What reason do they have to stay?

Story Forum
Stormwind has been one of the Alliance’s, if not THE most, humanitarian and generous nations. We are stretched super thin, and giving all we can to protect our allies. We cannot be everywhere, and if we stretch even more, we risk losing it all. Anduin is right.
Saiphas, you're acting as if Warcraft is not a narrative delivery mechanism. You can try to frame me as obtuse while parading exclusively in your own mentality all you want, though. I said the narrative has not focused on Arathi at all during BfA. I've also reference comics, books, and all other media throughout my posting in general on all my time on these boards. And my point remains. The fighting over Arathi has never been brought up or referenced or made a narrative focus in the game, outside of the game, in any media Blizzard has chosen to deliver the narrative they have wanted to deliver. You can keep avoiding my point all you want, and you can keep your chest puffed out all you want, my point doesn't change.

Nor did I ever say Anduin focusing on his strategy to prevent the Sylvanas from gaining advantage in the war was wrong. I said Anduin does not understand what the Night Elves are going through. Because he doesn't. He has grown up in a Stormwind rebuilt as if it was never burned and has never experience the loss of his home. That you want to bring up Stormwind's past has no impact on Anduin's actual experiences or state of mind.

I refuse to acknowledge Arathi because Blizzard has refused to put any narrative effort into it. I'm not going to fill in the blanks for Blizzard and pretend we were actually given a reason to be there like you have.

11/14/2018 08:06 PMPosted by Rothiron
11/14/2018 07:51 PMPosted by Amadis
If anything, the Night Elves forcing the Horde to draw forces to Darkshore probably helps the Alliance be even more successful at all other fronts as well.
In a hypothetical event where after the Night Elves secede from the Alliance

I do not believe in any hypothetical event where the Night Elves secede from the Alliance.

Maybe you both missed that I said the Night Elves should stay? You're both responding to me as if I said the Night Elves should leave.
11/14/2018 08:27 PMPosted by Saiphas
Naw Zerde, the Alliance was definitely losing before 8.1, both framed in BfL and though elegy/a good war. It is part of the reason Sylvanas wants to strike, because the Alliance has not recovered as fast as the Horde did from the Legion


We have no basis for comparison, we know the Alliance was hard press for soldiers, that doesnt mean the Horde was not hard press either. At best, Sylvanas may not have cared because she might be able to raise the dead, but I am pretty sure the Alliance gave as good as it got and bloodied the Horde enough they were said to be fighting "desperately" to keep Arathi(because if it fell, all of Northern Lordearon would to do Alliance)
Do you know what happened to Stormgarde, Silvermoon, Gilneas, Gnomeragan and Kul Tiras after they left the Alliance/didnt ask for help?(until it was Retconned in Warcraft that they never left the Alliance and was totally loyal to it, ironic) They all fell apart and were all but destroyed, with not an ally to turn to for help.
I don't recall any old lore about Gnomeregan and Kul Tiras actually leaving the Alliance, at least not until the Daelin incident in the latter's case. And technically, Silvermoon and Gilneas both still left the Alliance with some retconned political manipulation sprinkled in. Though the sudden collapse of Lordaeron (logically) kicked everyone into gear.
Saiphas, you're acting as if Warcraft is not a narrative delivery mechanism. You can try to frame me as obtuse while parading exclusively in your own mentality all you want, though. I said the narrative has not focused on Arathi at all during BfA. I've also reference comics, books, and all other media throughout my posting in general on all my time on these boards. And my point remains. The fighting over Arathi has never been brought up or referenced or made a narrative focus in the game, outside of the game, in any media Blizzard has chosen to deliver the narrative they have wanted to deliver. You can keep avoiding my point all you want, and you can keep your chest puffed out all you want, my point doesn't change.

Nor did I ever say Anduin focusing on his strategy to prevent the Sylvanas from gaining advantage in the war was wrong. I said Anduin does not understand what the Night Elves are going through. Because he doesn't. He has grown up in a Stormwind rebuilt as if it was never burned and has never experience the loss of his home. That you want to bring up Stormwind's past has no impact on Anduin's actual experiences or state of mind.

I refuse to acknowledge Arathi because Blizzard has refused to put any narrative effort into it. I'm not going to fill in the blanks for Blizzard and pretend we were actually given a reason to be there like you have.

<span class="truncated">...</span> In a hypothetical event where after the Night Elves secede from the Alliance

I do not believe in any hypothetical event where the Night Elves secede from the Alliance.

Maybe you both missed that I said the Night Elves should stay? You're both responding to me as if I said the Night Elves should leave.


