Mythic plus really needs to be fixed

BFA Dungeons, Island Expeditions, and Raids
Bliz you really need to make some changes to mythic plus.

Rewards Rewards do not match the difficulty at all. Most people at 370 average item level are not completing plus 10's regularly.

Class balance Many classes are under represented in mythic plus. Look at guardian druids or resto shamans. If you can't balance the classes properly because of incompetence, then you need to lower the ceiling on difficulty.

Testing Did anyone test explosive? Too many of the instances are next to impossible with explosives and some of the other affixes. If you lack the ability to balance them properly, you should remove the bugged affixes until they can be properly implemented.

Affix imbalance If you can't balance the affixes across every specialization... for example if the majority of tanks are represented by two classes, then you need to either lower the difficulty or bring the other specializations up to par for the course. The majority of DPS, tank and healers should not be mostly represented by a few specs. That's flat out disgraceful.

I don't expect any meaningful changes to be made, but it would be nice.
While I agree with some of your points I strongly disagree with some others..
11/04/2018 09:27 PMPosted by Felgoop
Rewards Rewards do not match the difficulty at all. Most people at 370 average item level are not completing plus 10's regularly.

Neither they are clearing Heroic Uldir and/or killing a few bosses in Mythic, M+ is supposed to be challenging end-game content. Completing a +10 rewards loot equivalent to Heroic Raids (and it's spammable) plus also gives you a Mythic quality piece at the end of the week. So at the very least it should be about as hard as Heroic Uldir bosses and not the "free" ones but the slightly harder ones.

Players who have practiced and learned the dungeons well enough can consistently finish +10 keys, similar to player who progresses through Heroic Uldir and go their AOTC can then consistently clear it.. But Expecting any player who hasn't invested the time to practice, learn, and progress through the content to be able to do it just because his item level is appropriate is not correct.

The problem is players being able to reach 370 item level without actually having to run M+ and/or step into Heroic Raids.. All the free loot given away to them boosts them to high item level, one may think well what's the harm on that? I don't really mind casual players being able to acquire nice loot, but the problem comes when they can't progress their characters anymore because there's no more free loot beyond what they already have (save for incredibly lucky drops) it only comes from more challenging content.

11/04/2018 09:27 PMPosted by Felgoop
Class balance Many classes are under represented in mythic plus. Look at guardian druids or resto shamans. If you can't balance the classes properly because of incompetence, then you need to lower the ceiling on difficulty.

While perfect Class Balance is impossible to achieve, yes there are big issues with this subject, now that doesn't mean that the answer is to lower the difficulty, any spec is viable for a +10 key. I promise you that if you take a team composed by (for example) Prot Warrior, Resto Shaman, Shadow priest, Feral Druid, and MM hunter that know what they are doing they'll have no problem completing a +10.
I was able to start completing +10's right around the time I got AOTC and 370 ilvl. I felt they did a good job balancing that. +10's are no more difficult than a late heroic or early mythic boss, depending on the dungeon/affixes. And you don't even need to beat the timer to get the 380 gear.

As far as class balance, the reason they are underrepresented is mostly because no one is playing those classes, not because they're getting rejected. The real under representation is at keys well over +10. That being said, there is absolutely a balance issue with some classes there.

And explosive got hotfixed in like 24 hours. After that, I had no issues with the affix itself.
First off completing and making the timer are two different things. You aren't doing a +10 in time with Druid, feral, spriest, and MM hunter in time. I'm sure there is a scenario with overheated toons but you just aren't gonna make it in time.

Secondly just because everything is "viable" up to +10 doesn't mean they are ever taken. You CAN drive a car with your feet. That doesnt mean any sane person would do it.

What people seem to forget is to someone working on building the knowledge and skill whatever key they have is their "+14".

I'll repeat that... if a +7 is your highest key it's as important to you as that "+14" of a mythic geared toon.

You want to get to +10 and you're going to take the classes most likely to help you progress.

The end result is that EVEN as a feral druid I would NEVER consider taking a feral, mm hunter, spriest, etc, etc. To a key I wanted to push. I may get to the end with 30 seconds to spare and that 10% more damage I got off the DH could make all the difference.

Another thing. Nerfing the specs does nothing to make other specs more viable. The timer and affixes dont go by spec. You could nerf rogues, mages, locks, and DH to oblivion but the timer will still be 35min and the other classes wont be able to make it.
11/05/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Flappydrood


As far as class balance, the reason they are underrepresented is mostly because no one is playing those classes, not because they're getting rejected. The real under representation is at keys well over +10. That being said, there is absolutely a balance issue with some classes there.


That's complete BS. Plenty of people play the underrepresented classes. They just aren't part of the meta, so pugs will not take them because they don't bring anything useful.
11/05/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Eclypze
First off completing and making the timer are two different things. You aren't doing a +10 in time with Druid, feral, spriest, and MM hunter in time. I'm sure there is a scenario with overheated toons but you just aren't gonna make it in time.

