Sylvanas Victorious Over The Legion

Story Forum
11/08/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Kirango
11/08/2018 02:09 PMPosted by Pellex
...
I actually don't think so. The tone is sharply different.


I'd say the tone was similar, but the cinematic trailer was inspiring enough that we got whiplash when she swung even more Snidely in the actual content.

FOR THE HORDE!
Yay sylvanas is going to bring the horde together!
BURN IT
Or... not.
11/08/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Kirango
I'd say the tone was similar, but the cinematic trailer was inspiring enough that we got whiplash when she swung even more Snidely in the actual content.

Can you be more specific? When was Sylvanas "Snidely" in Legion, in your opinion? Also, "even more Snidely" compared to what? The trailer? Did you think she was "Snidely" in the trailer? I'm confused.
11/08/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Kirango
What part of using erudite vocabulary to call your interlocutors stupid liars isn't faux-intellectual ad-hominem?
There are two kinds of delusional Sylvanas fanboys in Story Forum: likeable ones like Deathisfinal and insufferable ones like Fondant.

Don't be like Fondant
11/08/2018 02:45 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
11/08/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Kirango
What part of using erudite vocabulary to call your interlocutors stupid liars isn't faux-intellectual ad-hominem?
There are two kinds of delusional Sylvanas fanboys in Story Forum: likeable ones like Deathisfinal and insufferable ones like Fondant.

Don't be like Fondant


I disagree. There are many types of people who like Sylvanas for various reasons.

Haven't seen a post from Fondant in bit. He made good sense in these senseless times.
11/08/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Pellex
11/08/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Kirango
I'd say the tone was similar, but the cinematic trailer was inspiring enough that we got whiplash when she swung even more Snidely in the actual content.

Can you be more specific? When was Sylvanas "Snidely" in Legion, in your opinion? Also, "even more Snidely" compared to what? The trailer? Did you think she was "Snidely" in the trailer? I'm confused.


Making deals with someone that's trying to kill us(technically Helya doesn't so much want to kill us at that moment as 'make us be dead,' but I'd argue the distinction is somewhat academic), exploit our work and risk our alliance with the Valarjar to pursue a personal agenda that is tangential to fighting the Legion (yes, we know in retrospect that Odyn doesn't give a crap, but in the moment, I just felt used). It was relatively minor(as much as slavery can ever be), and it was in-character, but my more idealistic characters were bothered, all the same.

In the trailer, she made me believe.

Then BtS came out, and all my most cynical fears were confirmed.

And then Warbringers dropped and it got worse.

Sorry, I recognize the original claim was perplexing in its brevity.

I was, of course, using "Snidely" for the sake of the "Whiplash" pun.
Haven't seen a post from Fondant in bit. He made good sense in these senseless times.

LIKE
QUOTE
hes on his maghar orc
By the same notion, "King" Mgrl Mgrl was also victorious over the Legion because he led a force that was hostile against the Burning Legion.

Murky and his tribe of murloc tadpoles.
11/08/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Cantaloupe
By the same notion, "King" Mgrl Mgrl was also victorious over the Legion because he led a force that was hostile against the Burning Legion.

Murky and his tribe of murloc tadpoles.


The Warchief we need.
11/08/2018 02:09 PMPosted by Pellex
11/08/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Ningjinq
...

Can one really say it was fun in Legion when evil plan Sylvanas was in the making there? Considering how integral her being made warchief was, her characterization in BFA was probably determined from the get go in Legion.

I actually don't think so. The tone is sharply different.


I’d have to go back and watch it, but they had the burning of Teldrassil written extremely far in advance.

For integral storylines such as Sylvanas in BfA that are the basis of entire xpacs and probably the next xpac, the story cannot change.

There’s a very good chance that whatever the fate of Sylvanas is in BFA, was determined way back in early Legion.
You know as leader of the horde that she gets credit for our achievements right? She leads the Horde, so she 'leads' the Horde to victory against the Legion. It doesn't matter what her actual actions are, it doesn't matter what shady stuff she might get up to. In the same way that Garrosh lead the horde to victory against the Lich King, Sylvanas lead us to victory against the Burning Legion.

I can understand a lot of players might not be happy about that depending on their personal opinions about both Sylvanas as a character as well as the way the story was presented in both Legion and BFA, but there's no changing that one basic fact.
11/08/2018 04:51 AMPosted by Droité
Also, I don't disagree with any of this. I will never argue that Sylvanas isn't good at waging war. That she isn't an expert at using the tools that she has at her disposal to their best effect. Sylvanas is hands down the best military tactician we've had as a Warchief, and I don't doubt that if we had followed her to the letter (even if we would have taken horrific losses, and done even more horrific things) we would have definitively defeated the Alliance .


Thanks for being reasonable.