What I take issue with is this "Honestly? I would say the Night Elves should stay in the Alliance to show Anduin up, so that when the Humans need aid the NIght Elves will show up and be like " 'This is how you help an ally out.' "

You are implying that the Humans (which I assume you mean Stormwind) are not supplying aid. My reference to Stormwind, is that Anduin states IN the council meeting that they will recover what the NEs lost, that he needs time. Tyrande Refuses to give it. My POINT is that the NE are in my opinion being impatient and impertinent, especially because Tyrande withholds vital strategic plans from both Anduin and her closest advisor. Stormwind's people fought for 5 years before they got their homelands back, its pretty relevant in the discussion for Tyrande to go harrying off on her own.

That you refuse to acknowledge the strategic importance of arathi is silly. Because essentially you are trying to argue that the lack of a stated war goal makes is pointless, which Blizzard clearly does not agree with or it wouldnt be there in the first place.

Edit: Additionally, I guess what really irks me is you are using Anduin's age as a stand in for all humans in your quote, the continued (not just you) substituting of racial leaders as stand-ins for entire peoples is frustrating to say the least.
11/14/2018 08:33 PMPosted by Amadis
I do not believe in any hypothetical event where the Night Elves secede from the Alliance.

Maybe you both missed that I said the Night Elves should stay? You're both responding to me as if I said the Night Elves should leave.
I didn't miss that tidbit of one of your previous posts, but I did misunderstand your arguments in regard to my posts addressing the premise of the OP suggesting secession.

If the Night Elves remain allied with the Alliance, then the Horde indeed doesn't have the free reign focus its armies on them.

11/14/2018 08:33 PMPosted by Amadis
I said the narrative has not focused on Arathi at all during BfA. I've also reference comics, books, and all other media throughout my posting in general on all my time on these boards. And my point remains. The fighting over Arathi has never been brought up or referenced or made a narrative focus in the game, outside of the game, in any media Blizzard has chosen to deliver the narrative they have wanted to deliver.
It's existence in the game as a not insubstantial aspect of gameplay, on top of references in the upcoming patch in a conversation with Tyrande, citing it as a reason for the Alliance to lack the necessary manpower to deploy to Darkshore, does indicate that it is a part of the narrative even if its not focused on too much in favor of Kul Tiras and Zandalar (the actual new continents in the expansion).

And Arathi holds the key to barring access to the south of the Eastern Kingdoms and a major foothold to attack Silvermoon if needed. Not entirely worthless from a strategic point of view, not to mention the whole bit about Stromgarde, a kingdom of the Alliance, in dire need of some aid given the sorry state it's been in for years.
11/14/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Rothiron
I don't recall any old lore about Gnomeregan and Kul Tiras actually leaving the Alliance, at least not until the Daelin incident in the latter's case. And technically, Silvermoon and Gilneas both still left the Alliance with some retconned political manipulation sprinkled in. Though the sudden collapse of Lordaeron (logically) kicked everyone into gear.


hence "my didn't ask for help" part. That applied specifically to the gnomes. However yes Kul Tiras did leave the Alliance in Warcraft 2. Voila:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLxcTLZSDc3t=12m10s
11/14/2018 08:50 PMPosted by Zerde
hence "my didn't ask for help" part. That applied specifically to the gnomes. However yes Kul Tiras did leave the Alliance in Warcraft 2. Voila:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLxcTLZSDc3t=12m10s
But Warcraft 2 was practically retconned by Warcraft 3. I don't remember any word about it from there.
RE; Kul'Tiras, per Chronicle 3 pg 112 they are still part of the Alliance until the death of Daelin
11/14/2018 08:53 PMPosted by Rothiron
But Warcraft 2 was practically retconned by Warcraft 3. I don't remember any word about it from there.


My original post did mention about the retcon. Still it proves my point, if the night elves decided to go on their own, it would only be a matter of time before the Horde uses it to their advantage and attacks them without the support of the Alliance armies.
11/14/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Saiphas
What I take issue with is this "Honestly? I would say the Night Elves should stay in the Alliance to show Anduin up, so that when the Humans need aid the NIght Elves will show up and be like " 'This is how you help an ally out.' "

You are implying that the Humans (which I assume you mean Stormwind) are not supplying aid.

You misread what I meant then. My point is that (in a hypothetical) when Stormwind is burning and even when Darkshore and the rest of Kalimdor hasn't been taken back, the Night Elves should still arrive in force to aid the Stormwind Humans save and take back their homes. As someone else posted to me, actions are louder than words.

