arena by a long ways.
I've been on the PTR testing this whole thing out. From a PvE perspective MM will be utterly useless if things remain this way. Our Steady Aim build is dead. There is nothing to replace it's damage potential. The rotation is actually much more interesting but the numbers just aren't there. These changes and the talents and traits you will need to take with it are about a 20% damage loss.

Hopefully there are more changes to come to compensate us for the massive amount of damage we just lost.

For PvP, there are some good things here. Damage is still going to take a hit and if this is it we are still not viable in the arena. The bottom line is AiS still hits like a wet noodle without taking advantage of the old LS and traits.
10/18/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Periculum
Going to respectfully disagree. As was stated earlier, we will sit there and stack rapidfire azerite traits instead of steady aim, and spam arcane shot to get rapidfire back.
A few things.

First, this is speculation. There is no math, logs, or simulations (that I have seen) to support this claim (fear).

Second, I am completely ok with Azerite Traits changing up gameplay, as long as there are reasonable options between different types of gameplay. There can be (and will be) a "best" one, but as long as the difference between best and others is reasonably small, that's a win.

Third, even if maximizing Rapid Fire does become the new "way to play", you still must cast Steady Shot to cast those Arcanes, and you will almost certainly still want to cast Aimed Shot on CD, because it does substantially more DPF and DPCT than Arcane (or two Arcanes).


First, this is speculation. There is no math, logs, or simulations (that I have seen) to support this claim (fear).

Third, even if maximizing Rapid Fire does become the new "way to play", you still must cast Steady Shot to cast those Arcanes, and you will almost certainly still want to cast Aimed Shot on CD, because it does substantially more DPF and DPCT than Arcane (or two Arcanes).


This is all factually incorrect as I've been testing it for an hour or so now. Two arcane shots are superior to one Aimed Shot between 80 and 20%. It is absolutely worth casting while execute is up. Outside of that. Nope.
Feel free to test it yourself if the server comes back up. Seems to be down at the moment.
I've been trying to get the ptr to work for days now, but I soft disconnect 5 seconds in each time... like the dc where the client lets you run around in the world still, but you can't do anything.
10/18/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Gunshy
Feel free to test it yourself if the server comes back up. Seems to be down at the moment.


Did you try Crit/haste stat priority?

How about focused fire artifact trait vs arcane flurry?
10/18/2018 03:25 PMPosted by Kølach
10/18/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Gunshy
Feel free to test it yourself if the server comes back up. Seems to be down at the moment.


Did you try Crit/haste stat priority?

How about focused fire artifact trait vs arcane flurry?


Spent most of my time with two FF traits and one flurry trait. Far from ideal I'm sure but all I have to test. I was able to push up to about 27% crit and 15% haste in my testing. Numbers were waaaay down from my 3x Steady Aim build.

I'm totally willing to admit 1 hour isn't enough time. I'm decent when it comes to PvE and I left that testing informing my guild that I may need to reroll if this stays the way it is. I refuse to play BM and we have too many melee for SV.

Either way, please test it yourself if you get a chance. I could be missing something I'm sure.
The change to lethal shot sucks. We dont even use Rapid Fire atm... what're we gunna use in its' place, Double Tap? disappointing nerf.

All i see out of the arcane shot changes is a nerf...as we dont use it outside of Precise Shots.

Change to explosive shot is great. Might actually use that in a dungeon situation now. Volley...unlikely. Specially with the dmg nerf.

Multi shot buff is nice, though unless they reduce it to 2 targets, and fix the weird issue it has with NOT HITTING 360 DEGREES AROUND THE TARGET...our AoE will still have issues.
10/18/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Gunshy
Two arcane shots are superior to one Aimed Shot between 80 and 20%.
Of course the real proof is in testing, which I will do as soon as my client reinstall is complete, but the numbers do not support this claim.

