How to fix paladin dps

Classic Discussion
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11/10/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Busshock
11/10/2018 06:56 PMPosted by Coniferous
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No one is asking for perfect. They are asking for the game as it was.

If you want to see what years of listening to every complaint and making everyone the same looks like there is a game for that.


there was a massive amount of public outcry DURING vanilla alone for better class balance opportunities (not just limited to hybrids).. My name itself is a reference to the shaman community hating their cm for being worthless at addressing their b balance concerns to the point that they actually wanted him to get hit by a bus, and publicly celebrated him quitting after finally snapping from the outcry.

Much as I did back then, I'll strongly advocate for blizzard to pull their collective heads out of their collective bottoms on this issue...

The game as it was, was anything but static. The purity police need to realize and accept that...especially when nearly all of you are hilariously hypocritical about your no change stance, while simultaneously advocating for perpetual servers with no resets, when real vanilla was time gated at ~2 years before the TBC patch ended it.

Three simply no reason to double down on the major design flaws of vanilla and repeat them... It's still vanilla if hybrids are capable of going to raids, the only difference is that people might *gasp* actually consider playing those classes /specs rather than rolling yet another warrior /mage /rogue


"Massive"? Not really.

And "bus shock" is from TBC and had more to do with Blizz jerking shaman around, not our dps.

And you do realize that hybrids did a lot of other things that Blizz had to ruin in the name of dps, right?
"How to fix my self esteem for Classic."

There I fixed the title for you.
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aura is not enough to justify boomk slot, other things could be provided by restor,

just by the fact ,if it was so good then there should be a lot of druids in raid,
but after bwl guilds bring only 1 resto mostly, for mark and thorns

so its likely you overestimate value of other utilities,

i dont say inner or brez useless, but its seems that its definitly not enough to justify a boomk slot,
the point is that giving all that utility if 50 DPS loss is not nearly enough. If I had a choice between 950 DPS balance Druid or a 1000 DPS Rogue I would take the balance Druid 10 times Outta 10

at first you asking for how it looks "hypothetical",
and yes this is how it looks hypothetical, if we speak about hypothetical boomk without utilities,
i dont see problem if they have 1150 dps (total with bonus provided) but only with group of four 1000dps mages(btw mages decurse counts in dps ?,lol)

do you understand that it’s doing 300-350 and that’s more than twice less than even 800 ?
dont you think it should be brought to more valid point?
11/11/2018 05:20 AMPosted by Arrtilarr
... the point is that giving all that utility if 50 DPS loss is not nearly enough. If I had a choice between 950 DPS balance Druid or a 1000 DPS Rogue I would take the balance Druid 10 times Outta 10

at first you asking for how it looks "hypothetical",
and yes this is how it looks hypothetical, if we speak about hypothetical boomk without utilities,
i dont see problem if they have 1150 dps (total with bonus provided) but only with group of four 1000dps mages(btw mages decurse counts in dps ?,lol)

do you understand that it’s doing 300-350 and that’s more than twice less than even 800 ?
dont you think it should be brought to more valid point?

i have already said that it should in theory be buffed. the problem is that no one can agree on a set amount and you have people like you, ziryus, and akaidian who would basically make it so entire classes never raid again.
go play retail there i fixed it
11/11/2018 06:41 AMPosted by Orgrm
go play retail there i fixed it

hey you're 1 out of 10 levels in Battle For Azeroth content and have the Heart of Azeroth around your neck on your armory page

you aren't a filthy retailer, are you????
11/11/2018 04:02 AMPosted by Matcauthon
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ragnaros could be done with 40 priests, but im sure its not a very popular raid camp

such deep dps gap cant be ignored by just saying "even in disadvantage it is still possible"
there is alot of problems after it
not only extreamly low dps, and longer fights -> longer runs, you also need more healers and even bringing more healers you still risking more (with losing tanks or valueble raid members)
good dps make runs faster and fights easier, but on progression its also makes em possible,
even on bosses with no hard enrage, there a lot of places where dps matters, oh cmon it matters on near every boss starting from the 1st MC boss and to naxx,

its like "guys we wiped 15 times on 10%boss with a lot af !@#$ty specs in raid, lets try again, its still possible"

gear sharing with warrior is another story,
giving gear (or just allowing them to roll or bid on it) to specs like ret, feral, is a good way to destroy your guild

yes there should be tuning, becouse of situation with raids, a very careful made raid tuning changes, it could be done without changing the gameplay, its better to let it happens than get it how its on pservers

so in your hypothetical world. lets say a rogue and mage both do 1000 dps in bis gear.
how much dps should hybrids do?