11/14/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Saiphas
My reference to Stormwind, is that Anduin states IN the council meeting that they will recover what the NEs lost, that he needs time.

Anduin also has the unfortunate backdrop of his previous conversation about aiding the Night Elves to contrast this against. When the Night Elves would have been held hostage on Teldrassil, Anduin brought up the point to Genn that Anduin would have put priority on aiding the Night Elves. Now in the face of all those Night Elves being dead - which Anduin even claims responsibility for "those who burned" for not being able to grasp Sylvanas' mind - Anduin is focusing on other priorities. Which once again he is not wrong to. But the contrast is glaring, and made even worse when Genn backs up his words to Anduin with action for the Night Elves, where Anduin cannot. Anduin is not in a fair position. But Stormwind's history of being burned down in the First War has nothing to do with that. And if anything, you are disregarding the Night Elves' feelings in the light of what just happened to them to call them impatient and impertinent so that you can hold Anduin's feelings as more important while painting a picture of his feelings of the burning of Stormwind years ago that he has never expressed having.

11/14/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Saiphas
That you refuse to acknowledge the strategic importance of arathi is silly. Because essentially you are trying to argue that the lack of a stated war goal makes is pointless, which Blizzard clearly does not agree with or it wouldnt be there in the first place.

Arathi has nothing to do with ensuring the Zandalar navy does not give the Horde devastating sea faring advantage over the Alliance.

To refuse to acknowledge that Arathi has had no narrative reasoning written for why we're there or why it helps the Alliance to be there is being silly.

There's not even a personal reason for Anduin in Arathi - the way his personal reason for the assault on Dazar'alor was to get the Zandalar to remain neutral - as in "Lost Honor" Anduin himself says:

"When this war began, I thought we were fighting for peace. But we're just... fighting...."

For no reason.
11/14/2018 09:25 PMPosted by Amadis
11/14/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Saiphas
What I take issue with is this "Honestly? I would say the Night Elves should stay in the Alliance to show Anduin up, so that when the Humans need aid the NIght Elves will show up and be like " 'This is how you help an ally out.' "

You are implying that the Humans (which I assume you mean Stormwind) are not supplying aid.

You misread what I meant then. My point is that (in a hypothetical) when Stormwind is burning and even when Darkshore and the rest of Kalimdor hasn't been taken back, the Night Elves should still arrive in force to aid the Stormwind Humans save and take back their homes. As someone else posted to me, actions are louder than words.

11/14/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Saiphas
My reference to Stormwind, is that Anduin states IN the council meeting that they will recover what the NEs lost, that he needs time.

Anduin also has the unfortunate backdrop of his previous conversation about aiding the Night Elves to contrast this against. When the Night Elves would have been held hostage on Teldrassil, Anduin brought up the point to Genn that Anduin would have put priority on aiding the Night Elves. Now in the face of all those Night Elves being dead - which Anduin even claims responsibility for "those who burned" for not being able to grasp Sylvanas' mind - Anduin is focusing on other priorities. Which once again he is not wrong to. But the contrast is glaring, and made even worse when Genn backs up his words to Anduin with action for the Night Elves, where Anduin cannot. Anduin is not in a fair position. But Stormwind's history of being burned down in the First War has nothing to do with that. And if anything, you are disregarding the Night Elves' feelings in the light of what just happened to them to call them impatient and impertinent so that you can hold Anduin's feelings as more important while painting a picture of his feelings of the burning of Stormwind years ago that he has never expressed having.

11/14/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Saiphas
That you refuse to acknowledge the strategic importance of arathi is silly. Because essentially you are trying to argue that the lack of a stated war goal makes is pointless, which Blizzard clearly does not agree with or it wouldnt be there in the first place.

Arathi has nothing to do with ensuring the Zandalar navy does not give the Horde devastating sea faring advantage over the Alliance.

To refuse to acknowledge that Arathi has had no narrative reasoning written for why we're there or why it helps the Alliance to be there is being silly.

There's not even a personal reason for Anduin in Arathi - the way his personal reason for the assault on Dazar'alor was to get the Zandalar to remain neutral - as in "Lost Honor" Anduin himself says:

"When this war began, I thought we were fighting for peace. But we're just... fighting...."

For no reason.


And then Genn's reply is "You are doing everything you can to stop her." Meaning that every effort including Arathi IS to fight Sylvanas. Why do I bring up Stormwind's burning? Because the importance was protect ALL the remaining alliance people's in the second war. It was not until the Horde was beaten and broken that Stormwind was reclaimed. THAT is the lesson.

