Why is everyone excited for incremental "improvements"?

General Discussion
10/19/2018 08:37 PMPosted by Arlec
Reality: It's not possible to make the kind of changes you want to see in a short period of time.


This. Blizzard can either make small changes towards the better, keep things the same, or cold turkey just remove features from the game (which is usually a big no-no in game design since something is almost always better than nothing and doesn't reflect well on your development team).

The big test is seeing what they plan for the next expansion. If they push ahead with the same stuff any hope I have will be crushed.
10/19/2018 08:46 PMPosted by Charax
That green text looks like a football field. :(

haha sorry, got a bit verbose! This is a topic that I am very passionate and excited by, as you can no doubt tell!
A green poster supporting blizzard? Color me surprised, they’d support anything blizzard does without fail
10/19/2018 08:45 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Well, I for one am excited because this is FAR from an "incremental" improvement. This is a massive change to a system that will go on to set a precedent for further similar changes in the future, or at worst shine light on why this might not be the best solution for the long term.

I find it akin to the 7.3.5 legendary vendor and currency, and I think most would agree that the systems in place then were much needed and about a year too late.

Here, they are recognizing the issue 2 months in, and adding currency not only to the most repeatable and competitive content in the game atm, but also to other content and gear sources to give players new reasons to do content that might be invalidated. Running uldir again every week after the new raid comes out alone is a great thing for this game.

The problem is though, none of those other " GLARING issues" are actually issues if you ask me.

Ability pruning didn't happen to me. Outside of the artifact, I actually GAINED an ability, and it was an incredibly important one. I also lived through Wod into Legion where they actually cut about half the spells and interactions from Blood DKs and left us with an incredibly shallow and simplistic design so legion to BFA was nothing.

I don't pvp so I know nothing of the imbalance, but I do PVE and know its greatly exaggerated there, and I expect it to remain so no matter what changes they make.

I certainly don't agree that the story is lackluster either. I actually really like the story and the characters involved. It's opened up some very cool ideas, including one I've really enjoyed entertaining - that N'zoth is pulling Magni's strings the entire time and while collecting azerite we are actually collecting power for him, like how Saronite was power for Yogg.

And its not a "fact"that anything was "eviscerated" by any GCD changes. 2-4 extra abilities on the GCD when the rest of your spells already were shouldn't change anything for you. You get used to it after a few play sessions, and that's that. Ironically, I've actually really felt the impact of the change from what Ion detailed. It feels considerably more important to decide if I should use a dps global or try to fit in a Death Grip to interrupt, and when I make a poor choice there, I feel it.

As an aside, I think most people use the term "GCD changes" to mean something else.
What most seem to be actually describing is the change to secondary stats. In 8.0, they halved the amount of haste percentage you get from per stat, so you effectively play 2x as slow. Many people may not inherently realize that haste lowers the GCD, but the game is designed around having 0 haste, so the more you get the less this problem becomes. That's probably why most people aren't concerned now. You will see many people with 30+ percent haste ALREADY. Barely 2 months into the game's real content.
What's it going to look like a year in?

Anyway, just because I haven't experienced these things doesn't mean they didn't happen, but I just wanted to help you and others realize that just because you are going out of your way to dislike things, doesn't mean others can't celebrate a monumental design win.

If you are serious about your character at all, you will come to realize that the limitation of azerite gear has been a big detriment on the relevant communities.
Them allowing a vendor as a solution with the systems in place they already have demonstrates extremely swift and powerful change for something that was seeming like a colossal failure a few weeks ago.

I'm sure people will still find reasons to hate it, but after this patch the system will finally be doing what its supposed to. Offer players significant, fun ways to customize their class, and encourage mixing and matching the options to create dynamic playstyles that can be expanded on by collecting gear from various content.
As of today on live, this is effectively impossible, so obviously I'm happy that is changing.


thank you for that tidbit of propaganda. I don't know what I would have done without it.
10/19/2018 08:45 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Well, I for one am excited because this is FAR from an "incremental" improvement. This is a massive change to a system that will go on to set a precedent for further similar changes in the future, or at worst shine light on why this might not be the best solution for the long term.