Secondly just because everything is "viable" up to +10 doesn't mean they are ever taken. You CAN drive a car with your feet. That doesnt mean any sane person would do it.

What people seem to forget is to someone working on building the knowledge and skill whatever key they have is their "+14".

I'll repeat that... if a +7 is your highest key it's as important to you as that "+14" of a mythic geared toon.

You want to get to +10 and you're going to take the classes most likely to help you progress.

The end result is that EVEN as a feral druid I would NEVER consider taking a feral, mm hunter, spriest, etc, etc. To a key I wanted to push. I may get to the end with 30 seconds to spare and that 10% more damage I got off the DH could make all the difference.

Another thing. Nerfing the specs does nothing to make other specs more viable. The timer and affixes dont go by spec. You could nerf rogues, mages, locks, and DH to oblivion but the timer will still be 35min and the other classes wont be able to make it.


My group and I have had no issues completing 10s and 11s with both a feral druid and an spriest in the group. 90% of m+ is knowing mechanics, pathing, strats to skip the deadly pulls, etc.

The problem is the majority of players playing these specs do not understand how to actually do well. I average 11-13k overall dungeon dps and do about 14-16k or so on bosses. These numbers are easily enough to do every +10 in time. Sure, an equally skilled DH will always beat out a feral but that's the thing about the majority of players in this game, they are average. I'm not even that fantastic of a player, just slightly ahead of the norm. My IO would be higher but my group keeps getting the same keys over and over, like all our highest siege keys are a 7 because we haven't gotten one higher yet. We easily did a 12 freehold and almost got a 13 tol in time, but one wipe lost us the timer.

Check out Hoofhartd for the number 1 m+ feral. 1500 IO last I talked to him.

Hell if you have near a 1k IO score you're in the top 5% of scores in the world. People just aren't pushing high keys.

My point is that almost more so than actual balance is community perspective. People hear that a couple of specs suck so they dont bring them even when true class balance isnt going to start mattering until you get closer to +15 keys, at which point that's the top 1% of players and why the imbalance is more easily seen. You're simply playing with q better quality of player who is capable of putting out more from a top tier class.

Blizzard never should have allowed some specs to come out like this as even if these specs doing worse in m+ content get a complete overhaul it'll be weeks before community perspective changes. Look at feral in legion 7.3. Super solid m+ spec after the changes and yet it was months before that caught on to the majority of the playerbase and the spec stopped being a meme.
11/05/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Pidooma
My group and I have had no issues completing 10s and 11s with both a feral druid and an spriest in the group


Hey we can look you up and you haven't done it with a shadow priest for some time. If you want to talk smack, you are required to run a +10 in time with a shadow priest, guardian druid, resto shaman and feral druid....

Until then, stop being a jerk and a devil's advocate.

Mtyhic plus is broken and not balanced.
11/05/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Pidooma
Check out Hoofhartd for the number 1 m+ feral. 1500 IO last I talked to him.


Yeah 1500 when the top in spec are doing +18.

You can't take one of the best players and then say "see told yah so"

The fact remains the combination of difficulty and unbalanced classes is discouraging too many players. No one wants to take guardian druids or warriors when a blood DK or vengeance DH are twice as good, literally. As a guardian druid during the weeks with stacking tank healing debuffs, what are guardian druids supposed to do? That's right, bliz's answer is they can get bent.
11/05/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Pidooma
11/05/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Eclypze
First off completing and making the timer are two different things. You aren't doing a +10 in time with Druid, feral, spriest, and MM hunter in time. I'm sure there is a scenario with overheated toons but you just aren't gonna make it in time.

Secondly just because everything is "viable" up to +10 doesn't mean they are ever taken. You CAN drive a car with your feet. That doesnt mean any sane person would do it.

What people seem to forget is to someone working on building the knowledge and skill whatever key they have is their "+14".

I'll repeat that... if a +7 is your highest key it's as important to you as that "+14" of a mythic geared toon.

You want to get to +10 and you're going to take the classes most likely to help you progress.

The end result is that EVEN as a feral druid I would NEVER consider taking a feral, mm hunter, spriest, etc, etc. To a key I wanted to push. I may get to the end with 30 seconds to spare and that 10% more damage I got off the DH could make all the difference.

Another thing. Nerfing the specs does nothing to make other specs more viable. The timer and affixes dont go by spec. You could nerf rogues, mages, locks, and DH to oblivion but the timer will still be 35min and the other classes wont be able to make it.


My group and I have had no issues completing 10s and 11s with both a feral druid and an spriest in the group. 90% of m+ is knowing mechanics, pathing, strats to skip the deadly pulls, etc.

