Personal Loot, the Mythic Raid Killer

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
Hello,

The personal loot system for this expansion is making it hard to keep and recruit guild members. We are not an amazing guild but we try to progress mythic. If you are not 3-8 mythic, its a lot like LFR. People join and leave join and leave. Once they get their kill or loot, they are gone. Things like DKP, EPGP, and other systems helped with loyalty, but all of that is gone. This is not from the standpoint of not getting the loot i want, i have STACKS of loot.

Is there a Master Loot system coming back anytime soon?

Thanks!
No. It is not.

I guess you’ll have to find players who enjoy your company and share your goals and relative skill level, since you can’t bribe them with gear.

Good luck.
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ticklebag
No. It is not.

I guess you’ll have to find players who enjoy your company and share your goals and relative skill level, since you can’t bribe them with gear.

Good luck.


Yes, Yes it is. It is not a bribe system, it was a way of earning currency with a raid of people. It forces you to put in the time, not just use people and leave when you want to.
11/07/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Urgent
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ticklebag
No. It is not.

I guess you’ll have to find players who enjoy your company and share your goals and relative skill level, since you can’t bribe them with gear.

Good luck.


Yes, Yes it is. It is not a bribe system, it was a way of earning currency with a raid of people. It forces you to put in the time, not just use people and leave when you want to.

That creates a perverse incentive to stay with a guild: the promise of loot. A guild is supposed to be a collection of like-minded individuals who share the same goals and have a level of comradery such that they are happy to help their fellow guild mates. If your guild members are only in it for the loot, then you don’t have a guild; you have a group of gold diggers.

If your guild members are leaving the raid after getting a piece of loot, then you have bad guild members. In the future, I would suggest you be more selective about who you accept into your guild. That, or give your guild members a reason to stay in the raid that doesn’t involve withholding loot.
Personal loot really didn't change much outside of the beginning of the raid tier.
Master loot, trials tend to still get showered in loot from farm bosses simply because there was so much unneeded gear outside of BiS trinkets and weapons.
The people that trialed with a guild just to get some loot/kills existed before ML went away, and PL only didn't really change it, its a fact of mythic raiding that you're going to deal with.
11/07/2018 04:38 PMPosted by Urgent
Is there a Master Loot system coming back anytime soon?

11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ticklebag
No. It is not.

11/07/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Urgent
Yes, Yes it is.

You asked a question. He answered it. You contradicted his answer, incorrectly, as far as I know. What am I missing?
11/07/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Urgent
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ticklebag
No. It is not.

I guess you’ll have to find players who enjoy your company and share your goals and relative skill level, since you can’t bribe them with gear.

Good luck.


Yes, Yes it is. It is not a bribe system, it was a way of earning currency with a raid of people. It forces you to put in the time, not just use people and leave when you want to.


No, it subjected people to the whims of the GL and their band of officers who in turn would talk people, who got them through the raid, out of loot with the hopes that, "Maybe next week you will get a piece" while gearing up their buddies.

It subjected them to the time frames the GL and Officers set with no room for change. It subjected them to "Sorry, we don't need you this week as we have this other person we are trying to gear up".

Now people are free to leave these guilds and find something better that suits their needs. If the guild was bonded this doesn't happen as they are happy to work through everything and just run the raids. In other words, the guilds that seem to be struggling were the ones that dangled the proverbial carrot of gear in order to attract raiders while the ones who are not struggling are the ones that could care less about gear and just wish to progress through the raid with their friends.
Cross realm mythic raiding just opened up 1 to 2 months faster than it would have during any recent tier. 100 Alliance kills of the last boss usually happened around World 400 about 3 1/2 months into the tier and it has now happened around World 300 about 2 months into the tier. I don't doubt that the Hall of Fame Achievement may have incentivized some guilds to either switch to Alliance or to push harder to complete. I'm not convinced Mythic Raiding is dying.

The big problem with Master Looter was Transparency and Trust of the Master Looter (or Loot Council). Where there was Transparency from and Trust in the Master Looter (or Loot Council) - the system worked well and the group loved it and wants it back. Where there was a lack of Transparency from and Trust in the Master Looter, there were issues - whether it was the funneling of loot to friends, exclusion of loot from frienemies, or the exclusion of loot from pugs added and trials. This led to the downfall of the master loot system and is why it won't come back.

Everyone is dealing with personal loot - if you feel personal loot is what is killing your Mythic Raid team, you might want to take a deeper look at the team and its leadership. With the opening of cross realm Mythic Raiding, there is an opportunity to try out new players and sell them on potentially server transferring and joining the guild for the next tier. A mostly guild group with a track record of staying together and killing bosses should be attractive to someone trying to pug.
11/08/2018 07:42 AMPosted by Neall
Cross realm mythic raiding just opened up 1 to 2 months faster than it would have during any recent tier. 100 Alliance kills of the last boss usually happened around World 400 about 3 1/2 months into the tier and it has now happened around World 300 about 2 months into the tier. I don't doubt that the Hall of Fame Achievement may have incentivized some guilds to either switch to Alliance or to push harder to complete. I'm not convinced Mythic Raiding is dying.

The big problem with Master Looter was Transparency and Trust of the Master Looter (or Loot Council). Where there was Transparency from and Trust in the Master Looter (or Loot Council) - the system worked well and the group loved it and wants it back. Where there was a lack of Transparency from and Trust in the Master Looter, there were issues - whether it was the funneling of loot to friends, exclusion of loot from frienemies, or the exclusion of loot from pugs added and trials. This led to the downfall of the master loot system and is why it won't come back.

Everyone is dealing with personal loot - if you feel personal loot is what is killing your Mythic Raid team, you might want to take a deeper look at the team and its leadership. With the opening of cross realm Mythic Raiding, there is an opportunity to try out new players and sell them on potentially server transferring and joining the guild for the next tier. A mostly guild group with a track record of staying together and killing bosses should be attractive to someone trying to pug.


No, ML worked fine. If people didn't like ML, there was plenty of guilds who ran PL. You don't even raid mythic, where ML is the most relevant. So again, here we have someone (an MVP at that), not running the primary content in which ML is a concern, talking about the lack of transparency and trust in ML. That's not why ML was removed. It was removed to #1 slow down prog, #2 try to casualize this game even more than it is. Bad guilds that abuse ML don't survive...blizzard didn't need to interfere in that process.
Apologies. I didn't realize that you had to be currently raiding Mythic to comment in this thread. I didn't realize that being on the Council (rank below the GM but above the Officers) in a guild that has multiple raid teams including a mythic team didn't give me any insight into this issue. I didn't realize that (since I am top 1% in Achievements earned in game in the world and have helped thousands of people earn hundreds of thousands of achievements in game including mythic raiders and thus) since I know many mythic raid leaders well enough that I can discuss this and other issues with them that these relationships and conversations don't give me any insight into this issue.

Also, I didn't realize we were just making up our own reasons for why Master Loot was removed.

I'll see my way out of your thread.
11/08/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Neall
Apologies. I didn't realize that you had to be currently raiding Mythic to comment in this thread. I didn't realize that being on the Council (rank below the GM but above the Officers) in a guild that has multiple raid teams including a mythic team didn't give me any insight into this issue. I didn't realize that (since I am top 1% in Achievements earned in game in the world and have helped thousands of people earn hundreds of thousands of achievements in game including mythic raiders and thus) since I know many mythic raid leaders well enough that I can discuss this and other issues with them that these relationships and conversations don't give me any insight into this issue.

Also, I didn't realize we were just making up our own reasons for why Master Loot was removed.

I'll see my way out of your thread.


It's obvious the personal loot change is intended to slow down raids gearing up. If that WASN'T their intention, they'd have done more to fix all of these personal loot issues that keep cropping up. The real answer is these AREN'T issues as far as Blizzard is concerned. Everytime a piece of gear goes to waste, you play longer. You play longer, you spend more. At least that's the crooked reasoning they're going with but i personally think it's going to bite them in the !@# in the long run.
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ticklebag
No. It is not.

I guess you’ll have to find players who enjoy your company and share your goals and relative skill level, since you can’t bribe them with gear.

Good luck.


It certainly doesn't help.
11/08/2018 07:42 AMPosted by Neall
Cross realm mythic raiding just opened up 1 to 2 months faster than it would have during any recent tier. 100 Alliance kills of the last boss usually happened around World 400 about 3 1/2 months into the tier and it has now happened around World 300 about 2 months into the tier. I don't doubt that the Hall of Fame Achievement may have incentivized some guilds to either switch to Alliance or to push harder to complete.


There are fewer alliance raiding guilds now than ever before at the top end. It only looks like there are more because the top 100 includes Asian guilds where wowprogress and raider.io don't except for the top few. Mythic raiding isn't dying, it just becoming more red with every new tier. The HOF hasn't changed this.
11/08/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Kalcifer
11/07/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ticklebag
No. It is not.

I guess you’ll have to find players who enjoy your company and share your goals and relative skill level, since you can’t bribe them with gear.

Good luck.


It certainly doesn't help.


I’ve been

11/08/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Leafblight
11/08/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Neall
Apologies. I didn't realize that you had to be currently raiding Mythic to comment in this thread. I didn't realize that being on the Council (rank below the GM but above the Officers) in a guild that has multiple raid teams including a mythic team didn't give me any insight into this issue. I didn't realize that (since I am top 1% in Achievements earned in game in the world and have helped thousands of people earn hundreds of thousands of achievements in game including mythic raiders and thus) since I know many mythic raid leaders well enough that I can discuss this and other issues with them that these relationships and conversations don't give me any insight into this issue.

Also, I didn't realize we were just making up our own reasons for why Master Loot was removed.

I'll see my way out of your thread.


It's obvious the personal loot change is intended to slow down raids gearing up. If that WASN'T their intention, they'd have done more to fix all of these personal loot issues that keep cropping up. The real answer is these AREN'T issues as far as Blizzard is concerned. Everytime a piece of gear goes to waste, you play longer. You play longer, you spend more. At least that's the crooked reasoning they're going with but i personally think it's going to bite them in the !@# in the long run.


Conspiracy theories are how confirmation bias manifests itself in the especially ignorant.

Blizzard has been looking for ways to shut down split runs for a long time and witnessing (and getting feedback from) a big segment of the community that is being effected by “unfair” ML systems.

They’ve been upfront about both those things for over a year at least. PL only stops both those annoying (to blizzard) things from occurring. Slam dunk.

If you refuse to believe that players are ill effected by ML, then you have to come up with a different reason for the change. The big bad boogy man, in this case blizz, is out to get you by purposely nerfing how much loot you get so they can get more payments from you.

I’ve run a PL only guild for years and we have never ever ever been low on gear. Gear flows like water under PL systems.

For you’re conspiracy theory to hold water the number of drops per boss would have to be substantially less under PL, when in fact, statistically, it is more.

I don’t expect to change your mind. You’re not the type to rationally, critically evaluate some emotional response you have.

I can tell you that I’ve been playing since vanilla and only one time has blizzard ever reverted such a big change as this — they remove tier from LFR and then put it back... next expansion.

40 man raiding gone
Lengthy raid attunments gone
10 and 25 man raiding gone
flying mounts at launch gone

Now ML gone.

Like it or not, you better figure it out. Blizzard does not ever admit defeat.

Maybe WoW will fail and all the servers close because of this, wont that be gratifying for you?

Good luck.
No, ML worked fine. If people didn't like ML, there was plenty of guilds who ran PL. You don't even raid mythic, where ML is the most relevant. So again, here we have someone (an MVP at that), not running the primary content in which ML is a concern, talking about the lack of transparency and trust in ML. That's not why ML was removed. It was removed to #1 slow down prog, #2 try to casualize this game even more than it is. Bad guilds that abuse ML don't survive...blizzard didn't need to interfere in that process.


Obviously somebody is out of touch with the reality outside of their bubble which needs to be popped with saying yes ML was frequently abused although I personally don't think that should be the only reason to remove or limit it.

Top raiding guilds aren't judged by their fairness, objective morals, or being the "good guy" but by their success rates, popularity in terms of applicants, and revenue streams (in some cases). Master loot can be abused easily within that because that abuse or unfairness is highly subjective.

You propose the idea that abusive of ML would cause a mythic raiding team and its guild to fall apart although you don't specify at exactly what point that would happen. It's possible the team/guild is shaky enough that one slighted raider quitting or protesting could accomplish that. However it's just as likely that an individual raider could be replaced from a waiting list and the team/guild just continues on successfully.

It doesn't require Mythic progression to understand that, hell it doesn't even require being a player to understand that.
11/08/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Actasanc
Obviously somebody is out of touch with the reality outside of their bubble

The first step is acknowledgement...

11/08/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Actasanc
yes ML was frequently abused

No, ML wasn't frequently abused, unless you are incorrectly using either the word "frequently" or the word "abused". You haven't provided anything to substantiate your claim, so I'm not obligated to provide any substantiation to refute it.

I will, however, point out that ML required the consent of everyone involved, so correctly identified instances of abuse would be extremely limited to outright scams, which have always been actionable. Not getting awarded a piece of loot you believe you deserve by the person who you empowered to make loot decisions is never abuse.

Since the beginning of PL, people were always free to refuse to join ML raids, or start their own groups using PL if they wanted.