I find it akin to the 7.3.5 legendary vendor and currency, and I think most would agree that the systems in place then were much needed and about a year too late.

Here, they are recognizing the issue 2 months in, and adding currency not only to the most repeatable and competitive content in the game atm, but also to other content and gear sources to give players new reasons to do content that might be invalidated. Running uldir again every week after the new raid comes out alone is a great thing for this game.

The problem is though, none of those other " GLARING issues" are actually issues if you ask me.

Ability pruning didn't happen to me. Outside of the artifact, I actually GAINED an ability, and it was an incredibly important one. I also lived through Wod into Legion where they actually cut about half the spells and interactions from Blood DKs and left us with an incredibly shallow and simplistic design so legion to BFA was nothing.

I don't pvp so I know nothing of the imbalance, but I do PVE and know its greatly exaggerated there, and I expect it to remain so no matter what changes they make.

I certainly don't agree that the story is lackluster either. I actually really like the story and the characters involved. It's opened up some very cool ideas, including one I've really enjoyed entertaining - that N'zoth is pulling Magni's strings the entire time and while collecting azerite we are actually collecting power for him, like how Saronite was power for Yogg.

And its not a "fact"that anything was "eviscerated" by any GCD changes. 2-4 extra abilities on the GCD when the rest of your spells already were shouldn't change anything for you. You get used to it after a few play sessions, and that's that. Ironically, I've actually really felt the impact of the change from what Ion detailed. It feels considerably more important to decide if I should use a dps global or try to fit in a Death Grip to interrupt, and when I make a poor choice there, I feel it.

As an aside, I think most people use the term "GCD changes" to mean something else.
What most seem to be actually describing is the change to secondary stats. In 8.0, they halved the amount of haste percentage you get from per stat, so you effectively play 2x as slow. Many people may not inherently realize that haste lowers the GCD, but the game is designed around having 0 haste, so the more you get the less this problem becomes. That's probably why most people aren't concerned now. You will see many people with 30+ percent haste ALREADY. Barely 2 months into the game's real content.
What's it going to look like a year in?

Anyway, just because I haven't experienced these things doesn't mean they didn't happen, but I just wanted to help you and others realize that just because you are going out of your way to dislike things, doesn't mean others can't celebrate a monumental design win.

If you are serious about your character at all, you will come to realize that the limitation of azerite gear has been a big detriment on the relevant communities.
Them allowing a vendor as a solution with the systems in place they already have demonstrates extremely swift and powerful change for something that was seeming like a colossal failure a few weeks ago.

I'm sure people will still find reasons to hate it, but after this patch the system will finally be doing what its supposed to. Offer players significant, fun ways to customize their class, and encourage mixing and matching the options to create dynamic playstyles that can be expanded on by collecting gear from various content.
As of today on live, this is effectively impossible, so obviously I'm happy that is changing.


With all due respect, it doesn't convince me that things are "improving." I only see it as blizzard trying to smokescreen the customers to alleviate the outrage before it becomes a controversial period in the WoW lifecycle. It had happened before with Warlords of Draenor.

This whole "currency" for azerite gear is ONLY for Mythic+ dungeoners, which yes, it is a good thing to have. But guess what? Not everyone plays mythic+, especially not me. I just don't find it fun having to play the same dungeons over and over with slightly different mechanics just to pull a slot machine for gear, especially for the damn titanforge armor.

Even if it is placed for other gear, it doesn't change the fact that you have to play the same dungeons and raids over and over just to get titanforge. The game literally FORCES you, if you want better gear, to play the SAME dungeon or raid, OVER and OVER again. Is that fun?

As for pruning, talk to people who have played shadow priests, such as myself, or elemental shamans. Hell, talk to people who have played marksman hunters or protection warriors and tell me that pruning isn't a problem for you. I shall wait.

And for the story... you can't tell me that this is good writing, right? A retread of Seige of ogrimmar with Saurfang? Anduin being a total idiot and throwing massive amounts of troops to die despite him knowing that sylvanas is notorious for using blight? Sylvanas, being the epitome of cringy edginess and half baked saturday morning cartoon villains? How about the fact that Tyrande became an ultra powerful "night warrior" but couldn't kill a dark ranger because of plot armor? The story itself was thrown out the window after cataclysm, so I don't know why people are calling this a good story.

