Morally grey idea for the Vulpera situation.

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10/18/2018 04:58 PMPosted by Etheldald
10/18/2018 04:52 PMPosted by Darethy
Nah, the Alliance have never been permanent victims. Zealotry and conquest have been baked into their narrative since Vanilla, they have only been mostly victims. But like it or not, the Purge Squad always has had precedent.


Strange. i never have seen that.
i think that you are confusing the scarlet crusade with the alliance.
i remember those farmers attacking the forsakens in southshore i think?

maybe is for the fact that i started playing more or less at the time of cata, bad timing, i guess.
10/18/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Kurogasa
Ironically, this is already the status quo for Horde leaders since they tend to die off in dungeons and raids before accomplishing their goals.

you have a point.
but like i said, at this point i don't care what alliance characters die or alliance cities raided. in fact maybe i am a fan of raiding stormwind to kill anduin. but that is just me.


Cata itself is Alliance aggression. They intervened in the invasion of the third party that they frankly thought were the scum of the earth(Gilneas.) not out of a desire to help(Save for the Kal'dorei) but to establish a conquest of Lordaeron and a slaughter of it's people.

Not that I felt especially about killing Gilnean troops though, while I have sympathy for it's citizenry I find both Genn Greymane and Darius Crowley to be repulsive, likewise for their goons.
10/18/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Darethy
Cata itself is Alliance aggression. They intervened in the invasion of the third party that they frankly thought were the scum of the earth(Gilneas.) not out of a desire to help(Save for the Kal'dorei) but to establish a conquest of Lordaeron and a slaughter of it's people.

pretty sure that garrosh started everything and if you have any doubt blizzard state that in chronicles 3.

yeah i don't like it either but meh.
10/18/2018 05:50 PMPosted by Etheldald
10/18/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Darethy
Cata itself is Alliance aggression. They intervened in the invasion of the third party that they frankly thought were the scum of the earth(Gilneas.) not out of a desire to help(Save for the Kal'dorei) but to establish a conquest of Lordaeron and a slaughter of it's people.

pretty sure that garrosh started everything and if you have any doubt blizzard state that in chronicles 3.

yeah i don't like it either but meh.


Garrosh and Varian using our forces as a proxy war doesn't change the fact Varian was pretty much there, not just to deny Garrosh a port, but for the wider goal of driving us to extinction.

And in doing so he promptly earned himself a face stabbing.
10/18/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Darethy
Cata itself is Alliance aggression. They intervened in the invasion of the third party that they frankly thought were the scum of the earth(Gilneas.)


WW2 was british aggression confirmed
I'm still confused at the outrage. The Voldunai willingly aid the actual, chosen champion of the NuScourge, and ostensibly, the Zandalari as well, who are allies of the NuScourge.

Did we not wipe out entire villages of Vrykul, and topple the Drakkari civilization for allying with the Old Scourge?
If the Vulpara were a group that Alliance players wanted to kill, then it wouldn't be an equivalent for what the Horde get. Regardless, neither situation is something players like but it is interesting that it effectively sets players against each other so they spend a great deal of time hating on the players of the other faction and effectively offset some of the anger that the writers would receive otherwise.

This ties back to this whole 'morally grey' thing being a joke. Neither side (for the most part) wants to be the villains but if your telling a conflict with one side as the 'good guys' the other ends up having to play the 'bad guys'. Good vs Evil just doesnt work well in a story where both sides are supposed to feel they have good cause to fight. It needs to be more 'us vs them' than 'good vs evil'.

Anyway it really doesnt matter. Blizzard isnt particularly good at nuance. This is their way to go 'see, both sides do bad things' like they always keep claiming. I doubt we will see that style of writing change anytime soon.
Garrosh and Varian using our forces as a proxy war doesn't change the fact Varian was pretty much there, not just to deny Garrosh a port, but for the wider goal of driving us to extinction.

And in doing so he promptly earned himself a face stabbing.


What the hell kind of revisionist history is this? Varian didnt even initially want the worgens/Gilneans back in the Alliance and actively tried to sabotage their induction!