The problem is the majority of players playing these specs do not understand how to actually do well. I average 11-13k overall dungeon dps and do about 14-16k or so on bosses. These numbers are easily enough to do every +10 in time. Sure, an equally skilled DH will always beat out a feral but that's the thing about the majority of players in this game, they are average. I'm not even that fantastic of a player, just slightly ahead of the norm. My IO would be higher but my group keeps getting the same keys over and over, like all our highest siege keys are a 7 because we haven't gotten one higher yet. We easily did a 12 freehold and almost got a 13 tol in time, but one wipe lost us the timer.

Check out Hoofhartd for the number 1 m+ feral. 1500 IO last I talked to him.

Hell if you have near a 1k IO score you're in the top 5% of scores in the world. People just aren't pushing high keys.

My point is that almost more so than actual balance is community perspective. People hear that a couple of specs suck so they dont bring them even when true class balance isnt going to start mattering until you get closer to +15 keys, at which point that's the top 1% of players and why the imbalance is more easily seen. You're simply playing with q better quality of player who is capable of putting out more from a top tier class.

Blizzard never should have allowed some specs to come out like this as even if these specs doing worse in m+ content get a complete overhaul it'll be weeks before community perspective changes. Look at feral in legion 7.3. Super solid m+ spec after the changes and yet it was months before that caught on to the majority of the playerbase and the spec stopped being a meme.


You countered all your own points for me. Everything you said can be summed up with "an equally skilled DH will always beat out a feral"

That's where you can stop. I'm not going to hunt through the whole druid, priest, etc etc, communities to find the top 5% IO players. For one they dont pug. And two what is the point when a mage, rogue, DH, or lock could do it better.

It's not "community perception". Its visible cumulative data that those classes are the best by far.

Plus you came in this thread with a crew of friends that play with you regardless of spec and grind keys. Oh problem solved I just need 4 other people willing to blow timers with my gimp spec for a month or two while I optimize my gear and not ditch me for a class that could do more butt naked with a wet fish as a weapon. How could not of us pugging have ever thought about this before?

My absolute favorite is the "it's only relevant in +14 keys" argument. Because it's silly for anyone to mimic what pros do. If you see good players doing something make sure NOT to copy that. Those skills are only important for their level. Whatever you do dont mimic anything you see in the MDI.

Then the next paragraph they say how you need to work at it and get better...
I have never seen a M+ in lfg that said Guardian druid preferred but I have seen countless groups looking for DK only or DK, DH preferred.
The "problem" with mythic+ isn't that it has become harder, it is that it has become less forgiving.

Back in legion your group could wipe 5, 6, 7 times or so and still make it in time. And us tanks could pretty much solo every boss and most trash packs so it didn't matter if dps and healers failed mechanics and got themselves killed because they would just get carried (Hymdall in particular comes to mind as I can't count the number of times all the pugs died to his first wave of drakes) and for kicks and giggles I once soloed the entire second half of a 12 thicket because all the pugs left after repeatedly failing mechanics and rage quitting.

But now? Now you have to try. Wiping even once can be the difference between failing the timer and beating it. Now if dps fail mechanics and die the boss isn't going down. Bfa didn't make dungeons harder, it made people have to stratagize, learn mechanics, and pay attention.

That is what makes them more difficult. Especially for unorganized pug groups who attempt to overcome this by filling the group with the "optimal" classes and specs in an attempt to circumvent this. An endeavor that more often then not leads to them to failing timer and disbanding due to trying to our head and outspec the mechanics
“Pug groups won’t take this spec” is different from “this spec can’t complete a +10 at 370.” The former may be true, but the latter doesn’t follow from it at all. You might not be able to breeze through the dungeon as easily as BDK/HDH/FM/Sub/Disc, but knowledgeable players can get there in time.

I suggest finding a group of friends intent on accomplishing higher m+s and, as with heroic raiding, *progress* through this content together. You will have way more fun (which is the point, right?), and you won’t have to sweat spec or comp problems near as much.
I completely agree Brujanna, that was my exact point. While you may not be absolutely crushing places as easy as with the "meta" setup there's nothing stopping you from pushing when you have the knowledge and skills to do so.

Felgoop, I played with a super solid spriest in my last 10 underrot 9 days ago. You know why I haven't done a key with the exact setup you ask? Because I've legit never seen some of the specs you mention, like a resto shammy. People will always gravitate towards the fotm stuff, it doesn't make it a rule that nothing else is capable of pushing. Top specs are doing 18+? Wut. You have to be in the top 140 players in the world to be setting times for 18s. You know how many current times set in m+ there are? 1,515,929. So surely you aren't arguing your point over the top 0.009% of times by the best players in the world, right? If you look at the top 140 times you'll see that most are complete by the same 15 or so groups. There are currently ~895,000 players who have done at least one m+

My whole point is that player skill equates to much more success than the class as a whole. You simply aren't going to have an easy time pugging 10 or higher keys anyway. 1k io is top 5% of the m+ community. Do you think they are out there pugging all their keys? I'd imagine it would be just as hard to pug into mythic raiding, even as the best specs. My point about skill is simply this, the majority of players pugging are not great by any extension of the word. If you are better than average your class matters a lot less when competing against random players.

