The Importance of Proper Nomenclature

Story Forum
(8.1 Spoilers)

Lets be clear up front: The Forsaken do not mind control. We need to stop saying such. Blizzard has been clear enough now that we can give what they do proper definition. This is ego death. This is corruption. War time Forsaken conscripts come back fundamentally altered. They do not behave or believe as they once did. What the Forsaken do is destroy a person wholly. Mind, body, and soul. And bring them back into the damnation Sylvanas is deeply, personally terrified of. What they do is despicable. To the outside and their own perspectives.

https://youtu.be/b3RhdaMOqCk
This is not the same Sira. It has her memories, her resentments, but it is twisted. She expresses the anger she had at Maiev saddling her with caring for the Kaldorei, for leaving the Kaldorei when they needed Maiev, while she butchers the Kaldorei. She is a mockery of what Sira was on every level, and possibly most important: creating this version of Sira has irreversibly damned the soul of the one who was murdered. It is an utterly vile, craven act. And I'm finally behind it. It fits the modern Forsaken mold perfectly as it violates what once defined them: their hatred of those who forced the curse upon others.

So how is ego death internally consistent, you ask? What supports this besides self evident behavior? Where else do we see the dead twisted to betray what they once loved, "Willingly™"? The Emerald Nightmare. Sira acts no different from Elerethe Renferal. Which is a wonderful anchor point now that Blizzard has gone on record for ONCE, talking about how they are aware of and employ unreliable narration when having characters describe WoW's cosmology. What do I mean? They have said Thros, The Shadowlands, and The Emerald Nightmare are aspects of the same plane that straddles shadow and death. That embodies fear, death, decay, nightmare, corruption.

Sira has been corrupted by the Nightmare, a plane of death. The Forsaken are, wittingly or not, agents of Nightmare no better than the Satyr we just got done putting down one expac ago.
Except some Forsaken come back completely fine and showcase none of the absurd behavior demonstrated by Sira.
You've looked at two people acting mean, assumed that this meanness must necessarily suggest a connection between them, and drawn an absurd conclusion from this absurd assumption.
11/08/2018 07:41 PMPosted by Veloran
Except some Forsaken come back completely fine and showcase none of the absurd behavior demonstrated by Sira.
yeah a minority of them come back "completely fine"
Forsaken were supposed to be a culture abandoned by their people, but Tyrande and Maiev both plead with her to not fight them. Even sylvanas hesitates at the thought of being with her sisters.
11/08/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
11/08/2018 07:41 PMPosted by Veloran
Except some Forsaken come back completely fine and showcase none of the absurd behavior demonstrated by Sira.
yeah a minority of them come back "completely fine"


A Forsaken's behavior after they're raised is known to be heavily influenced by how they died.

Go figure, not that many people die without being under duress. Delaryn and Sira's last thoughts were "Screw Elune/Tyrande", respectively, so they come back in the extreme of those emotions.
could be possible that there is something corrupting the realm of death?
or.. maybe thros? thros is connected to that right? what if gorak tul is still alive? :o

well, i don't know.
The amusing thing is that this actually means the superstitious Stormwindians were right.

The Forsaken ARE just the broken imitations of the people they once knew, fundamentally changed into some horrid creature making a mockery of who they were in life by shambling about and doing the bidding of the Dark Lady.

At least that is the message Blizzard is sending with phrases like "death changes your perspective" in the context of once loyal soldiers turning on their own friends and family after being raised.
So they're effectively demons possessing corpses with access to the host bodies' memories. Got it.

Also couldn't this have gone in one of the other active threads we currently have on the subject?
I guess one person's "proper nomenclature" is someone else's "pedantic spin control to steer a narrative away from the obvious".
11/08/2018 07:41 PMPosted by Veloran
Except some Forsaken come back completely fine and showcase none of the absurd behavior demonstrated by Sira.


It's almost like different people are different
11/08/2018 07:41 PMPosted by Veloran
Except some Forsaken come back completely fine and showcase none of the absurd behavior demonstrated by Sira.


Necromancy, especially necromancy using Val'kyr is almost always shaped with some intent behind it.

Its the reason that Arthas Val'kyr were capable of using resurrection as not just a reward, but a punishment, through two extremely different forms of undead. Helya's Val'kyr twist and warp the souls and minds of her Kvaldir, making them completely subservient to her; despite retaining some sanity. Odyn and Eyir's Val'kyr also twist those they resurrect in a plethora of ways.