He changed his mind after the worgens helped him and the night elves!
10/18/2018 07:37 PMPosted by Zerde
Garrosh and Varian using our forces as a proxy war doesn't change the fact Varian was pretty much there, not just to deny Garrosh a port, but for the wider goal of driving us to extinction.

And in doing so he promptly earned himself a face stabbing.


What the hell kind of revisionist history is this? Varian didnt even initially want the worgens/Gilneans back in the Alliance.

He changed his mind after the worgens helped him and the night elves!


Zerde, that's literally the point.

He hated the Worgens when he was helping the Worgens to conquer Lordaeron and deny Garrosh a port.
10/18/2018 07:37 PMPosted by Zerde
...

What the hell kind of revisionist history is this? Varian didnt even initially want the worgens/Gilneans back in the Alliance.

He changed his mind after the worgens helped him and the night elves!


Zerde, that's literally the point.

He hated the Worgens when he was helping the Worgens to conquer Lordaeron and deny Garrosh a port.


Are you sure the order goes Gilneas > Silverpine > Wolfheart?
I get that Horde players want to use this as a gotcha moment against the Alliance, but nothing is ever going to top Teldrassil, and most of the faction war. The Alliance is still led by Anduin, and the purge squad will carry as much narrative weight as the no witnesses man.
@Darethy, I have a really dumb question. Is there anything you know where the chronology of the different faction starting updates occur? I scoured chronicle 3 and the best I Col pin down is when the Worgen/Gobos starting zones occur. Really I’m trying to place when Wolfhaet takes place and when/how does the leveling events for cata fit in. We know for instance that the Worgen/Gobo start HAS to occur before the rest, especially the second zone. Any ideas?
10/18/2018 08:00 PMPosted by Arlifrex
I get that Horde players want to use this as a gotcha moment against the Alliance, but nothing is ever going to top Teldrassil, and most of the faction war. The Alliance is still led by Anduin, and the purge squad will carry as much narrative weight as the no witnesses man.


That’s the ‘brilliance’ of it though - it’s not against the Horde. Teldrassil isn’t the answer here, the Vulpera had no part in that.

This is a tangible example of what we’ve been told we’re supposed to have started this war over - Alliance oppression and the killing of those they see as lesser. And it is not a retaliation, it’s at best a super pre-emptive strike against a potential future foe. And it’s carried out by the ‘Purge Squad’.

This is the Alliance villain bat moment. It doesn’t matter how much you hate it existing (or how odd it is, admittedly), ‘Vengeance for The Voldunai’ is a rallying cry we can finally use.

I just wish we’d had this earlier.
10/18/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Saiphas
@Darethy, I have a really dumb question. Is there anything you know where the chronology of the different faction starting updates occur? I scoured chronicle 3 and the best I Col pin down is when the Worgen/Gobos starting zones occur. Really I’m trying to place when Wolfhaet takes place and when/how does the leveling events for cata fit in. We know for instance that the Worgen/Gobo start HAS to occur before the rest, especially the second zone. Any ideas?


This is kind of a pain in the !@#$ because the Goblins and Worgen have a weird placement in the Chronicles, from what i'v heard Lost Isles isn't even given a mention there. But whenever Wolfheart is occurring, the Gilneans have already settled in with the Night Elves and are having a summit. By that point in time I would have to imagine Darius and his Liberation Front have to have started their push against the Forsaken, unless they have been sitting on their hind legs for a long time. We are after all, encountering Worgen scouts even as far as the Glades in early questing.

That is however, entirely speculation on my part. I don't know if there's a source with a satisfying answer.
10/18/2018 08:08 PMPosted by Darethy
10/18/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Saiphas
@Darethy, I have a really dumb question. Is there anything you know where the chronology of the different faction starting updates occur? I scoured chronicle 3 and the best I Col pin down is when the Worgen/Gobos starting zones occur. Really I’m trying to place when Wolfhaet takes place and when/how does the leveling events for cata fit in. We know for instance that the Worgen/Gobo start HAS to occur before the rest, especially the second zone. Any ideas?