My issue, as per my edit, is you implying the People of Stormwind do not know what the NEs are going through, You are, like many posters, using the racial leader as stand in for the entire group. That irks me.
I think it would be a horrible idea for them to leave the Alliance. It would put them in tnr crosshairs of the horde army with no back up. The horde could push into their lands, but if War of the Thornes taught us anything, the house would play for every step with blood and heavy losses.

As to the OP's statement. Yes we lost 1000 civilians but thousands more got out.

I will back Tyrande at any time but Anduin has a point in not sending immediate aid. They may be winning atm, but Sylvanas has him on his toes.

As for Saurfang, he needed his help. Im surprised he didn't seek out Thrall too. I also thought that in a moment of calm it would have been Tyrande that spoke to Saurfang. His brother is Broxigar (who I know people understandably hate, blame Richard Knaak) who was a friend to both Tyrande and Malfurion.

It might make relations between them tense but I don't see them leaving, the fact the Genn came along can help to smooth over the tensions that may arise. But In can understand why people feel like the NE are undervalued. They gave shelter to not only the Gilneans but the Draenei too, and that are holding (without much difficulty) all of Kailmdor.

I also think it sucks that they are not very close with the other members of the Alliance, and that's unfortunate. They helped the Draenei, but on another form post someone else's stated that their use of arcane tech keeps them from having a larger presence in Ashenvale and their worship of the light makes them closer with the humans. I agree with this statement. Not to mention Velen made that stupid statement about Elune.

The second war made quick and close allies of the humans, drawfs and gnomes; and with Theramore gone, so hoes their closest relationship with the human faction. This is why I'm glad the Gilneans came along. They finally have a close Alliance with in the faction. Mia and Genn and loved and respected by the Night Elves. Im glad that relationship was cultivated. You even see them being integrated into the Night Elf army at Feathermoon Stronghold.
None at all.

Why do any of the races stay when the Alliance is so very clearly Stormwind First? The Alliance should have disintegrated after MoP.

Compound that with in Legion the draenei getting no help followed by BfA where the night elves get no help. It's clearly evident at this point if something does not serve the interests of Stormwind it will not be done.
11/14/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Saiphas
And then Genn's reply is "You are doing everything you can to stop her."

And Genn still sides with the Night Elves and goes to Darkshore to help them after that. So are you saying Genn is getting your dander up, too, then?

11/14/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Saiphas
Meaning that every effort including Arathi IS to fight Sylvanas.

And my point remains, the narrative has never stated in any way how fighting in Arathi would help fight against Sylvanas. It is especially noticably absent when we are given clear reasons for why we are at Zandalar and Kul'Tiras and Darkshore. We are given nothing like that in regards to Arathi. We are just there.

11/14/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Saiphas
Why do I bring up Stormwind's burning? Because the importance was protect ALL the remaining alliance people's in the second war. It was not until the Horde was beaten and broken that Stormwind was reclaimed. THAT is the lesson.

My issue, as per my edit, is you implying the People of Stormwind do not know what the NEs are going through, You are, like many posters, using the racial leader as stand in for the entire group. That irks me.

So you're irked that people are treating Anduin as a stand in for the People of Stormwind, while at the same time you're treating the People of Stormwind - who have also not expressed any such feelings about the burning of Stormwind any anytime during BfA's time period - as a stand in for Anduin's reasoning for not aiding the Night Elves. Because it wasn't the people of Stormwind who told Tyrande no. It was Anduin.

Your being irked if anything is even more misplaced in your response to me, as I'll quote myself with emphasis, as you like to do:
11/14/2018 06:40 PMPosted by Amadis
I would say the Night Elves should stay in the Alliance to show Anduin up
I do not treat Anduin as a stand in for all the people of Stormwind. I want Anduin shown up for making the decision he made as Anduin.

That you treat me as if I did what irks you is on you. I'm not taking any responsibility for your misunderstanding.

But your point doesn't even hold water. We don't see any voluntary citizens of Stormwind over in Darkshore - No, the Champion of the Alliance does not count, as they are race agnostic - and in contrast, the people of Gilneas are there. So whatever the people of Stormwind are feeling - which we have not heard anything from them to base anything off of any way - there is no one from Stormwind that goes to aid the Night Elves on Darkshore and bucks the trend Anduin has set, regardless of their reasoning or lack there of.
11/14/2018 09:52 PMPosted by Lena
None at all.

Why do any of the races stay when the Alliance is so very clearly Stormwind First? The Alliance should have disintegrated after MoP.

