Deserter debuff is a problem.

General Discussion
11/01/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Thaallia
What are you doing to get kicked daily?

I've never been kicked, like ever.


This exactly. If you are getting kicked daily, then you are probably the problem. If you want to play your way, make your own group. If you Queue, you have to accept the rules of the majority.
11/01/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Ryuk
You shouldn't be wasting time exploring in an Island Expedition. It's on a timer and if you're not contributing I'd kick you too.


Basically this. Next time use custom group finder for exploring islands. People queuing up solo are looking to win.
11/01/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Wichasha
11/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Anorela
Its a big problem in the game in my opinion. Its heavily abused. I've always felt it should be redesigned to make players who are active within the instance be immune to vote kicking. I feel like it should only be there for AFK players which makes sense. If someone is being a jerk then report them for it and finish the instance. It should be based on participation and when the system sees you have a certain activity level within the instance then you are immune to being vote kicked. The current system discourages me from playing sometimes, and makes me not want to participate in parts of the game. I can only imagine how new players must feel like when this happens to them and they don't know why. It needs to change. It should've changed years ago.


I disagree entirely. The group finder is there to provide the greatest amount of convenience to the greatest amount of people. "Participation protection", as you are suggesting, creates a breakdown of the system, as those most capable of carrying a group gimped by poor participation begin avoiding it due to it becoming an inefficient tool. By allowing the majority to kick for any reason, it preserves the likelihood that any given group created by the group finder succeeds.

People that aren't consistently contributing to a group to the satisfaction of a majority of players need to find friends, guilds, and communities that can help them complete their objectives and/or learn how to improve their play.


You can improve your play all the day long it still won't protect you from the bad people out there. Disagree all you want, but the system isn't as good as it could be and has room for a lot of improvement. Participation value ensures you aren't punished for playing the game, which people shouldn't be. If they won't do that, then do away with the deserter debuff. Being removed from a half completed dungeon is punishment enough. Having to wait 30 minutes on top of having to redo the content you already cleared is ridiculous. If the deserter has to stay there, then reduce it to 5 minutes. That at least helps prevent players from getting back into the same group. Theres a lot of ways they can go about making it better. People complain about it all the time so the demand for a better system is there. Now we just need the supply.
11/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Anorela
It should be based on participation and when the system sees you have a certain activity level within the instance then you are immune to being vote kicked.


i see your point but how what about a situation where a person keeps pulling extra mobs and keeps wiping the group? Based on your idea, the system would deem them as a participator and would be immune to kicking.
I've healed so many dungeons...sometimes players don't understand English and you can't explain to them what they are doing wrong or they just dont listen. A vote to kick in this instance is needed to save the group from an hour long random heroic disaster.

Edit: I'll also add that your suggestion would mean players who are rude, vulgar, and straight up mean but who are also doing the dungeon right would be immune to kicking. I know you can just block someone but a person who is berating anyone in the dungeon just does not deserve to be there and should get a time out.
11/01/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Kyx
I've been kicked, COUNTING EVERY CHARACTER I HAVE, like 3 times from the day it was implemented!


Pretty much this. I've been kicked maybe once mid-instance, and I knew it was coming. I reacted poorly to another person's play-style and let it get to me.

But outside of that, I'm not a min-maxer. I have very few keybinds. I don't have a custom UI and I sometimes screw up my rotation. In spite of that I don't get on anyones' radar and get myself kicked because I'm already doing what you think should protect you from getting kicked. Doing at least a half-decent job at my role, not provoking other players, and sticking to the group's strategy. No additional protection is needed besides the effort you put in to protect yourself.
11/01/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Kyx
11/01/2018 09:42 AMPosted by Anorela
It should be based on participation so another words if you're active you can't be kicked.


Active doesn't mean anything. I can sit off in a corner spamming regrowth and the game will see me as active. Or stealth around killing critters. Or pulling the whole dungeon onto the party and shadowmelding.

The kick is there for one reason and one reason only:

The majority of the party doesn't want you there.


I've been kicked, COUNTING EVERY CHARACTER I HAVE, like 3 times from the day it was implemented!

This is a you problem, not a game problem.


This is not any person's own problem because you can't control the free will actions of others. I don't care how many times you've been kicked from a group. This is a universal issue that affects everyone differently. When I say active, I do mean parameters that should be met to get the active status. Its not hard to make it so where having all your damage on a critter, or all your heals on yourself tells the game you're doing something wrong. It should be easy to tell the game you're there doing stuff to help if you have damage on everything everyone else or healing multiple players. Your "what if" scenarios do not justify the continuation of a system that needs to be improved.
11/01/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Anorela
Participation value ensures you aren't punished for playing the game, which people shouldn't be.