This is kind of a pain in the !@#$ because the Goblins and Worgen have a weird placement in the Chronicles, from what i'v heard Lost Isles isn't even given a mention there. But whenever Wolfheart is occurring, the Gilneans have already settled in with the Night Elves and are having a summit. By that point in time I would have to imagine Darius and his Liberation Front have to have started their push against the Forsaken, unless they have been sitting on their hind legs for a long time. We are after all, encountering Worgen scouts even as far as the Glades in early questing.

That is however, entirely speculation on my part. I don't know if there's a source with a satisfying answer.


No worries, I was wondering because specifically I am curious how all the leveling experiences intertwine because placing when certain events occur I feel is really important. It just feels a bit janky ya know?
10/18/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Saiphas
10/18/2018 08:08 PMPosted by Darethy
...

This is kind of a pain in the !@#$ because the Goblins and Worgen have a weird placement in the Chronicles, from what i'v heard Lost Isles isn't even given a mention there. But whenever Wolfheart is occurring, the Gilneans have already settled in with the Night Elves and are having a summit. By that point in time I would have to imagine Darius and his Liberation Front have to have started their push against the Forsaken, unless they have been sitting on their hind legs for a long time. We are after all, encountering Worgen scouts even as far as the Glades in early questing.

That is however, entirely speculation on my part. I don't know if there's a source with a satisfying answer.


No worries, I was wondering because specifically I am curious how all the leveling experiences intertwine because placing when certain events occur I feel is really important. It just feels a bit janky ya know?


It is, for that reason I tended to assume that one immediately happens right after the other. Basing lore off assumptions is never great, but sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows their own chronology.
10/18/2018 08:13 PMPosted by Darethy
10/18/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Saiphas
...

No worries, I was wondering because specifically I am curious how all the leveling experiences intertwine because placing when certain events occur I feel is really important. It just feels a bit janky ya know?


It is, for that reason I tended to assume that one immediately happens right after the other. Basing lore off assumptions is never great, but sometimes I wonder if Blizzard knows their own chronology.


On that we can agree whole heartedly
10/18/2018 07:38 PMPosted by Darethy
Zerde, that's literally the point.

He hated the Worgens when he was helping the Worgens to conquer Lordaeron and deny Garrosh a port.


What, this does not make sense.

10/18/2018 07:50 PMPosted by Arlifrex
Are you sure the order goes Gilneas > Silverpine > Wolfheart?


The order of events is Gilneas>Wolfheart>Silverpine.

From Chronicles:

Following the events in Ashenvale, sporadic battles errupted between the Horde and the Alliance in other regions. With the factions spread thin, Deathwing unleashed the Old Gods' minions on the world.
10/18/2018 07:38 PMPosted by Darethy
Zerde, that's literally the point.

He hated the Worgens when he was helping the Worgens to conquer Lordaeron and deny Garrosh a port.


What, this does not make sense.


Zerde, Gilneas was a staging ground to invade Silverpine, and thus Lordaeron.

Hence the point is Varian did not assist out of goodwill, he assisted for the sake of conquest.
10/18/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Darethy
Zerde, Gilneas was a staging ground to invade Silverpine, and thus Lordaeron.

Hence the point is Varian did not assist out of goodwill, he assisted for the sake of conquest.


He assisted Genn because Genn helped him and at that point Gilneas was a full fledge member of the Alliance. Again, this is the Varian that ended MoP with a goal of containing Sylvanas.
10/18/2018 09:08 PMPosted by Zerde
10/18/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Darethy
Zerde, Gilneas was a staging ground to invade Silverpine, and thus Lordaeron.

Hence the point is Varian did not assist out of goodwill, he assisted for the sake of conquest.


He assisted Genn because Genn helped him and at that point Gilneas was a full fledge member of the Alliance. Again, this is the Varian that ended MoP with a goal of containing Sylvanas.


Wouldn't the Varian that ended MoP with the goal of containing Sylvanas be the Varian in MoP and onward? Varian is not a Chaos God, just because character motivations change(See his respect for Windrunner in Legion.) doesn't mean they are, and always were.

Second the Chronicle part you quoted appears to be setting up the arrival of Deathwing, which happened before Gilneas.

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