What niche is AoE capped at 5 targets?

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
I'd love to know what gave rise to this, we see a lot of it in BfA. Fury Warriors, Marks Hunters, WW Monk stacks stopping at 5, Ele Shamans, maybe more?

I don't understand why this number is supposed to feel good. From what I can tell our stuff that is capped at 5 targets isn't any better than other classes that can hit everything. And it's not like it excels at 2-3 targets either. What niche is this supposed to be for?
I don't believe there is any stated reason. Perhaps its to differentiate between limited range effects for melee vs grander elemental type effects (blizzard, starfall, reign of fire). More concerning for me i guess is why 3-5 (MM, Enh?) and not 2-5.
I can tell you it doesnt feel good when a outlaw rogue pops bladeflurry and destroys the meters meanwhile its hard to keep up. I guess some classes are just better than others. I find it hilarious also that prot warrior does more AOE damage than the other dps specs. TBH I want gladiator stance back so I can sword and board dps.
If a classes aoe is limited to 2/3-5/6 targets then the damage that is dealt should be WAY higher maybe even 100% of the damage to compensate for the limited aoe otherwise our niche is "dealing damage to less targets for lower overall damage"
11/13/2018 04:32 PMPosted by Thyssalia
If a classes aoe is limited to 2/3-5/6 targets then the damage that is dealt should be WAY higher maybe even 100% of the damage to compensate for the limited aoe otherwise our niche is "dealing damage to less targets for lower overall damage"


I'm sorry, you made sense. We will have to nerf you instead.
I figure this is a poor attempt at copying other MMOs balance for AOE.

SWTOR caps ALL AOE at 8 targets, or 1 +7 cleave/spread
FF14 balanced their most powerful AOE in their last exp, with 1 target taking 100% damage, 2nd taking 90%, 3rd Taking 80% and reduced with only target 1 being controllable.

The only other thing I could figure is to limit Mythic + groups from pulling 90% of the dungeon trash at once, not that its stops high end groups from doing this anyways.
Either all need to be capped in some manner or none at all. Balancing AoE with the current system is doomed to failure. You can still have specs with more AoE spells to use just don't let unlimited ones fly past everyone.
I would like to see a system where AOE niches are consistently designed.

Something like, just off the top of my head:

Arms Warriors passively cleave to 2 targets at ~no additional cost. Any fight where you can stack two targets up for much of the fight (ex. boss + add), Passive Sweeping Strikes just results in your Arms Warriors dealing ~200% of single target damage whenever they can be in melee range of 2 things.

Fury Warriors 4 target cleave at virtually no additional cost, likely through the Whirlwind = Cleaving Rampage/Raging Blow mechanic. So on a 4 target sustained cleave fight (constant adds trickling in), your Fury Warriors are just going to dominate that style of fight.

Both Warriors have 1m Bladestorm's for uncapped massive burst AOE. Both Warriors have NO other sustained AOE. They have two incredibly powerful multi-target niches - either 1m burst cycles with Bladestorm - and their passive cleave damage. But I think you take away endless sustained many target AOE Whirlwinds from them both. Or at the very least, you put Whirlwind-esque talent adjacent to Bladestorm, so they can have either burst AOE (Bladestorm) or sustained (Whirlwind), but not both at once. That's how you create a niche.

I think Demon Hunters you do something similar. Eye Beam is a 30s cooldown uncapped burst AOE, similar to Bladestorm but hitting for less on a shorter more responsive cooldown.

I think you can also give Havoc something similar to Warriors, where they ~innately cleave nearby melee targets. They dual wield warglaives, they're going to hit everything near them all the time anyways.

Feral provides a good melee contrast. You give them a choice between Brutal Slash 3x charges for Bladestorm-esque burst AOE, or they can take something that say, helps them multi-dot Rake/Rips on nearby targets. Maybe you give them Thrash for a short cooldown uncapped but low damage AOE for clearing little trash spiderlings, but no Swipe sustained AOE damage, etc.

Let's say Ret & Enh though, you give them endless sustained AOE damage, but no AOE burst. So Ret can slap down holy light pool damage or aura or something, that they can just constantly maintain. Enh can slap down an AOE damage totem & 8s Crash Lightning's on an 8s cooldown. On any fight where you need constant AOE damage for long periods of time, that's where Ret/Enh shine, but multi-target cleave isn't their thing - they instead become better at single target bursting priority targets (and then, you make them good at that).

Shadow Priests. We're good at keeping powerful dots rolling on ~3 targets simultaneously, we effectively deal ~250% of single target damage, barely paying a cost to roll DoTs on secondary & tiertiary targets. But this isn't a fast process, we have to get out DoTs up and keep them up for awhile to see this pay off - great in council fights and sustained 3-target cleave. I think you also give Shadow some occasional uncapped AOE, like making Shadow Crash baseline and slapping 3 charges on it (effectively Brutal Slash). Then you take away Mind Sear, Dark Void, etc - we can't mass spread dots with Dark Void anymore, and we have effectively zero sustained AOE damage. But we can burst AOE, and we can multi-dot.

