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Zaranthosdk,

I agree with you. I don't see myself coming back until flying is introduced. It was cool in Legion because the zones were massive and actually interesting.

Blizzard, I want a path through the game where I can play with a goal of achieving something important over weeks and months at a time. Right now I feel like there is nothing to achieve outside of raiding. The guys I work with that play the game feel the same way. We have no direction and the things you value as being most important aren't what we feel are most important.

Like I said before. The only way I can see change is by voting with my wallet. I'll take away my money, along with the hundred of thousands of others and see if that makes you listen to us. If not, all you do is justify our actions, which you seem to be doing day after day.
10/29/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Akston
I don't do raids, dungeons, pet battles, pvp, quests, professions, old raids for mogs or care about lore.

Raids. Only a small fraction have EVER did raids.
Dungeons. Why? We used to have to do dungeons as part of the gearing pipeline. Now, the dungeons suck, the gear is useless.
Pet Battles. Been a niche activity since added. Now, the've easy-moded them with these "pet charms" available in industrial quantities.
PvP. For casuals? One word. "Pre-mades". No one likes to be farmed.
Quests. Actually, questing is one of the things they got right in BFA. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Other than locking completing the main quest chain behind Mythic dungeons. Why? To force us into mythics.
Professions. What professions? Destroyed. Which also largely destroyed gathering/farming.
Old raids. Same as it ever was. But does it say much for a new expac, when you meet more people in old content, than in current content?
Lore. Seriously? They took "Lore" out back this expac, beat it with baseball bats, then shot it in the back of the head.
10/28/2018 06:31 PMPosted by Steåmhåmmer
I miss World of Warcraft... this is not WoW.

This game has lost me. There is nothing fulfilling, nothing that makes me stand out... I feel like this is nothing but gambling.

Three weeks into the game and my playtime went to <1 hour a week. Why? Because there's nothing worth logging on to do!

Ion, what the hell have you done with this game?! Why does this feel worse than ANY SINGLE expansion within a few months of the game being released?

I don't feel like you've listened to the community. The players vs. the developers is what this feels like. We say "it sucks" and give our reasons why, and you sell us on why the way you do things is better. No. The only way I can get my point across is to take my money away. It's the only way to KNOW my voice is being heard.

Nothing feels good or rewarding in WoW anymore... I don't feel rewarded with the gear I have or have achieved.

The BFA story was fun! Very fun, for me at least. The rep grind wasn't bad either. Now that I've done that.... nothing. There's no long term goal.

:'( Goodbye WoW...


While I am VERY VERY upset with BfA...I was upset with WOD and other expansions as well. I still maintain 2 accounts and I still pay for them (not using tokens). Look, as bad as this is it could always be worse. The game has its moments.

If I stop supporting them it only makes things worse. They will rush to make improvements and probably break more stuff in the process. As it stands I would rather just sub and see if they can't put this disaster back on track.
Simple. WoW isn’t an MMORPG anymore. It feels more and more like a single player game like Witcher only your choices and actions in game have no impact on the environment. LFR you might as well be grouped with a bunch of NPCs for all the social interaction that requires. Same with LFD.


Exactly.

Why would I play WoW (I could care less about cost, 50 cents a day is less than pocket change) when I could play a far superior version of a single player game a la Skyrim w/ The Journey mod pack?

It’s 10x better, more customization, a HELL of a lot more to do. No gating, no mundane rep grinds.

Greed is what is killing the game. Stop being so greedy for money via Pathfinder and mundane grinds/RNG and only THEN will the recovery process start.

Unfortunately it all falls on deaf ears unless money is involved, so the next best thing to do is unsub.
10/29/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Jamesfisk
10/29/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Akston
I don't do raids, dungeons, pet battles, pvp, quests, professions, old raids for mogs or care about lore.