Again for GCD, play some of the other classes and you could see how bad things have gotten, especially for shadow priests.

Blizzard is notorious for cutting corners and I am not convinced until they have shown that they are COMMITTED to making changes that does not involve RNG, more pruning, and more lackluster stories.
We've had currency gear vendors before. Unless I'm missing something, I really fail to see how it's a precedent.


Oh no, this is a whole separate ball game this time. In those days there were no infinite reward systems like the ones that exist today.
This is essentially setting a precedent saying that there are room for deterministic rewards and random infinite rewards. Look at it as a test. If it works well for PVE M+ dungeons, and the scrapping rewards get people engaged in other content as well, it very well may be the new gold standard - still random, but with more agency towards the randomness you want to pursue.

Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean that it didn't happen. That feels like a pretty ignorant stance to take when there are 12 classes and 36 specializations, quite a number of which felt massive downgrades by losing everything the artifacts gave to them.

Oh ya, I absolutely acknowledge that, and said the same thing in the post I made. I've played all 6 tanks heavily since the beta, and have started to dabble in some healing roles as well, and I haven't seen any significant pruning anywhere. Honestly, it feels like most specs have even more to press than they did in Legion, but I'm not being objective there so no reason to press the matter.
However, its important to realize that the artifact was always going. This was known before we even had it. We didn't know just how much we were going to lose, but they couldn't just bake in 30~ passives into the class. That's not healthy for the long term.
They want to be able to put fun interesting power gains in the game that we use for a year or two, then be able to start over.
Maybe you don't like that, and I totally understand why, but that's the goal and it was executed to plan here. Its not a "glaring issue." Just a difference of opinion.

10/19/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Haunker
I don't have much to say about the GCD changes except that I feel as if both the old system and the new system work in their own ways - But making such a fundamental change was very big and I do understand why it's got a lot of backlash. If the game had GCDs on every offensive cooldown from the getgo, it would also be fine.


Its jaring for sure, but by now everyone should be used to it. Its also important to admit its ONLY jaring because you are comparing it to the past. That's a logical thing to do, but if you just started playing a certain class you would never experience it.

The entire combat system is built around the global cooldown, so having half a dozen spells not play by those rules was getting out of control anyway.

Adding half of them back to that rule set shouldn't dramatically upset anyone, but I am still certain most people are referring to the feel of the lack of secondaries.
I think a lot of people believe that they actually elongated the global cooldown, but in reality they just are misunderstanding what actually happened, and how the problem is something that fixes it self over time.

Anyway, great thoughts. I'm excited to see such passion about this topic. Things were dark there for a bit, but this announcement really gives me a lot of hope for the future, and the fact that its all being announced before Blizzcon makes me even more anxious to see what they have in store for us!
10/19/2018 09:02 PMPosted by Mony
10/19/2018 08:45 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Well, I for one am excited because this is FAR from an "incremental" improvement. This is a massive change to a system that will go on to set a precedent for further similar changes in the future, or at worst shine light on why this might not be the best solution for the long term.

I find it akin to the 7.3.5 legendary vendor and currency, and I think most would agree that the systems in place then were much needed and about a year too late.

Here, they are recognizing the issue 2 months in, and adding currency not only to the most repeatable and competitive content in the game atm, but also to other content and gear sources to give players new reasons to do content that might be invalidated. Running uldir again every week after the new raid comes out alone is a great thing for this game.

The problem is though, none of those other " GLARING issues" are actually issues if you ask me.

Ability pruning didn't happen to me. Outside of the artifact, I actually GAINED an ability, and it was an incredibly important one. I also lived through Wod into Legion where they actually cut about half the spells and interactions from Blood DKs and left us with an incredibly shallow and simplistic design so legion to BFA was nothing.

I don't pvp so I know nothing of the imbalance, but I do PVE and know its greatly exaggerated there, and I expect it to remain so no matter what changes they make.