For example, look how many unholy dks are brought to things and have an easy time pugging yet in the MDI the unholy dk brought did 340k dps on multiple pulls. Which is just insane. That was a situation brought about because of a solid group with coordination being able to play to the specs strengths, which is huge dps on huge mob pulls.

If you have issues getting groups then start your own by running your own keys and make a m+ community like I did. Every solid player we get has been invited and we are now sitting at 35 members, only 3 of which I knew prior to bfa m+. The pug world sucks regardless of class or spec, it's simply less crappy for a few other specs.

For a melee dps spot in m+ you have so many factors as to why you didnt get chosen. We get messages like "im 370 rogue why was i declined from the group" and a lot of it is as simply as the supply of dps is so large there is always someone higher ilvl. It's how I first met that spriest. He had a crazy high io score so we took him over a rogue and hes one of the best players I've ever met skill wise and his numbers were insane.

Eclypze, you say why not copy what the pros are doing, but let me ask if this. Do you really believe that the general pugging population is capable of pulling that off? There's a reason why your average disc priest cant do 10s and yet it's one of the best healers at the top levels of play. You can check raid logs for the same example. Like, do people even know why it is that they "need a Dk tank" and why the prot pally tank wouldn't work? I've had plenty of pug dk tanks and they've all been way worse than the prot pally that we took a chance on and has now become a core part of my group.

Want an example of a solid guardian druid? Check out Nihillo and his video here. He actually pugs with his viewers all the time. Is he another example of "having a group willing to blow timers with a gimp spec" or did he find a way to make it work because hes better than the average player?

https://youtu.be/H1KnpWG7bJI
11/05/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Flappydrood
And explosive got hotfixed in like 24 hours.


Try a Tol Dagor +7. As soon as you get to Sand Queen, you'll be bluntly shown how not hotfixed Explosive is.
11/06/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Feyd
11/05/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Flappydrood
And explosive got hotfixed in like 24 hours.


Try a Tol Dagor +7. As soon as you get to Sand Queen, you'll be bluntly shown how not hotfixed Explosive is.

dude explosive was over a week ago nobody can test your theory right now
Explosive on the first boss was really rough, but doable. You had to prioritize killing adds asap.

Fortunately, we only get explosive periodically.
even if you removed the second and third tier affixes the tyrannical alone is overtuned on too many bosses given the intended gear level, for example

underrot

first boss:
- kill boss before 3 mirror images or you wipe
- even with 1-2 images very hard to heal and images have lots of hp

second boss:
- tantrum way too much damage and its unavoidable

third boss:
- way too much damage even if you perfectly handle mushrooms

king's rest

first boss:
- spit gold does way too much unavoidable dot damage
- then it does further massive unavoidable damage as the dot ends
- blobs have too much health

and then on the extreme other end we have:

tyrannical motherlode:
- the bosses might as well be glorified world quest elites regardless of other affixes

literally ANY affix combination for freehold:
- a joke of a dungeon assuming your group is not braindead
- only shark boss and council boss with eudora (gun shooter) require some effort
- this dungeon is literally such a joke i'm wondering if i'm even playing the same game relative to other dungeons
I actually like having some dungeons being more difficult than others and also some that are more affected by Tyrannical while others are more affected by Fortified, or other affixes.

The moment in between the end of the run and when you check which new key you got it's quite exciting because you know some would be easy and some would not, then when you get an easy one like Atal or Freehold you are instantly happy because you know that you can probably do it.

Not too long ago I joined a pug group for a +14 Atal, we keyed it then the group was about to disband when the leader linked the key he got.. It was a 15 Freehold, we were all so happy because we knew we had a very good shot at it so everyone stayed for that run, and that actually tuned out to be our first 15 in time (for all of us in the group I think).

As for the harder ones it's also quite fun in the sense that you are waiting for that good week with the right affixes to finally push it.
I dont understand why people are complaining about the fact that they are doing !@#$ wrong. These dungeons and affixs are not hard to combat what so ever. This is coming from a resto shaman that has no issue healing mythic+
11/06/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Feyd
11/05/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Flappydrood
And explosive got hotfixed in like 24 hours.


Try a Tol Dagor +7. As soon as you get to Sand Queen, you'll be bluntly shown how not hotfixed Explosive is.
sounds like you are just a bad player. Mele/hunters ot a tank should be focused on orbs no matter what is going on. The affix is not hard.

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