This is what the numbers say (note, these are relative numbers. actual numbers will be multiplied by your AP):

Base

Arcane Shot
-- Damage: 60
-- Cast time: 1.5
-- Focus: 15

Aimed Shot
-- Damage: 207
-- Cast time: 2.5
-- Focus: 30

Effective comparision

Against Boss Mob armor (0.7 multiplier)

Two Arcanes:
-- Damage: 120
-- Cast time: 3.0
-- Focus: 30

DPCT: 40.0
DPF: 4.0

Aimed Shot:
-- Damage: 207 * 0.7 = 145
-- Cast time: 2.5
-- Focus: 30

DPCT: 58 (45% more)
DPF: 4.83 (20% more)

If you add in Precise Shots and assume 1.5 Precise Shots / Aimed
Damage: 145 (Aimed) + 1.5 * 1.75 * 60 = 303
Cast Time: 2.5 + 1.5 * 1.5 = 4.75
Focus: 30 + 15 * 1.5 = 52.5

DPCT: 64 (59% more than two arcanes)
DPF: 5.8 (44% more)

So unless something wonky is happening, or the numbers as listed are incorrect, it is difficult for me to take you at your word (actually, its impossible, but that's just how I'm built). If you provide logs, or even actual numbers, perhaps we can get to the bottom of the discrepancy.

When my PTR client is working, I will test it myself.
Some nice changes so far, mixing up our rotation is a good thing for the long-term health of the spec. Even with the minor buffs to Arcane and Multi-Shot, still looks like we'll be losing more damage from our Aimed Shots (with Lethal Shots change).

Three minor requests and a question for the devs:

1. Liking the change to Explosive Shot talent for the most part. Can we get rid of the 3 second delay in damage and just use the existing rocket animation with it's travel time instead? Have it explode on contact. Simple, beautiful, boom!

2. With the loss of damage on Aimed Shot (Lethal Shot crits), can we get Aimed Shot's cast time reduced to say 2.25 seconds baseline?

3. Trick Shots really needs to activate from 2 targets, not three please.

Q. On the PTR, Aimed Shot seems to have lost it's 50% damage bonus on targets you have not damaged yet. Is this intended? Hurts damage potential alot.

Thanks.
10/18/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Masoschism
10/18/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Periculum
Going to respectfully disagree. As was stated earlier, we will sit there and stack rapidfire azerite traits instead of steady aim, and spam arcane shot to get rapidfire back.
A few things.

First, this is speculation. There is no math, logs, or simulations (that I have seen) to support this claim (fear).

Second, I am completely ok with Azerite Traits changing up gameplay, as long as there are reasonable options between different types of gameplay. There can be (and will be) a "best" one, but as long as the difference between best and others is reasonably small, that's a win.

Third, even if maximizing Rapid Fire does become the new "way to play", you still must cast Steady Shot to cast those Arcanes, and you will almost certainly still want to cast Aimed Shot on CD, because it does substantially more DPF and DPCT than Arcane (or two Arcanes).


You are correct, this is in fact speculation. I have played a shaman since the beginning of the game, have gone through the various phases, and seen what their reworkings can yield to know that I should rightfully be irritated that the build I enjoyed playing will either be A) gutted into insignificance, or B) completely removed. I personally enjoyed the steady aim build, as I felt it required superior positioning / skills to properly execute in a BG - you have a severe lack of defensives / heals as a hunter, and as such it's either burn or be burned. If melee are able to run through you, you are not getting that aimed shot off. If they are able to get on you, it's even harder. I enjoy using tricks and traps, gliders, potions, et cetera to gain an advantage and take down opponents. I personally did not mind the stand-still state of marksman - as stated, I've gotten used to the turret style damage dealings of shadow and elemental and know how to operate such a class.

What bugs me is that instead of having the option of using the Steady Aim build, it will be destroyed in favor of a more mobile situation that will be the complete opposite of why I even started my hunter years ago: originally created because I enjoyed the idea of holding the Frostwolf towers in original Alterac Valley, with all the NPCS, and shooting people while channeling Volley when it became a thing into large groups. With the current talent set up and gearing set up I have on my hunter (his name is Sleyth, if you care to armory him), I was able to do this. With the change to aimed shot damage and sniper shot's range duration, this will be a thing of the past.