I certainly don't agree that the story is lackluster either. I actually really like the story and the characters involved. It's opened up some very cool ideas, including one I've really enjoyed entertaining - that N'zoth is pulling Magni's strings the entire time and while collecting azerite we are actually collecting power for him, like how Saronite was power for Yogg.

And its not a "fact"that anything was "eviscerated" by any GCD changes. 2-4 extra abilities on the GCD when the rest of your spells already were shouldn't change anything for you. You get used to it after a few play sessions, and that's that. Ironically, I've actually really felt the impact of the change from what Ion detailed. It feels considerably more important to decide if I should use a dps global or try to fit in a Death Grip to interrupt, and when I make a poor choice there, I feel it.

As an aside, I think most people use the term "GCD changes" to mean something else.
What most seem to be actually describing is the change to secondary stats. In 8.0, they halved the amount of haste percentage you get from per stat, so you effectively play 2x as slow. Many people may not inherently realize that haste lowers the GCD, but the game is designed around having 0 haste, so the more you get the less this problem becomes. That's probably why most people aren't concerned now. You will see many people with 30+ percent haste ALREADY. Barely 2 months into the game's real content.
What's it going to look like a year in?

Anyway, just because I haven't experienced these things doesn't mean they didn't happen, but I just wanted to help you and others realize that just because you are going out of your way to dislike things, doesn't mean others can't celebrate a monumental design win.

If you are serious about your character at all, you will come to realize that the limitation of azerite gear has been a big detriment on the relevant communities.
Them allowing a vendor as a solution with the systems in place they already have demonstrates extremely swift and powerful change for something that was seeming like a colossal failure a few weeks ago.

I'm sure people will still find reasons to hate it, but after this patch the system will finally be doing what its supposed to. Offer players significant, fun ways to customize their class, and encourage mixing and matching the options to create dynamic playstyles that can be expanded on by collecting gear from various content.
As of today on live, this is effectively impossible, so obviously I'm happy that is changing.


thank you for that tidbit of propaganda. I don't know what I would have done without it.


It's Metrohaha.

You're not meant to take anything he says seriously, you're just meant to skim it over and laugh at it.
10/19/2018 09:05 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Oh no, this is a whole separate ball game this time. In those days there were no infinite reward systems like the ones that exist today.
This is essentially setting a precedent saying that there are room for deterministic rewards and random infinite rewards. Look at it as a test. If it works well for PVE M+ dungeons, and the scrapping rewards get people engaged in other content as well, it very well may be the new gold standard - still random, but with more agency towards the randomness you want to pursue.

I guess in that way it makes sense, but with how it was worded, it seems very much like the intentional path towards purchasing the gear is through m+. 3 times more currency drop from a +10 item than a +7? I don't even want to imagine how low the yield on something like a 340 or 355 azerite piece would be in that situation. And regardless, I still view it in the same way I view Valor points, as there's still technically a weekly cap on how many azerite pieces you can farm up in the first place. It's basically just more universal, which is a good change, but still doesn't feel as massive as you're implying due to how small it seems like the overall yield for anything that isnt m+ will be. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the drop tuning will look like on the PTR.

10/19/2018 09:05 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Oh ya, I absolutely acknowledge that, and said the same thing in the post I made. I've played all 6 tanks heavily since the beta, and have started to dabble in some healing roles as well, and I haven't seen any significant pruning anywhere. Honestly, it feels like most specs have even more to press than they did in Legion, but I'm not being objective there so no reason to press the matter.
However, its important to realize that the artifact was always going. This was known before we even had it. We didn't know just how much we were going to lose, but they couldn't just bake in 30~ passives into the class. That's not healthy for the long term.
They want to be able to put fun interesting power gains in the game that we use for a year or two, then be able to start over.

