8.1 IE Doubloon vendor - this is ridiculous Blizzard

General Discussion
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The Issue and Complaint from launch till now

Island Expeditions launched with a gigantic loot table attached to it (300+ items total I believe). Mounts, pets, toys, transmog are all found there. Achievements tied to acquiring items are also present (quest-starting items and pets specifically). That's tied of course to a meta achievement and title.

From launch onwards, the most consistent complaint about the rewards was simply about how RNG intense the rewards were (right at launch the drop rates were basically entirely broken, and after a hotfix, the drop rates graduated from being broken to being just generally bad and still heavily complained about). A secondary complaint was also about the esoteric nature of the RNG (people wasted a lot of time on bad strategies trying to figure out how the drops worked the first few months) - it may be fairly well understood now, though not completely. Today the loot system is probably best described as a time-gated, double layer of RNG. (Time-gate = invasion types and islands; first RNG layer = rare spawns; second RNG layer = whether killing those things actually gets you the loot you're after). People still debate whether difficulty impacts reward chance and whether victory impacts reward chance, though the general consensus is that it probably does not.

The suggestion feedback Blizzard got

Probably the most consistent suggestion Blizzard received about island expedition reward structure was that they should put the loot on a doubloon vendor (tuning doubloon drops to be numerically reasonable for whatever prices they'd put on them).

For 8.1, first seen on the PTR, but mentioned also at Blizzcon, they will be adding a doubloon vendor for rewards for the Island Expeditions. But the doubloon vendors have nothing to do with the gigantic launch loot table which was the source of all the complaints.


This feels purposefully obtuse by Blizzard. I don't think they're ignorant of the feedback they got. They know what was being said, what was being suggested. To implement something that's extremely similar to what was suggested, but to do it in such a way that it fixes nothing about the primary reward table of the island, just looks bizarre to me.

I'll try to put this in a straight-forward manner: when players ask for a system that affords bad luck protection for a particular loot table, they are looking for something that will both allow RNG to come into play, but not let RNG dominate indefinitely. A doubloon vendor was commonly asked for to provide bad luck protection against the time-gated, double-layered RNG system (and its seemingly punishingly low drop rates) for the lauch loot table of the island. You could acquire rewards randomly still, but if you did not, you would still know that over time you'd eventually get the reward through the currency.

What was not being asked for:

Feedback that was NOT being offered was, "We really need you to implement MORE rewards for the island, and put them on a separate vendor, but leave the initial loot table alone." No one was asking for that.

I know there's a temptation by some people on the forums when they see someone complain about implementation of a reward structure to post, "oh look, people complaining about Blizzard giving them more stuff." But I don't give credit to Blizzard for adding new cosmetic rewards to the game over time - that's routine for new content patches. I do give credit to them for resolving problem issues brought to their attention by feedback, which the 8.1 doubloon vendor is not doing.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the new doubloon vendor offering these consolation prizes makes the island expeditions worse. I'm not suggesting it should be removed and the items it will offer shouldn't exist. What I am saying is it's really striking how they come so close to fixing the primary issue of the island reward structure, and then just obstinately stop short of actually fixing it.

It comes across less like acting on feedback and more like mocking it. I know that's not their intent, but that is how it comes across.

Fixing the reward structure problems means addressing the launch loot table

I haven't heard of any other actions they plan to take about the launch loot table. Now, I could be wrong. It could be that there's some other significant reworking of the RNG for the launch loot table in the works they haven't announced yet to make it more reasonable and the RNG less severe and less esoteric. If that's the case, then I'd want to wait to see how the new system shakes out. But so far, the new doubloon vendor seems like it's pretty much it, and it's just there to act as a consolation vendor rather than a source of bad luck protection.

I recognize that a LOT of other things are probably more exciting to talk about now than this. Blizzcon always has that effect. There's big lore developments, new zones and raids announced, etc. But topics like this are really important, because they focus around the kind of reward systems that govern the day-to-day operation of a central feature of BFA: Island Expeditions. It's disappointing to see the route Blizzard seems to have taken on this.
Bravo, well said!

(gives OP a tray of cookies for a well thought out post!)
11/05/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Grumbles
Bravo, well said!

(gives OP a tray of cookies for a well thought out post!)


I better make sure I have cookies enabled on my browser first, but thanks!
Only time I have ever seen anything from the IE loot table was on a loss. Pretty sure I've seen posts saying the same.
11/05/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Grumbles
Bravo, well said!

(gives OP a tray of cookies for a well thought out post!)


OP has a reputation for making well thought out posts.

You have my +1, Torvald.
Yeah agreed.

The vendor is nice, but doesnt include the other items that literally you could spend a year or longer grinding these expeditions..and walk away with...azerite.
Lol @ OP.

I saw the pbe post in wowhead about a doubloons vendor and got so excited that they finally gave us a reasonable, grindable way to viablu get mog gear etc.

Then I clicked on the wowhead post and saw what was being sold. Mostly junk that shows little appeal, none of it one of the mog items.