Destruction Mages. Kind of the opposite. No burst AOE at all. But they can Bane of Havoc cleave 2 targets for 200% of single target damage at ~no cost. You give them Rain of Fire as well, endless sustained AOE damage, but no burst AOE damage, and virtually no 3-10 cleave except for Rain of Fire.

That's how you create meaningful niches. Now, if you want to create some diversity or add agency to the players and ensure you don't just sit all your Destruction Mages when you need burst AOE for a fight - you make those adjacent talent options. So they can pick one thing or the other, but not both. Ex. Bane of Havoc adjacent to Chaos Bomb - swaps Chaos Bolt to explode AOE on target hits for uncapped AOE small/frequent bursts. They can have 2-target cleave, or Chaos Bomb for Mythic AOE, but not both, etc.
11/14/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Phuumyn
Either all need to be capped in some manner or none at all. Balancing AoE with the current system is doomed to failure. You can still have specs with more AoE spells to use just don't let unlimited ones fly past everyone.
They are, technically (last I knew anyhow). The cap is 20 targets however so hasn't really affected anything since the remake of Onyxia.
11/14/2018 06:44 PMPosted by Lolaan
11/14/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Phuumyn
Either all need to be capped in some manner or none at all. Balancing AoE with the current system is doomed to failure. You can still have specs with more AoE spells to use just don't let unlimited ones fly past everyone.
They are, technically (last I knew anyhow). The cap is 20 targets however so hasn't really affected anything since the remake of Onyxia.


Good point i forgot about the 20 cap, however that is still far to high when you have specs capped at 5.
11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Arms Warriors passively cleave to 2 targets at ~no additional cost. Any fight where you can stack two targets up for much of the fight (ex. boss + add), Passive Sweeping Strikes just results in your Arms Warriors dealing ~200% of single target damage whenever they can be in melee range of 2 things.


Sweeping Strikes has a cooldown, and there's no 2 target cleave in the game that does 100% damage to the cleaved target. Bane and SS are 60%.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Both Warriors have 1m Bladestorm's for uncapped massive burst AOE. Both Warriors have NO other sustained AOE. They have two incredibly powerful multi-target niches - either 1m burst cycles with Bladestorm - and their passive cleave damage. But I think you take away endless sustained many target AOE Whirlwinds from them both. Or at the very least, you put Whirlwind-esque talent adjacent to Bladestorm, so they can have either burst AOE (Bladestorm) or sustained (Whirlwind), but not both at once. That's how you create a niche.


Bladestorm is 1 minute for Fury, 1.5 minute baseline for Arms. Arms requires Warbreaker to have a strong bladestorm.

Arms does not use Whirlwind unless there's 5 targets up (without sweeping strikes), despite it being a baseline ability. Arms does not have sustained cleave, unless it talents into cleave, which breaks the strong bladestorm due to it being on the same talent row.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
I think Demon Hunters you do something similar. Eye Beam is a 30s cooldown uncapped burst AOE, similar to Bladestorm but hitting for less on a shorter more responsive cooldown.


Except all of these abilities are used in single target. Demon Hunters tend to spec demonic in this raid\M+ environment so the cost of holding off on these abilities is quite high.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Fury Warriors 4 target cleave at virtually no additional cost, likely through the Whirlwind = Cleaving Rampage/Raging Blow mechanic. So on a 4 target sustained cleave fight (constant adds trickling in), your Fury Warriors are just going to dominate that style of fight.


Er, no.

Arms has 0 sustained cleave on more than 2 target. Fury isn't even great at cleaving on 5 target, never has been. WW procs on all abilities, not just rampage and raging blow. Adds trickling in is irrelevant, it's more relevant and a boon for specs that generate additional resources or have their AE damage completely free for doing what they already do. Using WW is less RPS and leads to less rampages, so I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Let's say Ret & Enh though, you give them endless sustained AOE damage, but no AOE burst. So Ret can slap down holy light pool damage or aura or something, that they can just constantly maintain. Enh can slap down an AOE damage totem & 8s Crash Lightning's on an 8s cooldown.