X

wherein X + Y = 1000dps and Y = ability to buff other

So hypothetically if Y = 100dps then X would have to equal 900dps

now bringing 1 ret and 1 rogue means ret does 900dps and rogues does 1100dps because of ret's buff other. for a total of 2000dps.

bringing 2 rets also equals 2000dps because they buff each other up to 1000dps each and bringing 2 rogues also = 2000dps.

but for this to work only rets (not holy) would get this buff other and it could only be used on other players not self.

any less and raids still stack rogues to ignore rets.
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so in your hypothetical world. lets say a rogue and mage both do 1000 dps in bis gear.
how much dps should hybrids do?


X

wherein X + Y = 1000dps and Y = ability to buff other

So hypothetically if Y = 100dps then X would have to equal 900dps

now bringing 1 ret and 1 rogue means ret does 900dps and rogues does 1100dps because of ret's buff other. for a total of 2000dps.

bringing 2 rets also equals 2000dps because they buff each other up to 1000dps each and bringing 2 rogues also = 2000dps.

but for this to work only rets (not holy) would get this buff other and it could only be used on other players not self.

any less and raids still stack rogues to ignore rets.

and you forget about the value of utility that has zero dps.
things like blessing of protection, lay on hands, battle rez, and innervate.
what value do you put on those very useful abilities?
Paladin DPS needs fixed?
Its one of the strongest classes in the game from every level from 1 to 120 from what Ive seen with mine.
No.

I've done !@#$ tons of theorycrafting. Ret really isn't that far behind the curve as is. Holy Wrath and Conse are horribly mana inefficient on single target, and we really don't have the gear to support Exorcism spam until Naxx anyways. By Naxx we have the spellpower and the mp5 to support Exorcism in our rotation, with consumes.

Also consider that Vanilla is a RPG and Exorcism and Holy Wrath working on only evil creatures is part of being a Paladin.

Community perception and bad players are ret's problem. If you go in with full consumables, make it very clear you want hybrid loot and aren't competing with warriors/rogues, and really know your utility, you can easily pull weight and contribute. Ret doesn't need buffs. Logs suggest that ret outright beats hunter (worst dps class in the game for raiding, only brought for tranq shot), druid, shaman, and priest at dps. Ret is dead middle of the pack out of all classes in DPS. 10% behind mages, and warlocks, about 25% behind rogues, and 40% behind warriors. Entrenched private server metagaming and the fact that holy is so amazing is what hurts ret, not ret's actual DPS.

Ret doesnt really share any loot with Alliance raid specs, and can be brought to soak hybrid plate/mail and 2h weapons. If you're lucky, dedicated, and your raid lead cares about optimization over your warriors' PvP game, you should be in first priority for Sulfuras as well, which enables ret and enh sham to a degree that it just can't for warrior, due to a solid spell damage coefficient on the proc. You're gonna have plenty of spellpower from all of that hybrid gear nobody else needs.

Ret as a spec is fine, in fact I'd consider it very good at what it wants to do (middle of the pack damage, top tier utility, top tier buffs). The problem is that Holy is the best healer in the game and ret is middle of the pack, both of them offer the same utility. Getting to where your DPS should be also isn't exactly easy, ret is one of the most consume heavy dps specs.

There's a lot of ways to do poor dps by being unprepared and undedicated, and if a ret doesn't show up with full consumes, well they just don't do competitive damage.
11/11/2018 05:20 AMPosted by Arrtilarr
do you understand that it’s doing 300-350 and that’s more than twice less than even 800 ?


It doesn't? 350-500, maybe if you don't use consumables. Maybe if you're holy geared and need to dps a boss as shockadin. The dedicated ret players are doing about 850-900 in naxx and hold steady in the middle of the pack in all raids.
11/11/2018 07:36 AMPosted by Matcauthon

and you forget about the value of utility that has zero dps.
things like blessing of protection, lay on hands, battle rez, and innervate.
what value do you put on those very useful abilities?