I do understand that. It just seems like giving us so many passives and buffs that either smoothed out gameplay or completely changed how we played our class was short sighted, especially since we knew we were going to be losing it. Big buffs like concordance and the flat +10% were great, and it could have been just things like that, but they went the route of making some classes heavily rely on artifact passives to play smoothly, and it was very jarring to lose it. I really do hate to quote the guy, but it did feel as though I leveled down, this expansion, rather than up. I lost a passive AoE ability, several buffs that interacted with my dots, dimensional rifts, the ember generation that came with it, Thal'kiel, etc; point is, for what they were, they gave far too much power to just be taken away like it was nothing.

10/19/2018 09:05 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Its jaring for sure, but by now everyone should be used to it. Its also important to admit its ONLY jaring because you are comparing it to the past. That's a logical thing to do, but if you just started playing a certain class you would never experience it.

This is certainly the case. I decided to level a void elf warrior just to give it a try and see if it were as bad as people said, but I'm finding that honestly it's not. Just gotta stack moar haste.
10/19/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Layetin
Blizzard is notorious for cutting corners and I am not convinced until they have shown that they are COMMITTED to making changes that does not involve RNG, more pruning, and more lackluster stories.


Keep discussing what you want to see changed for sure, but you will probably be disappointed. What you are detailing here is not "cutting corners."
You are trying to compare these situations to WoD, but they are not even remotely similar.
In WoD, half the announced features never made it to the game. They weren't late. They didn't come into the game incomplete or unpolished. They never happened. We got only a single raid tier, no new dungeons, and only 1 new zone.

It was the least that was ever delivered by a mile, and there was zero innovation there.

This is the complete opposite. Things are in the state they are because they are trying to innovate and they didn't give themselves enough time to see all that innovation out, and they didn't have the data they needed to anticipate the exact problems they would have because very few people play the beta, but everyone seems to want to talk about it.

I don't know anything about DPS specs, so I'm sure some classes did have significant things removed, but Protection Warriors did not. If anything they gained things, and certainly have the most complete rotation and overall kit of any tank in the game.
What you might be confusing is the fact that their notoriously strong mitigation in Ignore Pain was added to the GCD, and that caused quite a bit of growing pains for their place among the tanks right now.

They even got new utility, in an Attack Power raid buff and Commanding Shout. These are big deals, and they are new with 8.0.

But yes, I do like the story. This is a topic that is purely opinion, so no point in carrying this one on, really. You bringing up early expansions which basically didn't even create their own lore doesn't sway me much.

It's not game of thrones, but I do feel heavily connected to the characters and expect their decisions to amount to something. If in the end, they don't, then I'll agree with you for sure, but story is really about last on my list of things I am worried about with this expansion right now.

#1 is azerite gear.
10/19/2018 08:40 PMPosted by Layetin
10/19/2018 08:35 PMPosted by Lilithyra
I think they're celebrating the fact that Blizzard is actually listening more than the band aid, but to be frank, it's gonna take a lot more. The GCD change getting reverted would be the best place to start.


I think Blizzard is just blowing smoke up the customer's asses just to calm the outrage just enough so it doesn't become a controversy. Concede just enough to get their money while cutting as many corners as possible. It has happened before.


So, basically, Blizzard can do 100% what players want and people like you will rush like in this this attitude. Christ, you guys are really just rotten to the core.
Does this change only benefit people that do M+? I agree with Metro. They are in this state because they did try out new stuff. At least they tried. I just wish they would have kept some of the stuff that did work. Im willing to bet that they will make the new stuff better as time goes on. At least i hope so because at max level if you dont do M+ or raids the game is beyond bad.
10/19/2018 09:23 PMPosted by Johnny
Holy quoting green guy wall of green!

I like having conversations and not just quoting big posts with "lol" myself, but I do see how it can be an eyesore lol
10/19/2018 09:24 PMPosted by Xarron
Does this change only benefit people that do M+?

You can get this new currency from scrapping or disenchanting any epic quality azerite gear. From the wording in the post it seems like mythic + will have the highest yield of this currency, but the change hasn't hit the PTR yet so we'll see.
10/19/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Azivalla
10/19/2018 08:40 PMPosted by Layetin
...

I think Blizzard is just blowing smoke up the customer's asses just to calm the outrage just enough so it doesn't become a controversy. Concede just enough to get their money while cutting as many corners as possible. It has happened before.