Ret never takes Conc because it competes against Wake of Ashes, a talent that's required for ST.
You are aware that divine storm uses holy power right? It's not free.
Liquid Magma totem is an elemental ability, not enhance ability. That's also a talent, so it's not free.
Crash Lightning is 6 seconds CD, not 8 and causes their stormstrike\lava lash to cleave, their burst AOE is extremely high depending on RNG, which RNG is 99.9% of Enhance complaints right now.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Destruction Mages. Kind of the opposite. No burst AOE at all. But they can Bane of Havoc cleave 2 targets for 200% of single target damage at ~no cost. You give them Rain of Fire as well, endless sustained AOE damage, but no burst AOE damage, and virtually no 3-10 cleave except for Rain of Fire.


Destruction is not a mage spec, it's a warlock spec.
Destruction has access to both Cataclysm and Channel Demonfire, giving it extremely strong burst AoE. RoF doesn't hit that hard, and comes at the cost of using core resources away from using Chaos Bolt.
Havok is not 200% effective damage.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Ex. Bane of Havoc adjacent to Chaos Bomb


Chaos bomb is not an ability

Literally everything you said in your post is wrong, and 100% ignorant to how those specs function.
11/14/2018 09:59 PMPosted by Disventi
11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Arms Warriors passively cleave to 2 targets at ~no additional cost. Any fight where you can stack two targets up for much of the fight (ex. boss + add), Passive Sweeping Strikes just results in your Arms Warriors dealing ~200% of single target damage whenever they can be in melee range of 2 things.


Sweeping Strikes has a cooldown, and there's no 2 target cleave in the game that does 100% damage to the cleaved target. Bane and SS are 60%.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Both Warriors have 1m Bladestorm's for uncapped massive burst AOE. Both Warriors have NO other sustained AOE. They have two incredibly powerful multi-target niches - either 1m burst cycles with Bladestorm - and their passive cleave damage. But I think you take away endless sustained many target AOE Whirlwinds from them both. Or at the very least, you put Whirlwind-esque talent adjacent to Bladestorm, so they can have either burst AOE (Bladestorm) or sustained (Whirlwind), but not both at once. That's how you create a niche.


Bladestorm is 1 minute for Fury, 1.5 minute baseline for Arms. Arms requires Warbreaker to have a strong bladestorm.

Arms does not use Whirlwind unless there's 5 targets up (without sweeping strikes), despite it being a baseline ability. Arms does not have sustained cleave, unless it talents into cleave, which breaks the strong bladestorm due to it being on the same talent row.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
I think Demon Hunters you do something similar. Eye Beam is a 30s cooldown uncapped burst AOE, similar to Bladestorm but hitting for less on a shorter more responsive cooldown.


Except all of these abilities are used in single target. Demon Hunters tend to spec demonic in this raid\M+ environment so the cost of holding off on these abilities is quite high.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Fury Warriors 4 target cleave at virtually no additional cost, likely through the Whirlwind = Cleaving Rampage/Raging Blow mechanic. So on a 4 target sustained cleave fight (constant adds trickling in), your Fury Warriors are just going to dominate that style of fight.


Er, no.

Arms has 0 sustained cleave on more than 2 target. Fury isn't even great at cleaving on 5 target, never has been. WW procs on all abilities, not just rampage and raging blow. Adds trickling in is irrelevant, it's more relevant and a boon for specs that generate additional resources or have their AE damage completely free for doing what they already do. Using WW is less RPS and leads to less rampages, so I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Let's say Ret & Enh though, you give them endless sustained AOE damage, but no AOE burst. So Ret can slap down holy light pool damage or aura or something, that they can just constantly maintain. Enh can slap down an AOE damage totem & 8s Crash Lightning's on an 8s cooldown.


Ret never takes Conc because it competes against Wake of Ashes, a talent that's required for ST.
You are aware that divine storm uses holy power right? It's not free.
Liquid Magma totem is an elemental ability, not enhance ability. That's also a talent, so it's not free.
Crash Lightning is 6 seconds CD, not 8 and causes their stormstrike\lava lash to cleave, their burst AOE is extremely high depending on RNG, which RNG is 99.9% of Enhance complaints right now.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Destruction Mages. Kind of the opposite. No burst AOE at all. But they can Bane of Havoc cleave 2 targets for 200% of single target damage at ~no cost. You give them Rain of Fire as well, endless sustained AOE damage, but no burst AOE damage, and virtually no 3-10 cleave except for Rain of Fire.


Destruction is not a mage spec, it's a warlock spec.
Destruction has access to both Cataclysm and Channel Demonfire, giving it extremely strong burst AoE. RoF doesn't hit that hard, and comes at the cost of using core resources away from using Chaos Bolt.
Havok is not 200% effective damage.

11/14/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Yvaelle
Ex. Bane of Havoc adjacent to Chaos Bomb


Chaos bomb is not an ability

Literally everything you said in your post is wrong, and 100% ignorant to how those specs function.


Did you miss the part at the top of the post where they said these were conceptual ideas off the top of their head for an aoe system / philosophy that could work, and not things already in the game?

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