It's seriously appalling how completely ignorant bliz is. And by ignorant I mean focused only on gating content and dragging subs out through artificial, meaningless ways like this, whilst ignoring 99% of feedback and just adding more RNG to everything.
The current plans for island expedition rewards do nothing to incentivize me to participate in them. If I can't target the things I want with an eventual guarantee of getting them (through earning enough doubloons), then island expeditions are a waste of my time. Putting a few token items on a vendor while leaving everything else at the mercy of the RNG does not fix the issues with island expedition reward structure.
I think Blizzard is being run by an algorithm. There is no way that actual human beings are making decisions that are this bad.
Only thing that sucks about the vendor is the fact that I never thought blizz would bring this out, and I thought they would truly just be for the current vendor of random little things that aid out in each game, so I've already spent all the dubloons that i've gotten on that "/
11/05/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Presumption
I think Blizzard is being run by an algorithm. There is no way that actual human beings are making decisions that are this bad.


Lol
This makes me so sad.

I was prepared to farm IE for what doesn't drop for me, but no, not going to be worth my time. Content still not worth doing.....
I'll admit I only skimmed the post, but I 100% agree with putting all of the items on the loot table for IE's on a vendor to be purchased with doubloons.

these are cosmetic, fun items, there is absolutely no reason to have such insane RNG on whether or not we actually get them.
To be completely fair, as much as I agree with the OP, this was what changes they could squeeze out for 8.1, which is only a month away. We could potentially see more later.
You left out the fact that IE is just insanely boring.

Dubloons don't inherently make them interesting....it just means your endurance will eventually pay off (somewhat) after enough grinding.

They still suck.

Also - as with previous emissaries. You cannot use alts (leveling) or anything else to help contribute to the currency. Forcing you to farm them on characters that require nothing.

To be honest, I don't view this as 8.0 content. I view it as 9.0/10.0 when we have enough hp/dps to just solo them in roughly 3-5 minutes by chain pulling entire expedition. That's likely the only time the "grind" will be tolerable.

I genuinely don't think there is much they can do to make them more interesting.
I don't agree with putting current rewards on the vendor. They instead need to be clearer on how you are meant to get current rewards. From what the community has come up with, specific rares and events come with specific loot. I'm okay with this personally.

The problem is spawning invasion events is incredibly inconsistent. The whole idea of having to hold off gathering azerite because it will fill your hold too fast is counterproductive. The enemy team makes it so you can't take your time and go for these items.

They actually have something interesting here with the whole rare hunting gameplay, but it needs major MAJOR improvements.
Excellent post, OP.

It's a shame that even well-constructed feedback like this gets ignored.
11/05/2018 04:13 PMPosted by Kentaurus
To be completely fair, as much as I agree with the OP, this was what changes they could squeeze out for 8.1, which is only a month away. We could potentially see more later.


That's true! And I'll just say, if Blizzard comes out and says that they plan on doing this in 8.2 because they ran out of time for 8.1 and needed more time to figure out prices or some such thing for the launch loot table items, then I will be the first to give them kudos (well, maybe not technically the first, since I might not see the news first, but I would do it immediately upon finding out).

11/05/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Yonbi
You left out the fact that IE is just insanely boring.

Dubloons don't inherently make them interesting....it just means your endurance will eventually pay off (somewhat) after enough grinding.

They still suck.

Also - as with previous emissaries. You cannot use alts (leveling) or anything else to help contribute to the currency. Forcing you to farm them on characters that require nothing.

To be honest, I don't view this as 8.0 content. I view it as 9.0/10.0 when we have enough hp/dps to just solo them in roughly 3-5 minutes by chain pulling entire expedition. That's likely the only time the "grind" will be tolerable.

I genuinely don't think there is much they can do to make them more interesting.


Yonbi actually knows that I have a higher-than-average tolerance for the insanely boring from the heavy length of time he and I spent farming Huolon's mount.

But on the gameplay side, I will mention that I know they're planning various changes to island expeditions to make the actual gameplay more enjoyable. A lot in WoW really depends heavily on both though. Gameplay without rewards often leads to people enjoying something, but just enjoying it once, then feeling ready to move on. Rewards without fun gameplay... well, a lot of things fall into that trap regularly, but certainly Blizzard always wants the gameplay to feel fun when they can.

I will say one thing though, when a rewards system is well done in WoW, gameplay that's not particularly challenging often becomes kind of relaxing and still enjoyable for players. But if unchallenging content is linked with RNG rewards, players naturally start to draw all of their enjoyment from how much the RNG is paying off, which then often translates to frustration and abandonment if the RNG seems too punishing.
I don't agree with putting current rewards on the vendor.


I do.

They instead need to be clearer on how you are meant to get current rewards. From what the community has come up with, specific rares and events come with specific loot.


No they dont.

Ill restate this:

You can do that over and over and over again in any manner you want for YEARS - RNG = walk away with nothing to show for it.

RNG is effort = / = reward. There is no set drop rate. No percentage. Its roll the dice every time.

So yes to put it ALL on vendors.
I run IE for some mindless leveling on alts every once in a while. whatever I get (not much) is gravy.

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