I'll fix this for you.

Participation value ensures other players are punished for playing the game, which people shouldn't be.
11/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Anorela
Its a big problem in the game in my opinion. Its heavily abused. I've always felt it should be redesigned to make players who are active within the instance be immune to vote kicking. I feel like it should only be there for AFK players which makes sense. If someone is being a jerk then report them for it and finish the instance. It should be based on participation and when the system sees you have a certain activity level within the instance then you are immune to being vote kicked. The current system discourages me from playing sometimes, and makes me not want to participate in parts of the game. I can only imagine how new players must feel like when this happens to them and they don't know why. It needs to change. It should've changed years ago.


And your suggestion about people who are actively doing stuff being immune is wrong too. I'll use an example I had the other day leveling my Dark Iron priest. Druid tank refused to get off resto and into tank spec, at least pulled in bear form. He never stopped pulling, are you saying he should be immune to being kicked for refusing to actively help the group because he's doing stuff.
How come every problem in the game, no matter how minor or how major, is leading to SOOOOOO many unsubs? If deserter hasn't made you quit the last like 5+ years it's been in the game, why now?

This is the only way to penalize people for being a problem. I don't have many issues with other plays, almost ever. I don't see where everyone has alllll these problems every single day. I can't even remember the last time we kicked someone.

But I do remember a lovely shammy, who kept pulling things on accident. When we asked him to stop and be more aware, he started actively pulling 2+ sets of mobs just to be spiteful. If we couldn't of kicked him, we wouldn't of finished the instance. That's time out of MY life and 3 other people's lives that we would've lost.

Even before LFG's vote system, the group leader could simply boot you. So, kicking people has been in the game since the beginning.

If you want shorter queue times, literally your only option is to roll tank or a healer for slightly less queue times. Hell, take out deserter debuff, you've now got MORE people queu'ing for dungeons at one time (because no one has the debuff = more people queu'ing), and I'd assume your queue time would be even LONGER. Probably not by much... But still.
11/01/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Maizono
11/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Anorela
Its a big problem in the game in my opinion. Its heavily abused. I've always felt it should be redesigned to make players who are active within the instance be immune to vote kicking. I feel like it should only be there for AFK players which makes sense. If someone is being a jerk then report them for it and finish the instance. It should be based on participation and when the system sees you have a certain activity level within the instance then you are immune to being vote kicked. The current system discourages me from playing sometimes, and makes me not want to participate in parts of the game. I can only imagine how new players must feel like when this happens to them and they don't know why. It needs to change. It should've changed years ago.


And your suggestion about people who are actively doing stuff being immune is wrong too. I'll use an example I had the other day leveling my Dark Iron priest. Druid tank refused to get off resto and into tank spec, at least pulled in bear form. He never stopped pulling, are you saying he should be immune to being kicked for refusing to actively help the group because he's doing stuff.


They're saying the system should be intelligent enough to determine you're not within the sweet spot for your spec, including being in that spec, not targeting critters or yourself, etc.

I mean, I'm not going to argue that having that intelligent of a system wouldn't be nice. I just don't agree that the system is so broken that it's needed. I do believe that there are times where the VTK is abused. But I'm not sure the programming required to create such a system is worth the effort. Most (not all) people just don't want to accept they bear some responsibility to improve their play.
If you’re getting kicked on the daily, man, it’s a you problem
If you're getting vote kicked on the regular then you're clearly the problem. Maybe take the hint and stop clowning around in your groups.
11/01/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Noobàdin
If you're getting vote kicked on the regular then you're clearly the problem. Maybe take the hint and stop clowning around in your groups.


This times 1000. The deserter should be 24 hours and if 3 times permanent ban from the game. These toxic players need to go.
11/01/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Anorela
This is not any person's own problem because you can't control the free will actions of others. I don't care how many times you've been kicked from a group. This is a universal issue that affects everyone differently. When I say active, I do mean parameters that should be met to get the active status. Its not hard to make it so where having all your damage on a critter, or all your heals on yourself tells the game you're doing something wrong. It should be easy to tell the game you're there doing stuff to help if you have damage on everything everyone else or healing multiple players. Your "what if" scenarios do not justify the continuation of a system that needs to be improved.


So tempted to tear you a new one, but I'm going to assume by the responses you've given that you're a kid or ESL/google translate, and play nice for now.

It's not a "universal issue". If it was, more than a random few would be having the issue. The ones with the problems refuse to look at themselves and see WHY they're being kicked. The fact that you said "don't care how many times you've been kicked" PROVES you only care about getting the confirmation you want and not a discussion. The dismissal of the "what if" examples with NO counter argument shows you're only after one thing, forcing groups to carry you, you and those like you are EXACTLY why the rest of us are thankful for the VTK system.