Raids. Only a small fraction have EVER did raids.
Dungeons. Why? We used to have to do dungeons as part of the gearing pipeline. Now, the dungeons suck, the gear is useless.
Pet Battles. Been a niche activity since added. Now, the've easy-moded them with these "pet charms" available in industrial quantities.
PvP. For casuals? One word. "Pre-mades". No one likes to be farmed.
Quests. Actually, questing is one of the things they got right in BFA. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Other than locking completing the main quest chain behind Mythic dungeons. Why? To force us into mythics.
Professions. What professions? Destroyed. Which also largely destroyed gathering/farming.
Old raids. Same as it ever was. But does it say much for a new expac, when you meet more people in old content, than in current content?
Lore. Seriously? They took "Lore" out back this expac, beat it with baseball bats, then shot it in the back of the head.


I am not good at conveying sarcasm. That entire post was supposed to be sarcastic/satire. Making fun of people that list the majority of content in WoW they actively avoid, yet say there is nothing to do in WoW.
10/29/2018 09:45 AMPosted by Vaniira
Simple. WoW isn’t an MMORPG anymore. It feels more and more like a single player game like Witcher only your choices and actions in game have no impact on the environment. LFR you might as well be grouped with a bunch of NPCs for all the social interaction that requires. Same with LFD.


Exactly.

Why would I play WoW (I could care less about cost, 50 cents a day is less than pocket change) when I could play a far superior version of a single player game a la Skyrim w/ The Journey mod pack?

It’s 10x better, more customization, a HELL of a lot more to do. No gating, no mundane rep grinds.

Greed is what is killing the game. Stop being so greedy for money via Pathfinder and mundane grinds/RNG and only THEN will the recovery process start.

Unfortunately it all falls on deaf ears unless money is involved, so the next best thing to do is unsub.


Blizzard is greedy for not giving you what you want?
You dont need 14 hours a day to step outside of LFR. You never have. This is such an insane statement, it conflicts heavily with you calling anyone else a troll.

I raid 3 hours on two nights a weeks. Total of 6 hours a week. I have cleared Uldir Norm, Uldir Heroic, and working on Mythic.


I'm not about chasing gear. I'm not about raiding. It's the carbon-copy actions of Legion to BFA. I don't have a goal that I care about. There was to be this massive war that they did an AMAZING job of selling me at the beginning of BFA but nothing after that. BFA has little to no indistinguishable differences from Legion other than a weapon swap for a necklace that does nothing...

I'm not trying to bash the game I love. I'm trying to bash the ideas that are being presented to us as "New Methodologies" of fun. There were a lot of things in older versions of WoW that were archaic, old, out dated, but also that made it fun and gave you something to works towards on a daily basis. Mine was BG tokens and dungeon tokens. That was what I enjoyed and I had a guild that was like minded and driven to help others get caught up... Now days I can't even get a 5 man group for anything unless there's some SUPER DUPER reward.

No fun is still no fun no matter how you dress the pig...
10/29/2018 09:45 AMPosted by Juniorpio
While I am VERY VERY upset with BfA...I was upset with WOD and other expansions as well. I still maintain 2 accounts and I still pay for them (not using tokens). Look, as bad as this is it could always be worse. The game has its moments.

If I stop supporting them it only makes things worse. They will rush to make improvements and probably break more stuff in the process. As it stands I would rather just sub and see if they can't put this disaster back on track.


I agree with you... Yet I feel like the only way to make a point is with money. Just a personal preference.
10/29/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Steåmhåmmer
You dont need 14 hours a day to step outside of LFR. You never have. This is such an insane statement, it conflicts heavily with you calling anyone else a troll.

I raid 3 hours on two nights a weeks. Total of 6 hours a week. I have cleared Uldir Norm, Uldir Heroic, and working on Mythic.


I'm not about chasing gear. I'm not about raiding. It's the carbon-copy actions of Legion to BFA. I don't have a goal that I care about. There was to be this massive war that they did an AMAZING job of selling me at the beginning of BFA but nothing after that. BFA has little to no indistinguishable differences from Legion other than a weapon swap for a necklace that does nothing...

I'm not trying to bash the game I love. I'm trying to bash the ideas that are being presented to us as "New Methodologies" of fun. There were a lot of things in older versions of WoW that were archaic, old, out dated, but also that made it fun and gave you something to works towards on a daily basis. Mine was BG tokens and dungeon tokens. That was what I enjoyed and I had a guild that was like minded and driven to help others get caught up... Now days I can't even get a 5 man group for anything unless there's some SUPER DUPER reward.

No fun is still no fun no matter how you dress the pig...


And thats fine. Just don't make up blatantly untrue things about what you don't like :P

If you aren't about chasing gear, and character progression through dungeons and raids, maybe WoW is not the game for you. Its been like this for a good 10+ years. There is no problem with enjoying nonWoW games and moving on to them.
10/29/2018 08:20 AMPosted by Rêdmoon
10/29/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Hyperactive
1 hour a week? come on...

do you even do ANYTHING that this game offers as end game?

Any raid takes more than 1h to clear.
Queueing for like a handful of RBGs take more than 1 hour.
Same can be said for Arenas.
Do you even do M+ runs? A few runs put you over an hour.

I don't understand what do you play wow for? The content I listed is basically the endgame / meaningful content of WoW, and has been since like forever?

I wouldn't have a reason to play the game either if I didn't focus on those activities.


The content you listed is the meaningful content for YOU. I have played since Day 1 also, and mmoRPGs for about 5 years before WoW and tabletop RPGs since the late 70s early 80s. I dont do any of the MMO games above. I still log in every day.

You idea of endgame is what has ruined this game. That stuff used to be side items, yet some people think that part is more important than leveling in an mmoRPG! Leveling and the story are the game

If you enjoy leveling and playing casually, that's cool but you have to be kidding if you think that the endgame hasn't been considered "the real game" since vanilla.

Leveling is a finite experience, you eventually hit max level and the majority of your time will be spebt at max level unless you unsub or keep making alts. Same with story, you will eventually read it all. It's really really hard to stay subbed without a break since day one as you say and not run out of content. Even that neutral panda guy is 120.

When I played vanilla, it was all about rushing to 60 so I could finally try raids and endgame dungeons to "start playing the game" because of how much importance the community put on them.

Even that aside, just virtue of time played per level, there's no real doubting that endgame content is extremely important. It doesn't have to be raids or super difficult stuff, but if people have nothing to do at the end, they're gonna quit.

Also I was never even a hardcore raider, it's just a fact that the mentality has always been there and isn't going to go away.
How about Blizzard take the transparent approach of putting out a survey on their home page asking players what they want? I know you will have the trolls and flamers who will ruin it for some, but why not ask!? What do you have to loose?

It's the personal appeals that Blizz does every now and then that really makes it feel like they listen. Here over the last 45-60 days it's felt more like 'Oh crap! More dots!' mode from the DEV and administrative teams.

Surely with all the data metrics you guys collect you could present your player base with questions that would produce meaningful and influential feedback.
10/29/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Rêdmoon
10/29/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Hyperactive
...

There is a very fine line between hard-challenging and "grindy". Just because it took longer to level up, does not mean it's hard im my books. I've played EQ but I was a lot more into Diablo at the time.

Raiding is more challenging than it has ever been in wow. 40 man raids were an absolute joke where you could have 10 players basically afk the entire time.


True. Mechanics are harder today. I dont line dance so I dont raid anymore.

EQ required a group to LEVEL UP say past 20 unless you were a necro or magician. The difficulty wasnt just grinding, it was things like non-instances bosses. That spawn at 2am. WHere one guy in the guild watched the spawn spot and woke the rest of the guild up to take them down. Hopefully you did more damage than the competing guilds or you lost your chance at gear till the next spawn. At 3am. Was it bad game design? Hell yes, but people did it.

At a certain point, the side games of raiding lose their luster when you stop chasing gear.

If anyone disagrees that raiding was a side game in Vanilla, please explain how a game that was in development for 5 years, had its masterpiece starter raid designed in 1 week (1 week!) right before launch?

If you disagree that PvP was a side game in Vanilla, why were ther no rewardsw for PvP at launch. No Pvp Battlegrounds? No balance?

You can rewrite history based on how you feel now, but there are stories out there now about how and why WoW was built. And its not for the hardcore or side games. It was about being EASY.


You seem to be stuck in vanilla, and that is your problem. Vanilla was not anywhere near the best times in wow. If anything it was BC and Wrath for most. Vanilla had an insane amount of issues on its down and half the specs in the game weren't even viable for endgame. A lot of systems were pure garbage and ironed over the years. And the "grindy" mentality was diminished over time because most ppl who play this game don't want/have 10 hours a day to play everyday to remain competitive.

WoW will ALWAYS be easy. It is still easy. It's arguably easier than ever. Leveling is much more casual, atonements and some other grindy requirements for content access are all gone. There are various difficulties implement to please various levels of players. Some people want to be casual and have an easy time, and enjoy LFR/NORMAL/HEROIC. Some want to take it to the next level and play soemthing they consider to be actually challenging, like super high M+ levels, Mythic raiding while it's current end-game (cutting edge), and high rated Player vs Player.

They've added and added to the game since vanilla. They've also ironed out a few systems to make them less boring and grindy generally speaking. The game is MILES better.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Exactly.

Why would I play WoW (I could care less about cost, 50 cents a day is less than pocket change) when I could play a far superior version of a single player game a la Skyrim w/ The Journey mod pack?

It’s 10x better, more customization, a HELL of a lot more to do. No gating, no mundane rep grinds.

Greed is what is killing the game. Stop being so greedy for money via Pathfinder and mundane grinds/RNG and only THEN will the recovery process start.

Unfortunately it all falls on deaf ears unless money is involved, so the next best thing to do is unsub.


Blizzard is greedy for not giving you what you want?


Blizzard is greedy as a company for wanting more money.

The way they’re going about it, Pathfinder being the prime example, taking 8 months to “unlock”. Like what?

Greed is a deadly sin after all
10/29/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Akston
I am not good at conveying sarcasm. That entire post was supposed to be sarcastic/satire. Making fun of people that list the majority of content in WoW they actively avoid, yet say there is nothing to do in WoW.


No, I got it. Problem is, they've made most of those activities unrewarding. Grinding for the sake of grinding, no reason to do them, no progression. Then made them even more pointless, by handing out free epics for everyone. Why are they giving us loot pinatas for example, when we could be grinding the low level epics out in normal/heroic dungeon runs...same as it ever was?

Everyone likes different things. We used to all be able to do different things, avoid some things, do others, find our own playstyles, make the game rewarding on our own terms.

But Blizz/Ion's answer to everything, seems to be to rain epics, mounts, pets, and toys from the sky, for doing pretty much nothing, based on RNG...rather than rewarding gameplay. While hacking our ability to choose or make our own playstyles out of the game.
10/29/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Vaniira
...

Blizzard is greedy for not giving you what you want?


Blizzard is greedy as a company for wanting more money.

The way they’re going about it, Pathfinder being the prime example, taking 8 months to “unlock”. Like what?

Greed is a deadly sin after all


I refuse to do business with any company that is not trying to earn more money.

A company trying not to make money, is typically a company that does not stay around long.
10/29/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Akston
And thats fine. Just don't make up blatantly untrue things about what you don't like :P

If you aren't about chasing gear, and character progression through dungeons and raids, maybe WoW is not the game for you. Its been like this for a good 10+ years. There is no problem with enjoying nonWoW games and moving on to them.


I see what you are saying, and I appreciate your perspective. I too have given this some thought, mainly from your perspective. Here's where I hang up:

First, the game has evolved into what it is now. Along the way I feel things were lost that brought value to experiences. The value is subjective, but there are many people who also feel the value has been lost. So, is this a problem with the player or a problem with the content?

If it's the players through and through, so be it, but I doubt that seriously. In my opinion it's HOW the content is sliced up and delivered. There's different ways to make things hard.

When you develop a game, you need to bear your target audience's abilities in mind, and that our own preconceptions of "simple" and "hard" can be skewed.

These can be broken down further into subcategories:

1. What do players want?
This is why I ask Blizzard to actually reach out to their player base and ask.

2. Making Difficult Fun
What is fun for players? Is it what is played most? Is that skewed by a game requirement or because it generates 'buzz'?

3. A Game Everyone Can Enjoy
I'll be the first to admit I don't play this game hardcore. I do however pay $15 a month and log in nearly every single day for a few hours at a time. Surely I'm not the only one who feels the game has been driven away from us.

4. Does the game get harder as the skill of the player increases?
yes. This is something Blizz has done a great job at, yet they have also produced a toxic sesspool of players that attack any new additions who may not be perfect the first time out of the gate.

5. Is this something the player can be realistically expected to do, or are they going to fail?
Great examples are the Mage Tower challenges. Man, for me that was HARD! Yet - I found it very rewarding. This was something for ME... it didn't mean I had to rely on anyone else.

I don't know what you can gleam from the above text, but that's my thoughts on where WoW is today.
...

Blizzard is greedy as a company for wanting more money.

The way they’re going about it, Pathfinder being the prime example, taking 8 months to “unlock”. Like what?

Greed is a deadly sin after all


I refuse to do business with any company that is not trying to earn more money.

A company trying not to make money, is typically a company that does not stay around long.


Even when that soul purpose of said doing is nothing more than to milk players?

Even when said company has 5 other games that ALL make more money than their MMO?

It’s greed.
10/29/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Rêdmoon
...

True. Mechanics are harder today. I dont line dance so I dont raid anymore.

EQ required a group to LEVEL UP say past 20 unless you were a necro or magician. The difficulty wasnt just grinding, it was things like non-instances bosses. That spawn at 2am. WHere one guy in the guild watched the spawn spot and woke the rest of the guild up to take them down. Hopefully you did more damage than the competing guilds or you lost your chance at gear till the next spawn. At 3am. Was it bad game design? Hell yes, but people did it.

At a certain point, the side games of raiding lose their luster when you stop chasing gear.

If anyone disagrees that raiding was a side game in Vanilla, please explain how a game that was in development for 5 years, had its masterpiece starter raid designed in 1 week (1 week!) right before launch?

If you disagree that PvP was a side game in Vanilla, why were ther no rewardsw for PvP at launch. No Pvp Battlegrounds? No balance?

You can rewrite history based on how you feel now, but there are stories out there now about how and why WoW was built. And its not for the hardcore or side games. It was about being EASY.


You seem to be stuck in vanilla, and that is your problem. Vanilla was not anywhere near the best times in wow. If anything it was BC and Wrath for most. Vanilla had an insane amount of issues on its down and half the specs in the game weren't even viable for endgame. A lot of systems were pure garbage and ironed over the years. And the "grindy" mentality was diminished over time because most ppl who play this game don't want/have 10 hours a day to play everyday to remain competitive.

[/quote]

I am not stuck in Vanilla, but thats what this thread was talking about. How Vanilla was all about endgame (raid/Pvp or quit) and it simply is not true.

I bolded the part that does NOT belong in an MMORPG. Competition is what creates the toxic community. Everyone trying to keep up with the Jones. My favorite times in these games were when the communities were CASUAL. Hey, need a warm body at the orc camp. Need one more for Dead mines. Its lets take whoever comes along because we need bodies. Now its all, I am soo good that I dont have to put up with scrubs like you.

The worst decision ever in this game was GC "L2P" dev watercooler. His fanbois liked it. The majority of the playerbase didnt.
It's not rewarding. The World Quests aren't rewarding. The Follower Missions aren't rewarding. Raiding isn't rewarding. Even doing mythics isn't rewarding. Until the forums tore Blizz a new one, transmog runs weren't going to be rewarding either. Leveling isn't rewarding. Learning your class, when very few classes are fun to play right now, if not outright broken, isn't rewarding. Spending 5 minutes waiting for my computer to render the expansions faction hub isn't rewarding.
Fundamental problem with WoW IMO? Is that Ion et al. and his merry band of devs, share the same attitudes as most of the toxic elitists found on these forums. There's either high-end raiders...or a bunch of worthless scrubs to placate with effortless freebies.

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