Just take them all away and give them higher dps.
They want to be as good as pure dps then turn them into pure dps.
11/11/2018 07:36 AMPosted by Matcauthon
...

X

wherein X + Y = 1000dps and Y = ability to buff other

So hypothetically if Y = 100dps then X would have to equal 900dps

now bringing 1 ret and 1 rogue means ret does 900dps and rogues does 1100dps because of ret's buff other. for a total of 2000dps.

bringing 2 rets also equals 2000dps because they buff each other up to 1000dps each and bringing 2 rogues also = 2000dps.

but for this to work only rets (not holy) would get this buff other and it could only be used on other players not self.

any less and raids still stack rogues to ignore rets.

and you forget about the value of utility that has zero dps.
things like blessing of protection, lay on hands, battle rez, and innervate.
what value do you put on those very useful abilities?


I didn't forget, Poisons, vanish, lockpicking, threat dumps, sap, blind, stealth, gouge, disarm are all very useful abilities ;)
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and you forget about the value of utility that has zero dps.
things like blessing of protection, lay on hands, battle rez, and innervate.
what value do you put on those very useful abilities?


I didn't forget, Poisons, vanish, lockpicking, threat dumps, sap, blind, stealth, gouge, disarm are all very useful abilities ;)

lets see. poisons - i can only use one in a raid (Instant poison), lockpicking. yep not useful in a raid. threat dumps. not nearly as useful since were starting with 1.12. sap, blind gouge and disarm? in a raid? who are you kidding. stealth? oh wow. that has almost no raid utility. seeing as this thread is talking about raid viability at this point, you're points are all moot.
I was no change but with the Paladin's never ending tissue saga, I am not behind one. #No Paladins
So when do we fix druid, lock, priest, shaman and hunter dps?
11/11/2018 11:22 AMPosted by Imgayxoxo
So when do we fix druid, lock, priest, shaman and hunter dps?


Or acknowledge that non hybrids often bring a boatload of utility with no penalty on their damage... You keep trying to use rogues as your example because it does your narrative, as rogues primary utility is invalidated by threat being a non issue. Now let's use a different pure. Warlocks for example being 3 raid buff curses that contribute more raid damage than any hybrid utility could dream of, more healing via health stones than any hybrid could put out on their limited mana bars, a brez, one of the only aoe classes, a stamina buff, strong cc options (fear and banish are both used during vanilla raiding at points), and summoning..

The combined package by the purist logic presented here should force warlocks to replace basically every other dps in the game, and yet this is never the case. The purist logic that hybrids are going to suddenly totally replace non hybrid dps if hybrids get buffed to the point where they might actually get an invite simply just doesn't happen anywhere but their paranoid little minds.
11/11/2018 08:59 AMPosted by Brockthorn
11/11/2018 07:36 AMPosted by Matcauthon

and you forget about the value of utility that has zero dps.
things like blessing of protection, lay on hands, battle rez, and innervate.
what value do you put on those very useful abilities?


Just take them all away and give them higher dps.
They want to be as good as pure dps then turn them into pure dps.


They did...in retail... If you want "fixed" Ret DPS then Classic may not be for you but BfA may well be...
11/11/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Busshock
The combined package by the purist logic presented here should force warlocks to replace basically every other dps in the game, and yet this is never the case. The purist logic that hybrids are going to suddenly totally replace non hybrid dps if hybrids get buffed to the point where they might actually get an invite simply just doesn't happen anywhere but their paranoid little minds.


Nah. We already know that isn't the case, because retail. Which, by the way, is over there ==>

You just don't get it. The purpose of this project is not to correct the debated mistakes of the original WoW. It's simply to resurrect the original WoW, so that people can live or re-live that time, like a museum. That's it.
11/11/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Ellilaine
11/11/2018 08:59 AMPosted by Brockthorn
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Just take them all away and give them higher dps.
They want to be as good as pure dps then turn them into pure dps.


They did...in retail... If you want "fixed" Ret DPS then Classic may not be for you but BfA may well be...


I left in Legion so have no idea what they did to pally.
I played this guy in Legion. Leveled up all the way as holy and queued up for dungeons as dps with all my holy stuff and was able to keep middle of the meters.

If I was doing that as holy I can only imagine what Ret was doing.

Now playing a pally on ND. It's a complete different game compared to retail.
And I like the vanilla pally more.

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