I would personally rather see each column support a specific "build", if you will, and have the option of either being a less bursty yet more mobile run-and-gun spec or a very stationary yet high burst damage output sniper spec. With how they have done reworks in the past and ignored player suggestions at BfA launch, I have absolutely no reason at all to believe they will tune the class properly or even effectively launch the rework.

I'm currently still waiting for both my shadow priest and my main here to have their classes completed - three months after the initial build changes went live, months after concerns were plastered all over the beta forums and shaman specific forums. I daresay I have every right to speculate.
10/18/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Bruthane
Can we get rid of the 3 second delay in damage and just use the existing rocket animation with it's travel time instead? Have it explode on contact. Simple, beautiful, boom!
I REALLY like the 3 second delay model. It allows for some serious burst potential, while increasing the skill required for highest effect. It is perfect exactly as it is (at least as far as I can surmise considering I haven't actually tested it yet).
10/18/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Masoschism
10/18/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Gunshy
Two arcane shots are superior to one Aimed Shot between 80 and 20%.
Of course the real proof is in testing, which I will do as soon as my client reinstall is complete, but the numbers do not support this claim.

This is what the numbers say (note, these are relative numbers. actual numbers will be multiplied by your AP):

Base

Arcane Shot
-- Damage: 60
-- Cast time: 1.5
-- Focus: 15

Aimed Shot
-- Damage: 207
-- Cast time: 2.5
-- Focus: 30

Effective comparision

Against Boss Mob armor (0.7 multiplier)

Two Arcanes:
-- Damage: 120
-- Cast time: 3.0
-- Focus: 30

DPCT: 40.0
DPF: 4.0

Aimed Shot:
-- Damage: 207 * 0.7 = 145
-- Cast time: 2.5
-- Focus: 30

DPCT: 58 (45% more)
DPF: 4.83 (20% more)

If you add in Precise Shots and assume 1.5 Precise Shots / Aimed
Damage: 145 (Aimed) + 1.5 * 1.75 * 60 = 303
Cast Time: 2.5 + 1.5 * 1.5 = 4.75
Focus: 30 + 15 * 1.5 = 52.5

DPCT: 64 (59% more than two arcanes)
DPF: 5.8 (44% more)

So unless something wonky is happening, or the numbers as listed are incorrect, it is difficult for me to take you at your word (actually, its impossible, but that's just how I'm built). If you provide logs, or even actual numbers, perhaps we can get to the bottom of the discrepancy.

When my PTR client is working, I will test it myself.


Oh I don't care to prove it to you. Do your own testing.
10/18/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Gunshy


First, this is speculation. There is no math, logs, or simulations (that I have seen) to support this claim (fear).

Third, even if maximizing Rapid Fire does become the new "way to play", you still must cast Steady Shot to cast those Arcanes, and you will almost certainly still want to cast Aimed Shot on CD, because it does substantially more DPF and DPCT than Arcane (or two Arcanes).


This is all factually incorrect as I've been testing it for an hour or so now. Two arcane shots are superior to one Aimed Shot between 80 and 20%. It is absolutely worth casting while execute is up. Outside of that. Nope.


This. Tested on the pts as well. There is 0 reason to get precise shot buffed arcane shots with aimed shot.
10/18/2018 06:07 PMPosted by Masoschism
10/18/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Bruthane
Can we get rid of the 3 second delay in damage and just use the existing rocket animation with it's travel time instead? Have it explode on contact. Simple, beautiful, boom!
I REALLY like the 3 second delay model. It allows for some serious burst potential, while increasing the skill required for highest effect. It is perfect exactly as it is (at least as far as I can surmise considering I haven't actually tested it yet).


The ability itself is great. The 30 second CD is not. It should prob be 20.
10/18/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Gunshy

Oh I don't care to prove it to you. Do your own testing.
Hate to say it but that's bad science.

If you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you.
10/18/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Yjjial
10/18/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Gunshy

Oh I don't care to prove it to you. Do your own testing.
Hate to say it but that's bad science.

If you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you.


This isn't curing cancer. Anyone can go on to the pts fire 2 arcane shots and 1 aimed shot.

Then factor in those 2 arcanes come with 100% mobility and a significant chance at reducing the CD of your best ability.

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