The point is ... "Intent" ... and how much power you're willing to back it up with. Sylvie risked two of her remaining PRIME Val'kyr on raising these NE's; and she's famous for using people as tools for specific objectives. I wonder, what is her intention with these NE's resurrections (and what is her objective) that she'd be willing to throw so much power at these new "Forsaken"?
11/08/2018 08:36 PMPosted by Duskharrow
I guess one person's "proper nomenclature" is someone else's "pedantic spin control to steer a narrative away from the obvious".
I think it’s different with the Night Elves because their souls work differently. Judging by the quests in Darkshore, while still dead the Night Elves can decide whether to join the Forsaken and be rezzed into undeath or not.

So for the Night Elves, I don’t think being Forsaken changes them as it did with Zelling.
This is a pretty big stretch, and very little to go off of
So if we assume all undead have brain damage, this still makes no sense. They should hate the forsaken as much as the NE if they are just rage machines. Or at the very lest the other living creature like goblins and orcs.

If we assume it's some kinda possession or they are whole new beings controlling their bodies then it makes no sense that people like zilling and stone are having super deep issues with everything they are doing.

It was confusing and lacked proper depth back in cata and here we are rehashing this same argument again, but on the next level because Maiev and Tyrande are not violently hating on them for being undead.
11/08/2018 10:28 PMPosted by Granfaloon
So if we assume all undead have brain damage, this still makes no sense.
Not all. Just the vast majority of the ones who are raised on the spot by their butchers. Key terms have been used, by Blizz, to emphasize this. The Forsaken are only getting those who prove willing. Knowing the place their souls go is the same place that turns dead spirits like Renferal's mad and against her people, it's no stretch at all in saying we now have a full picture of what is going on. The "willing" are that way in the exact same way Renferal and other druids of the Nightmare were "willing" to turn on their people. Their souls were touched by Nightmare and twisted. This isn't a stretch anymore. We now have word of god on WoW's cosmology stating the realms are the same, and extremely blatant characterization that is congruent with the claim to stand as an easy reference for comparison.

But you and others are right (I think it was you who brought this up in another thread anyway), this new cosmological lore backing the apparent strange behavior of Forsaken conscripts doesn't properly explain why the corrupted are fans of their murderer when they hated Arthas. (Again, will stress that there are Forsaken who come willingly and retain who they were. Just as some enter the Nightmare and are fortunate enough to leave uncorrupted. This thread is not about them but they do exist. Though, Blizz has shown them to be exeedingly rare under the circumstances the Kaldorei are being raised, and Sylvanas has had a bad habit of killing off this variety if they don't meet their baby consumption quota for the year.)

11/08/2018 08:06 PMPosted by Etheldald
could be possible that there is something corrupting the realm of death?
or.. maybe thros? thros is connected to that right? what if gorak tul is still alive? :o

well, i don't know.
I've actually got this major tinfoil hat theory that maybe Sylvanas' ultimate goal has become altering WoW's cosmology altogether, to get rid of this aspect of death. I think its possible, given we know she hates how "unfair" death is. That "hell" is the common grave in the universe's current set up. It might be that since the plane of death is adjacent to the void, the void has had sway over it. Maybe the corruptive, madness driving parts of the Shadowlands are just the void's fault. Maybe she's willing to raise an army by any means necessary to take her shot at fundamentally altering this fact of unlife for the future undead to have a real shot at actual freedom. Even if it means, ultimately, they revile her as a slaver and a monster, it might be worth it to her if she can give them an afterlife without losing who they were.

Who knows?
Why does anyone willing to play a literal skeleton object to the notion that they are evil? And why would anyone who does not play such a thing, object on their behalf?
11/09/2018 04:00 AMPosted by Valuelle
Why does anyone willing to play a literal skeleton object to the notion that they are evil? And why would anyone who does not play such a thing, object on their behalf?
I do not object on their behalf at all. What I am doing is an attempt to help the extremely large volume of people who have struggled with what exactly "death changes you" can entail.

Blizz has now given us the words to relate it better. I simply want to use them. "Death changes you." Okay, how? How much? Why do they sometimes act nothing like before? All common questions. The dead go to the shadowlands. Blizzard has said this is The Nightmare. So how do the dead get changed? The Nightmare changes them. How changed can The Nightmare make you? Wowpedia has a battery of examples of fallen druids killing their people and corrupting life. We now know the undead are changed by and come from the same place. This is no leap in logic. This is by the numbers connect the dots.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum