Stormheim was justified

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11/12/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Kisin
Sylvanas outright tells the player that her mission with Eyir is something she and a handful of loyal Dark Rangers are doing separate, and that the bulk of the Forsaken there are to aid the PC in their mission to save the world.
she climbs heaven in a very diablo-esque way to enslave the archangel to create an endless army of angels to sustain herself for eternity. if she truly gave a flying !@#$ about the world she'd be getting the aegis, not on her little side mission to become independent of the horde
To me, a possibly more interesting debate is: to what lengths is it acceptable to go for the Forsaken to repopulate?

How far is too far?

Particularly since this is not something that you can draw irl examples amongst humans.
11/12/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Akiyass
Get out of here with your neo-marxist BS.


God damnit. I was on your side until this.
[she climbs heaven in a very diablo-esque way to enslave the archangel to create an endless army of angels to sustain herself for eternity. if she truly gave a flying !@#$ about the world she'd be getting the aegis, not on her little side mission to become independent of the horde


Sylvanas also being wrong for doing what she was doing doesn't make Genn right.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The point is most of the people Genn killed were there to fight the Legion. He killed them anyway.
11/12/2018 05:54 PMPosted by Kisin
Two wrongs don't make a right.
That depends on how you see Sylvanas in the first place. I believe she is an enemy to all living races on Azeroth.

To you, Genn was in the wrong but not to me. Had she succeeded, who would stop her? She'd be able to kill all the humans of Azeroth and raise them. She'd also be able to raise dead blood elves. The only thing that stopped her from doing so in SoO was Lor'themar telling her to piss off. With an army of infinite soldiers she wouldn't need the Horde anymore.
Basically, the took the part of Legion I hated most and turned it into a god damn expac.
11/12/2018 06:42 PMPosted by Triskeriaki
That depends on how you see Sylvanas in the first place. I believe she is an enemy to all living races on Azeroth.


It has nothing to do with how I see Sylvanas. Genn did not know what Sylvanas was doing. The fact it turned out to be a good thing doesn't erase that his initial assault was a terrible move that craps on Horde sovereignty and got hundreds of loyal Horde and Alliance killed.

At the very least he could have held back his forces, waited until he had more intelligence, and then hunt Sylvanas personally without bombing the Horde's efforts to get the Aegis and save the world.
11/12/2018 06:45 PMPosted by Grandblade
Basically, the took the part of Legion I hated most and turned it into a god damn expac.
Oh, if only BfA could be Genn punching Sylvanas instead of what we have now
11/12/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Grandblade
Oh sh!t, we're pulling out the Marx words!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNLvlH5hqIM


You are a delight.
The only thing that justifies Stormheim is sh*tty writing.

"Okay. The Worgen are finally doing things after 3 expansions. Any ideas on where to start?"

"Kamikaze the Skyfire during the largest Legion invasion of all time?"

"Genius!"
11/12/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Kisin
11/12/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Grandblade
While you bring up many good points - I find myself largely agreeing with you - I think Greymane's revenge was a bit more than petty given his history with Sylvanas.


In my view all revenge is petty when prioritized against the survival of the world.

I guess you could say it's a druid thing.
I mean, there's a pretty solid case that a survivor of one of Sylvanas' many holocausts may view their vengeance in eliminating her as conveniently in line with prioritizing the survival of the world.

Much as Sylvanas herself did when she devoted every resource at her disposal - including harvesting innocent humans as resources - to the creation of a plague that, conveniently, could wipe out all life as well as secure her vengeance. And then used that blight after an existential threat arrived on the scene in the form of Deathwing, to raze a kingdom to the ground. For not even revenge's sake, but for field testing her life extermination capabilities.

"The woman is a danger to the survival of the world." Is not an unfair in-universe declaration or belief to hold.
11/12/2018 06:52 PMPosted by Kisin
Genn did not know what Sylvanas was doing.
See, looking at this in terms of ground level character perspective, I don't think he needed to know. The man is actually oddly level headed compared to other similarly revenge oriented victims present in Blizzard storytelling. Sylvanas didn't know what Arthas was up to in Icecrown for those five or six years she was developing her plague. Not until he sent his little hero bait in the form of the pre-WotLK invasion events. She killed countless civilians to test that blight, from farmers in lands she held, to tribes of Vrukul. Wholesale slaughter. And I don't count her needing to know what Arthas was up to as necessary motivation for her thirst for revenge. Decimating her people and destroying her life was enough. And she did the same to Genn. She was his Arthas.

I mean, there's a pretty solid case that a survivor of one of Sylvanas' many holocausts may view their vengeance in eliminating her as conveniently in line with prioritizing the survival of the world.


It doesn't matter what Genn's perspective is. In his mind I do not doubt he believed what he was doing was justified. If he didn't he wouldn't have acted. Everyone has their own internal justifications for the things they do, but that doesn't make them right. Even if Greymane thought he HAD to destroy the Forsaken immediately or Sylvanas would destroy the world we know he was wrong to attack those Forsaken because they weren't involved in Sylvanas' plans and were there to fight the Legion.

As you point out, Sylvanas has loads of personal justification for her actions. She believed that war was inevitable, therefore she HAD to invade Ashenvale. She believed that the night elves needed to lose hope so she HAD to burn down Teldrassil. Sylvanas has been operating under the assumption that not doing these things will result in the total destruction of the Horde.

But I'd be hard pressed to say Sylvanas was right to burn those night elven civilians alive. Just like I am saying Genn wasn't really justified in thinking he was saving the world by attacking the Forsaken and getting a lot of innocent soldiers killed.

Let's change the scenario again. What if Sylvanas' plan was to steal the LEGION'S power for herself? Genn just rammed his entire army into a Forsaken force that was actively trying to weaken the Burning Legion, thereby becoming an unwitting pawn for Sargeras.

Genn was wrong to act the way he did. There were a thousand possible scenarios, and if there is even a small chance that what you're about to do could result in the end of the world you should absolutely stop and think about it before you rush in.

Sylvanas wasn't going to obtain infinite power just by setting foot on Stormheim. Genn had time to actually wait and watch and gather intel. He didn't need to kamikaze the Alliance's last airships into a Forsaken fleet in order to stop Sylvanas.
11/13/2018 01:28 AMPosted by Kisin
It doesn't matter what Genn's perspective is.
Oh. Then I misinterpreted what you were doing. I had read your posts as an attempt to dissect his actions from a low vantage rather than our bird's eye, more objective view. Because objectively speaking, he stopped her from enslaving an ally. Not much else.

Looking further at your post here though, I feel things are just unraveling further. In part because I get the impression we view rationalization and justification a bit differently. I also tend to give victims a bit of leeway in a narrative perspective that I generally don't in a more real world approach.

What I mean is:
1. Genn's actions were against his butcher. I liken this to Sylvanas and Arthas very specifically because I, admittedly, see them as like actions from both my removed perspective, and from the vantages of the respective victims. As such, for the sakes of their narratives, I am forgiving of the bad things they do, to certain degrees, to accomplish their goal of removing the monster that hurt them. This means to some extent, I feel Sylvanas in the narrative is easy to rationalize for, and even maybe justify, some of the atrocities she pulled to develop her revenge juice.

2. A problem in comparing them, which I feel bubbles up further into your post here, is intent and the victim's understanding of what they were giving up in terms of their ethical stance to achieve their revenge. This is where I feel the comparability falls apart a bit, but you seem to indicate you feel are still somewhat equal (I REALLY worry on this point I am presuming too much so please, if this feels off base, I apologize.) Or are at least you feel more ready to condemn Genn for the results of his actions than I am. I simply don't see his attempt for revenge to be comparable to intentional civilian melting (speaking pre-Wrath, not Kaldorei genocide), in terms of ethical violation. Crucially, Genn's potential resultant damage from his actions is inadvertent, where Sylvanas was routinely portrayed as pleased by the pursuit. She reveled in doing harm to the innocent as she pursued vengeance against her innocence being lost. I strongly feel this is a very important difference between the two characters, even as I myself beg the comparison of the two in their victimhood and revenge arcs.

3. Toward the end of your post you double back to the intial point of victim motivation re: their understanding of their victimizer's current actions, which I am still satisfied with what I said regarding the matter and can agree to disagree. I do not feel Genn or Sylvanas needed to know what their monsters were up to, to have reasonable justification for the pursuit of their nemesis.

I would offer it seems we disagree on the point of Genn's inadvertent and potential wrongdoing vs Sylvanas' intentional wrongdoing. Also, since I invoked the whataboutism, I don't expect you to further justify how you feel. Fair's fair and I'm not saying I feel you're wrong, only that I disagree. Addressing what you said more in the spirit of how you actually framed what you said: I do disagree with Genn's degree of "fault" as you seem to see it. But not overtly. From an outside perspective, regardless of his results happening to be more or less universally beneficial, it was still reckless and poorly timed.
11/13/2018 03:00 AMPosted by Serevèn
Oh. Then I misinterpreted what you were doing. I had read your posts as an attempt to dissect his actions from a low vantage rather than our bird's eye, more objective view. Because objectively speaking, he stopped her from enslaving an ally. Not much else.

Looking further at your post here though, I feel things are just unraveling further. In part because I get the impression we view rationalization and justification a bit differently. I also tend to give victims a bit of leeway in a narrative perspective that I generally don't in a more real world approach.


I suppose you could say I am looking at it from a low perspective with the expectation that the character try to look at it from a high perspective. Genn, with the information he had, did not have proper justification for attacking Sylvanas if he were making a rational decision that was meant to minimize risk to the war effort against the Legion.

It is clear Genn saw what he did as right. What I am arguing is that he should have stepped back and recognized that now was not the time for his revenge. There were more important foes to fight, and he can keep an eye on Sylvanas without getting hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers killed.

1. I can understand why you have this perspective. For me, when it comes to the potential survival of the world, I don't factor victim status into the equation of right and wrong. There is a lot more at stake than Genn's revenge or Sylvanas' punishment. This might make Genn's actions sympathetic to me, but not justified.

2. You admitted as much in your last paragraph, but this comparison is your creation and was never really a part of my original post. I've never said Genn is worse than Sylvanas, only that I can't say he was justified in his actions against her during the events of Stormheim because of how much damage he ended up doing to the effort to retrieve the Aegis. Damage that was entirely preventable if he'd been more patient and waited until he had more intelligence to make his decision on.

I may have made the assumption that it went without saying that Sylvanas was worse when I was comparing them. There are degrees of condemnation, but I do condemn both for their actions despite their internal rationalization and emotional justification.

3. We can agree to disagree on that point. I feel making any decision without proper intelligence is a bad move, and that is made much worse when the fate of the planet is the stakes we are dealing with. When you make a brash decision that could influence the way a war of total annihilation against aliens from another planet goes, that decision isn't only effecting you and your monster. You could be sacrificing everyone on the planet.

It warrants a little more forethought and caution.
Stormheim is literally the Horde's Camp Tarajo 2.0.
The thing that weirds me out about Stormheim is Sylvanas stating to the Alliance that if they manage to escape Helya they'll see "The Birth of a New Age"; she also does not mention this to the Horde at all (if that didn't make you suspicious as hell).

Seriously, Genn may be an !@#, but I am glad that he stopped her enslaving Eyir. The absurd amount of damage she could do with infinite Val'kyr is just stupid.

"Hey WoW players, did you all want to play Forsaken characters? Welp, you're going to ... you should thank Sylvie for that. Remember to worship her like a Goddess and scream "Death to the Living" (and yes, I recently ran into a Forsaken in Stormheim that yelled this, so its NOT just a Putress thing).
11/13/2018 04:05 PMPosted by Ivalesse
Stormheim is literally the Horde's Camp Tarajo 2.0.


We will never stop hearing about it.

*Horde burns thousands of innocent people including children alive*
"Um but sweaty what bout stormheim? :)"
11/13/2018 04:24 PMPosted by Savanovic
11/13/2018 04:05 PMPosted by Ivalesse
Stormheim is literally the Horde's Camp Tarajo 2.0.


We will never stop hearing about it.

*Horde burns thousands of innocent people including children alive*
"Um but sweaty what bout stormheim? :)"


That's what this thread is for. It's to put deluded Horde in their place when they deliberately ignore that no one in the Horde reached out to the Alliance to say "Hey dude it wasn't our fault".

They were riding their high horses and paid for it.

Plus Sylvanas made it even worse by acting like a petty Arthas lite NPC going off in her own selfish way.
I do not agree that what Genn did was right. From a meta and logically strategic view, all he did was jeopardize things by putting his need for revenge before the more important matters (although if he hadn't intervened, Sylvannas would have more or less acquired immortality and then Genn would lose any hope or chance of exacting revenge at that point if she succeeded). It's this bit about his personality that infuriates me about him. Especially since I love Worgen and having this dude with anger issues, who would rather throw a ton of men to the slaughter for his own personal vendettas is an abhorrent flaw he has. That is to say, while I don't agree with what he did, I can understand why he did it. It was out of passion. Sylvannas is essentially the same way. It could be hard to work side by side with the one responsible for destroying your entire kingdom and afflicting the majority of your subjects with a curse that was so bad that the Kaldorei needed to intervene because they felt sorry for them.

Tl;dr: I don't agree with what he did, it was a stupid move. But I understand why he did it. Sometimes it's hard to have a clear and logical state of mind, when the one responsible for destroying nearly everything in your life is essentially given a "get out of jail" card and is not held accountable at all for what she did.
11/14/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Calixto
I do not agree that what Genn did was right. From a meta and logically strategic view, all he did was jeopardize things by putting his need for revenge before the more important matters (although if he hadn't intervened, Sylvannas would have more or less acquired immortality and then Genn would lose any hope or chance of exacting revenge at that point if she succeeded). It's this bit about his personality that infuriates me about him. Especially since I love Worgen and having this dude with anger issues, who would rather throw a ton of men to the slaughter for his own personal vendettas is an abhorrent flaw he has. That is to say, while I don't agree with what he did, I can understand why he did it. It was out of passion. Sylvannas is essentially the same way. It could be hard to work side by side with the one responsible for destroying your entire kingdom and afflicting the majority of your subjects with a curse that was so bad that the Kaldorei needed to intervene because they felt sorry for them.


Genn already had anger issues before he became a Worgen, but the Worgen element made it so much worse. Its called a Worgen Blood-Rage and it is one of the side-effects of becoming one. Beyond that, you don't think Sylvie jeopardized things? Making a deal with a vile, vindictive, clearly effected by the Curse of Flesh Helya and assaulting and attempting to enslave another Titan Keeper who Odyn (the guy who had the Aegis of Aggrimar) relies on? !@#$, do you understand how absolutely dangerous Sylvanas would be to ALL OF LIFE if she managed to get the ability to create infinite Val'kyr from the dead? Assuming we managed to even survive the Legion without potentially the aid of Odyn or a Pillar of Creation.

His reasons were garbage, but his results where worth it. Sylvanas cannot be trusted with that kind of power, especially when she goes off spouting nonsense about "The Birth of a New Age" while dealing with Helya.

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