The removal of ML is exactly the sort of nanny-state developer involvement that I speak against constantly. Because some people didn't like raids that used ML, all people are now required to use the loot system those people prefer. Where there used to be a choice for players, now there is only PL. It should make no difference which loot system raid groups that you aren't a part of are using. If everyone in that group agrees to use ML, it's none of your business and it shouldn't have been any of Blizzard's business.

While the raw number of drops may be higher in PL, the inability to get the gear to where it will benefit the raid as a whole the most is what makes the gearing process slower than ML. Someone with 370 rings can't give a 375 wf ring with terrible stats to someone for whom those stats are optimal and who has 340 equipped. That's bad for both players and it's bad for the raid.

All that being said, this is the way it is, and it is unlikely to revert. Complaining about it isn't going to change it, so as always, players are free to choose between getting over it and moving on, or to stop raiding.
11/08/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Zothlar

All that being said, this is the way it is, and it is unlikely to revert. Complaining about it isn't going to change it, so as always, players are free to choose between getting over it and moving on, or to stop raiding.


That's just it. For better or worse, complaining DOES change things around here. Complaining about complaining on the other hand, never helps.
11/08/2018 03:56 PMPosted by Leafblight
For better or worse, complaining DOES change things around here.

It is completely unrealistic to expect that the complaints of ultimately a tiny minority of the player base on an internet forum are actually effecting changes in a multi-billion dollar game. Like most businesses, the bottom line is fiscal. Subscription numbers, and other participation metrics in the game will be the information used to make actual decisions.

It's naive to think that professionals with education and experience in the industry would be listening to people who don't know anything about game design, and truthfully, mostly don't know the difference between personal inconvenience and an actual game issue.
11/08/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Neall
Apologies. I didn't realize that you had to be currently raiding Mythic to comment in this thread. I didn't realize that being on the Council (rank below the GM but above the Officers) in a guild that has multiple raid teams including a mythic team didn't give me any insight into this issue. I didn't realize that (since I am top 1% in Achievements earned in game in the world and have helped thousands of people earn hundreds of thousands of achievements in game including mythic raiders and thus) since I know many mythic raid leaders well enough that I can discuss this and other issues with them that these relationships and conversations don't give me any insight into this issue.

Also, I didn't realize we were just making up our own reasons for why Master Loot was removed.

I'll see my way out of your thread.


No one cares about your achievements. No one cares that your on whatever the heck your guilds "council" is. No, those don't provide you any insight into it. You're a heroic raider, that's not impacted by the removal of ML. All I'm reading in this post is "I have green text, my opinion matters on everything"....because I'm sure you are quoting the same bs you put in your green text app. No one's making up reasons why ML was removed. If you can't see those were the reasons, your either just being a typical green text Blizzard brown noser, or again, you can't understand because you don't actually do the content.
11/09/2018 05:49 AMPosted by Dandelo
11/08/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Neall
Apologies. I didn't realize that you had to be currently raiding Mythic to comment in this thread. I didn't realize that being on the Council (rank below the GM but above the Officers) in a guild that has multiple raid teams including a mythic team didn't give me any insight into this issue. I didn't realize that (since I am top 1% in Achievements earned in game in the world and have helped thousands of people earn hundreds of thousands of achievements in game including mythic raiders and thus) since I know many mythic raid leaders well enough that I can discuss this and other issues with them that these relationships and conversations don't give me any insight into this issue.

Also, I didn't realize we were just making up our own reasons for why Master Loot was removed.

I'll see my way out of your thread.


No one cares about your achievements. No one cares that your on whatever the heck your guilds "council" is. No, those don't provide you any insight into it. You're a heroic raider, that's not impacted by the removal of ML. All I'm reading in this post is "I have green text, my opinion matters on everything"....because I'm sure you are quoting the same bs you put in your green text app. No one's making up reasons why ML was removed. If you can't see those were the reasons, your either just being a typical green text Blizzard brown noser, or again, you can't understand because you don't actually do the content.

Your post is no better. Your appeal to authority as a Mythic raider does not give you any extra insight on the benefits and drawbacks of ML or why ML was removed. Heroic raiders who used ML in Legion are fully aware of its benefits, and split running Heroic is not a foreign concept to even casual raiders, considering it’s been done since Cataclysm. And your guesses as to why ML was removed are merely that: guesses. You have not pointed to any evidence of Blizzard’s intent behind the change; you are simply speculating based on your personal experiences and biases.

Heroic raiders are feeling the pain of personal loot just as much as Mythic raiders are. So stop acting like your experience in Mythic Uldir gives you any unique insight on game design.

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