There is no way a "Participation trophy" system could be immune to abuse and exploitation.

The fact that a sub-par, but team player, like me DOESN'T get kicked shows it's only a problem to those that are the problem.

Look at yourself, fix the issue, or enjoy your deserter debuff.


Edit: Old WoW proverb about playing in a group, but still holds true:

It may be your $15/mo. to play as you want, but it's the rest of the parties $60 to play without you.
I keep seeing these threads and wonder how it is I've never been kicked from a group. Ever. Not even once... and I'm the guy who doesn't know what the heck is going on half the time.

What exactly are you doing to get kicked every day???

p.s. "Inconvenient" is not the same thing as "problem"... and I seriously doubt this will be what drives a noticeable drop in subs.
Kicking in raids requires a lot more agreement to get rid of the problem.

Kicking in dungeons requires some agreement (and was, as I recall, whined about in GC back when it was implemented, usually about "guild groups" and "premades" booting the LFD players).

Kicking in IE's requires ONE PERSON to agree to the kick. That's it. And this is the core of the problem, in that a large-group-driven system has not been scaled from large groups to small groups.

While I agree that people in these instances need to coordinate what they're doing in order to 'succeed', there's also a need for some ... disincentive ... against kicking. Just as the person booted gets a debuff, so should the person who initiated the kick vote, whether it succeeds or fails. Other games have a "plays well with others" metric, such that antisocial behavior such as kicking or ninja looting carries a stigma, making it harder for THEM to find groups in the first place. As these actions are carried out, the group finders stop pairing them with just anyone, and instead makes them wait for others with a similar bad rap.

What this does is make sure that people actually consider consequences before initiating a kick - sure you'll get rid of someone you don't think is 'valuable' now, but doing it every time results in being paired up with worse players the next time around (and also increases queue times).

Another possible way to help with this problem is put the instance players into a lobby, prior to the actual instance. It becomes an opportunity for strategy as well as a ready check. There would no vote to kick here, instead a voluntary "bail" option that allows someone to leave if they think the group isn't a good match for them. Bailing at this time would not carry a debuff.
11/01/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Ryuk
You shouldn't be wasting time exploring in an Island Expedition. It's on a timer and if you're not contributing I'd kick you too.


Pets and mounts are the real reward for expeditions. AP is inconsequential.
Agree. "Deserter" should only be applied when a player actually "deserts" by leaving a group or BG.

Getting kicked is beyond your control and you shouldn't be punished because of the actions of others.
11/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Anorela
Its a big problem in the game in my opinion. Its heavily abused. I've always felt it should be redesigned to make players who are active within the instance be immune to vote kicking. I feel like it should only be there for AFK players which makes sense. If someone is being a jerk then report them for it and finish the instance. It should be based on participation and when the system sees you have a certain activity level within the instance then you are immune to being vote kicked. The current system discourages me from playing sometimes, and makes me not want to participate in parts of the game. I can only imagine how new players must feel like when this happens to them and they don't know why. It needs to change. It should've changed years ago.


There's always one perpetual victim. If you're getting targeted for kicks maybe it's a you problem and not these mean bully jerks....

11/01/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Carbolic
11/01/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Ryuk
You shouldn't be wasting time exploring in an Island Expedition. It's on a timer and if you're not contributing I'd kick you too.


Because obviously YOUR way is the ONLY way to play the game.


Because obviously if YOU get kicked it's because the MAJORITY voted to remove you from the group.

If you want to do something other than win then make your own group and don't waste other people's time.
11/01/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Ryuk
11/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Anorela
Its a big problem in the game in my opinion. Its heavily abused. I've always felt it should be redesigned to make players who are active within the instance be immune to vote kicking. I feel like it should only be there for AFK players which makes sense. If someone is being a jerk then report them for it and finish the instance. It should be based on participation and when the system sees you have a certain activity level within the instance then you are immune to being vote kicked. The current system discourages me from playing sometimes, and makes me not want to participate in parts of the game. I can only imagine how new players must feel like when this happens to them and they don't know why. It needs to change. It should've changed years ago.


There's always one perpetual victim. If you're getting targeted for kicks maybe it's a you problem and not these mean bully jerks....

11/01/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Carbolic
...

Because obviously YOUR way is the ONLY way to play the game.


Because obviously if YOU get kicked it's because the MAJORITY voted to remove you from the group.

If you want to do something other than win then make your own group and don't waste other people's time.

Most of the time, group members are barely aware of what they're being asked to do. I was in a group where they voted to kick the tank before the last boss, just because the player who initiated the vote was fooling around. You can't always conclude that a vote to kick was actually purposeful. A lot of times it's not.

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