11/08/2018 04:51 AMPosted by Droité
The issue is. She's a terrible person; she has a history of using people as disposable (yet valuable) tools for personal objectives; she may understand the cultures of the other Horde races, but she does not respect them; and despite what Der insists she's shown no evidence that she actually cares about any race other than her Forsaken (and even for them its in a deeply twisted way). She's turned the entire Horde into her "Bulwark Against the Infinite".


A few point, I didn't want to break out your post line by line:

- Part of Sylvanas putting herself first means she needs the Horde to be strong and prosperous. Sylvanas cares about the Horde but not like in a Mother Goose Orc type of way, but who can blame her? Caring deeply about the Horde and its various cultures was never a part of their deal.

- Without Sylvanas there would be no Horde.

- You speak of Sylvanas lack of respect for other cultures as if its something exclusive to Sylvanas and the Forsaken, but what about when the shoe is on the other feet?
11/08/2018 04:26 PMPosted by Kirango
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Can you be more specific? When was Sylvanas "Snidely" in Legion, in your opinion? Also, "even more Snidely" compared to what? The trailer? Did you think she was "Snidely" in the trailer? I'm confused.


Making deals with someone that's trying to kill us(technically Helya doesn't so much want to kill us at that moment as 'make us be dead,' but I'd argue the distinction is somewhat academic), exploit our work and risk our alliance with the Valarjar to pursue a personal agenda that is tangential to fighting the Legion (yes, we know in retrospect that Odyn doesn't give a crap, but in the moment, I just felt used). It was relatively minor(as much as slavery can ever be), and it was in-character, but my more idealistic characters were bothered, all the same.

Meh, Helya's dangerous, but she wasn't exactly hunting and hounding us across the face of the Broken Isles. At the time in the game, I didn't see her so much as an evil enemy, just a dangerous third party. So making a deal with her honestly didn't strike me as a horrifying thing for Sylvanas to do.

Anyway, the fact that it was tangential to fighting the Legion, and didn't take much resources away from that fight, meant that it didn't make me think she was a terrible leader. She was doing, let's say "morally grey" stuff on the side, but it was on the side--and it was early in her tenure, and it didn't even work. That could have been the starting point from which she learned developed into a better warchief for the whole Horde.

In the trailer, she made me believe.

Then BtS came out, and all my most cynical fears were confirmed.

And then Warbringers dropped and it got worse.

I agree with all this, but that's all in BfA, assuming you mean she "made you believe" in the BfA trailer. I still disagree that they had already decided that she was going to be like this when they were making the Legion trailer and intro cinematics. I agree with what Kazala said a few weeks ago:

09/27/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Kazala
If i go back and watch the Legion trailer in which Sylvanas acts selflessly to protect Varian... If i think back to the Broken Shore event in which Varian and Sylvanas treated one another with mutual respect while working toward a common goal... If i watch the ending cinematic for the Broken Shore in which Sylvanas holds the line to cover the Alliance flank until the very existence of the Horde is at stake and Vol'jin begs her not to let them perish... If i watch the succession cinematic in which Sylvanas promises Vol'jin the Horde will live on, and there's that dramatic time-lapse after she's unexpectedly named Warchief, where everyone else has left the room and Sylvanas is still standing in the same spot, staring at the throne...

It's impossible for me to view all that content in sequence and conclude that the folks who made any of it thought they were gearing up for a "lol Sylvanas is super duper evil" story arc.
Helya didn't have to hound us across the Broken Isles- at the time Sylvanas was making the deal, we were already in her grasp, and she did NOT want to let us go.

My issue with her attempt to enslave Eyir wasn't a matter of resources lost... it was the fact that our warchief was engaging in slavery, and was exploiting my work to do it. it wasn't out of character, but it was immoral.
All of her evil beats in Legion were, as I said, minor and in character, and in no way foreshadowed the dramatic leap off the slippery slope she engaged in in BfA. During Legion, I was... skeptical, but open to the idea of her actually becoming the Horde's Warchief, becoming a leader we could trust and take pride in.
11/09/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Kirango
Helya didn't have to hound us across the Broken Isles- at the time Sylvanas was making the deal, we were already in her grasp, and she did NOT want to let us go.

After we went voluntarily into her realm. To me, that just made her dangerous. And powerful. I dunno, it never even occurred to me to see Sylvanas's action as a personal betrayal. *shrug*

My issue with her attempt to enslave Eyir wasn't a matter of resources lost... it was the fact that our warchief was engaging in slavery, and was exploiting my work to do it. it wasn't out of character, but it was immoral.

Eyir and her val'kyr weren't free to start with, though--they're bound to Odyn. That's their purpose and job. It would have been just putting Sylvanas in Odyn's place.

I mean, I'm not saying your reactions are wrong. I just didn't share them. The question is, which of us had the reaction the devs were expecting? I'm truly not certain.
11/09/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Kirango
Helya didn't have to hound us across the Broken Isles- at the time Sylvanas was making the deal, we were already in her grasp, and she did NOT want to let us go.