So, basically, Blizzard can do 100% what players want and people like you will rush like in this this attitude. Christ, you guys are really just rotten to the core.


If my kid gave me a test that's a D- instead of an F, I don't congratulate him.
Because people are so desperate to have changes made and to be listened to that they'll happily gobble up what few crumbs their masters allow them.
10/19/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Azivalla
So, basically, Blizzard can do 100% what players want and people like you will rush like in this this attitude. Christ, you guys are really just rotten to the core


first of all, they never do 100% of what players "want". not all players want the same thing. this change is more self serving for them, than "all" players. granted it's a start, but it really only helps min/maxers.
10/19/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Keep discussing what you want to see changed for sure, but you will probably be disappointed. What you are detailing here is not "cutting corners."

Yeah, and I'm not going to play their game. If they think incremental changes should be celebrated, then it is not too hard to believe that WoW has low subscriber numbers.

10/19/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Metrohaha
In WoD, half the announced features never made it to the game. They weren't late. They didn't come into the game incomplete or unpolished. They never happened. We got only a single raid tier, no new dungeons, and only 1 new zone.

That is not too far from BFA, is it? Azerite gear is promised to ENHANCE the character as well as having a GOOD alliance vs horde story. We didn't get that. Instead, we got a retread of what we have during MoP plus even more pruning after we were PROMISED that we won't have any of our abilities pruned.

10/19/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Metrohaha
This is the complete opposite. Things are in the state they are because they are trying to innovate and they didn't give themselves enough time to see all that innovation out, and they didn't have the data they needed to anticipate the exact problems they would have because very few people play the beta, but everyone seems to want to talk about it.


That is a complete lie. MANY people complained about the Azerite system BEFORE its release, and NOTHING was changed. The idea that you have to get a SPECIFIC RNG gear just to be effective in dungeons, raids or PVP is completely lackluster.

10/19/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Metrohaha
I don't know anything about DPS specs, so I'm sure some classes did have significant things removed, but Protection Warriors did not. If anything they gained things, and certainly have the most complete rotation and overall kit of any tank in the game.
What you might be confusing is the fact that their notoriously strong mitigation in Ignore Pain was added to the GCD, and that caused quite a bit of growing pains for their place among the tanks right now.


What abilities did they gain? Where are you getting this information? You then turn around to say since "ignore pain" got mitigated, that the tanks lost their effectiveness? They are quite possibly the WORST tanks in this expansion.

10/19/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Metrohaha
They even got new utility, in an Attack Power raid buff and Commanding Shout. These are big deals, and they are new with 8.0.


OH !@#$! WE GOT COMMANDING SHOUT BACK! Literally the things that returned are utilities. Nothing else.

10/19/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Metrohaha
But yes, I do like the story. This is a topic that is purely opinion, so no point in carrying this one on, really. You bringing up early expansions which basically didn't even create their own lore doesn't sway me much.

It's not game of thrones, but I do feel heavily connected to the characters and expect their decisions to amount to something. If in the end, they don't, then I'll agree with you for sure, but story is really about last on my list of things I am worried about with this expansion right now.


Can you give me one specific example of a "good" part of the story? What we have got was a retread of MoP with Escalation and Seige of Ogrimmar.

Azerite gear is a part of MANY other issues with this game. Blizzard could deny this all they want to, but don't expect teeming servers when you piss off the entire customer base.
10/19/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Graewyn
Because people are so desperate to have changes made and to be listened to that they'll happily gobble up what few crumbs their masters allow them.


I wonder if they congratulate kids who get D-'s on their tests instead of F's.
10/19/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Layetin
Can you give me one specific example of a "good" part of the story? What we have got was a retread of MoP with Escalation and Seige of Ogrimmar.

Well, to be technical, the horde are defending against an alliance assault, whereas in the siege of orgrimmar, both factions rallied together against the big bad wolf. but that's basically it.

So far, horde are still being sheeple to sylvanas. Bet cash money an old god is gonna corrupt a faction leader though, doesn't necessarily even need to be sylvanas. There's just too many references to nzoth already this expansion for that not to happen.

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