Compound that with in Legion the draenei getting no help followed by BfA where the night elves get no help. It's clearly evident at this point if something does not serve the interests of Stormwind it will not be done.


Except Stormwind could have done nothing and be all the better for it. It doesnt need to send its children to be killed to defend night elves half across the world and yet it does so. For two reasons, one, it among the various the various nations of the Alliance have been committed to the Alliance due it owing its existance to the Alliance. Second, because it knows if it doesnt help other members of the Alliance it will fall one everyone else on the board has fallen to the Horde(check Sylvanas' little plan in "a Good War")
Amadis, the humans of stormwind are down to farmers left, they are fighting on all the other fronts. They don't have the people to go to Darkshore, which is why Anduin sends the champion in the first place. No Genn does not get my dander up because there is no right call in this. He goes to keep the Alliance from tearing itself apart and for the debt he feels he owes, and for that I am happy that he is getting character development.

Maybe I misread your quote, but it essentially comes off as you want to humiliate Anduin for his choice, which you stated was not wrong.

RE: Stormwind, have you like, not read any of the lore behind the second war? Like any of Chronicle 2? They make it a point that the entire narrative arc of stormwind was a people who thought they could go it alone were then humbled, realizing they had to rely on others, and then dedicated their last forces defending and fighting on behalf of others. That it is not brought up in BfA is bad on the writers, however it is a central part of the story of the People of Stormwind.
11/14/2018 10:07 PMPosted by Saiphas
Amadis, the humans of stormwind are down to farmers left, they are fighting on all the other fronts. They don't have the people to go to Darkshore, which is why Anduin sends the champion in the first place. No Genn does not get my dander up because there is no right call in this.

And the Gilneans magically aren't down to their civilians? Genn is just leaning back going "We'll have to call up the farmers next. Stormwind ones any way. We still have plenty of Gilnean soldiers. They're just chilling out here in Stormwind actually. Haven't been deployed at all. Stormwind farmers first. Then the Gilneans."

Where do you think the Gilnean forces at Darkshore are coming from if Genn is saying they need to call up farmers?

11/14/2018 10:07 PMPosted by Saiphas
He goes to keep the Alliance from tearing itself apart and for the debt he feels he owes, and for that I am happy that he is getting character development.

I agree with you here. I don't think the Night Elves would leave the Alliance. But I certainly believe Genn is playing a huge role in filling the Night Elves' hearts with the concept of unity.

11/14/2018 10:07 PMPosted by Saiphas
Maybe I misread your quote, but it essentially comes off as you want to humiliate Anduin for his choice, which you stated was not wrong.

I also said Anduin is not in a fair position. I do want him to see that the other choice he could have made, which also would not have been wrong - as you also said, there is no right call here - and I want him to see the choice he didn't making turning out well so he can reflect on that and learn from it, because if there's anything good that will come out of this war, it will be Anduin being a better leader for having learned from it.

11/14/2018 10:07 PMPosted by Saiphas
That it is not brought up in BfA is bad on the writers

That is the core of my point. Everything else you said is not only irrelevant to my point, it is bad on the writers because it makes everything else you said irrelevant to the current narrative.
Amadis, just because the writers have not explicitly referenced a thing does not mean that thing is nonexistant nor does it make it irrelevant. That is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. As for Gilneas' people, they didn't resettle in the EK, they had previously had been in the NE lands. I assume they were refugee's just like the NE civilians.

I came at you strong, and for that I apologize. I fundamentally believe that going by only what is directly referenced is a bad choice, however, we will not see eye to eye on this matter.
11/14/2018 10:26 PMPosted by Saiphas
As for Gilneas' people, they didn't resettle in the EK, they had previously had been in the NE lands. I assume they were refugee's just like the NE civilians.

The Gilneans, as it seemed in Elegy any way, were living mostly on Teldrassil after losing Gilneas, given a home there by the Night Elves, and also per Elegy the Gilneans were given priority and were completely evacuated from Teldrassil to Stormwind. If they're showing up in Darkshore, it is most likely a return, same as the Night Elves who refuse to "languish in Stormwind" as Tyrande says.

11/14/2018 10:26 PMPosted by Saiphas
I fundamentally believe that going by only what is directly referenced is a bad choice, however, we will not see eye to eye on this matter.

I agree with you on this. I take back calling you silly, as, to be fair, I only said since you called me silly first, which is obviously childish a reason for me to do it, too. I know this is how you view things. It is not how I view things. And I honestly don't hold it against you. You're way of reading the lore is a perfectly good one. My way is simply not your way, though, so, obviously yes, we will not see eye to eye on this matter.

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