After we went voluntarily into her realm. To me, that just made her dangerous. And powerful. I dunno, it never even occurred to me to see Sylvanas's action as a personal betrayal. *shrug*

My issue with her attempt to enslave Eyir wasn't a matter of resources lost... it was the fact that our warchief was engaging in slavery, and was exploiting my work to do it. it wasn't out of character, but it was immoral.

Eyir and her val'kyr weren't free to start with, though--they're bound to Odyn. That's their purpose and job. It would have been just putting Sylvanas in Odyn's place.

I mean, I'm not saying your reactions are wrong. I just didn't share them. The question is, which of us had the reaction the devs were expecting? I'm truly not certain.


Eyir and the Valkyr are loyal to Odyn. Yeah, he's basically a monster for building this death cult where everyone worships him, but they do worship him. I don't think it's morally neutral to force someone to stop serving a person they love and revere, and make them serve you instead.

As to which of us had the desired reaction? We have no way of knowing. We can't even really trust Blizzard spokespeople, if they weigh in.
11/09/2018 09:26 AMPosted by Kirango
Eyir and the Valkyr are loyal to Odyn. Yeah, he's basically a monster for building this death cult where everyone worships him, but they do worship him. I don't think it's morally neutral to force someone to stop serving a person they love and revere, and make them serve you instead.

It'll make them unhappy, but if the other person isn't especially a better or worse person than you are--and frankly, at the time I was playing Legion, I didn't see Odyn as better than Sylvanas, or Sylvanas as worse than Odyn--then it seems morally neutral to me. And Sylvanas wanting to save her people, which is how I read the situation even before BtS confirmed it, didn't strike me as a horrible motive or a horrible thing to ask the val'kyr to do.

Again, I'm not insisting that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just telling you how I reacted to the situation at the time, and why I didn't get indignant or recoil in horror. Frankly, I thought it was a pretty good example of moral greyness.

But you know, I've just noticed you're a warrior, which means your class campaign heavily featured the Halls of Valor. Maybe that gives you a more positive view of Odyn (and therefore a more negative view of Helya) than I got as a mage?
The factions were led to victory against the Legion by the faction leaders themselves, we just didn't see it. The invasions from pre-patch never actually stopped, and we got hints that the factions were waging war against the Legion literally everywhere that wasn't the Broken Isles.

If you look out the window on Argus, when you're able to see Azeroth, you see dozens of Legion ships heading towards the surface. Our efforts and the efforts of the orders were the most important, sure, but only a small part of the overall war. Hell, the reason we had the orders in the first place was because the factions were too tied up in battle against the Legion elsewhere to be able to commit any real forces. It's why most of our followers and order hall buddies were either already neutral characters or secondary leadership types.

So yeah, while she did take the jaunt out to Stormheim, Sylvanas did help fight the Legion elsewhere, it just happened offscreen.
11/08/2018 06:03 AMPosted by Ayaani
11/08/2018 05:28 AMPosted by Belandas
Other than failing to enslave Eyir in Stormheim, the Dark Lady actually didn't do all that much in Legion, as far as I remember.


Yup. Doesn't take long for the Sylvanas Defense Force to come out ready to defend MY DARK LADY at any occasion though.

I have never seen any other character with such a fervent, zealous fanbase in this franchise.

You'd think people would turn away from a clear villain who partakes in genocide and takes pleasure in it, but apparently not. I underestimated human edginess.


Apparently Sylvanas is so good at deception that it works even on real players.
You're more of a Male Human Paladin than I am.
11/09/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Kirango
Helya didn't have to hound us across the Broken Isles- at the time Sylvanas was making the deal, we were already in her grasp, and she did NOT want to let us go.

My issue with her attempt to enslave Eyir wasn't a matter of resources lost... it was the fact that our warchief was engaging in slavery, and was exploiting my work to do it. it wasn't out of character, but it was immoral.
All of her evil beats in Legion were, as I said, minor and in character, and in no way foreshadowed the dramatic leap off the slippery slope she engaged in in BfA. During Legion, I was... skeptical, but open to the idea of her actually becoming the Horde's Warchief, becoming a leader we could trust and take pride in.


As much as I’m going to enjoy finally kicking out Sylvanas for most of her evilness, the Eyir thing is one I think on the surface* can be justified.

Trying to keep the Forsaken from dying out is a good goal. While that alone doesn’t justify capturing her, I think there’s enough ambiguity about the nature of keepers that there’s an argument to be said she’d just be changing pay masters to arguably a more worthy cause.

Take Sylvanas out of it and repopulating the Forsaken if done appropriately (Eg, give people a choice and don’t go to war just to raise more) is probably a better use of Eyir’s powers than making soldiers for Odyn.

*By on the surface I mean her stated goal to repopulate the Forsaken may not have been her true goal.

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