Jaina Makes The Horde Players Losers A Lot.

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11/06/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Serevèn
Yeah. And Zero saves X at the beginning of his game. Its pretty basic storytelling. The beginning of a story is the struggle. It sets stakes. Shows what you need to overcome. Its the nature of a syndicated story that there are resets, in this case being after an expac. So yeah, we just killed gods. And yeah, now Jaina is scurry. It's how it goes.


Your reference means nothing to me. I don't play... Megaman, was that?

My point is that we never overcome Jaina. She shows up, invalidates a large chunk of Horde characters with her mere presence, and then we're saved by the next arc's villain. Then the next time we face Jaina she escapes after succeeding in her assault on Zuldazar.

And we probably will never be allowed to kill Jaina. Her character is too important to Blizzard's marketing right now, and they are investing a ton of resources into building her up. I think that is what really bothers Horde players the most. We know we can't beat her not because of in-universe reasons but because she has plot armor so thick she may as well be wearing a suit of Shonen Protagonists.

On top of that the narrative keeps justifying her actions. She's not our enemy, we are her enemy. We're the bad guys in her story. The story hasn't given me a compelling reason to want to hurt Jaina, only fear her righteous fury.

They've even made her lighten her stance on war to further make us feel like dicks for being against her.
11/06/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Kisin
My point is that we never overcome Jaina. She shows up, invalidates a large chunk of Horde characters with her mere presence, and then we're saved by the next arc's villain. Then the next time we face Jaina she escapes after succeeding in her assault on Zuldazar.
So she's the Alliance's Nathanos, only less smug?
11/06/2018 05:20 PMPosted by Jerolan
So she's the Alliance's Nathanos, only less smug?


I have a vague memory of fighting Nathanos 1v1 (or maybe with Genn?) during Stormheim. Or maybe I was with Nathanos fighting Genn.

Either way, he's not as extreme as Jaina. He's not really presented as a foe that is so great entire hit squads of Alliance heroes can't beat. You don't run from Nathanos, he runs from you.

You're also 100% justified in fighting him and given ample reason to want to fight him. There is no moral ambiguity concerning the righteousness of kicking his smug butt.
Well maybe you jerks shouldn't have kept attacking Theramore!
11/06/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Kisin
Either way, he's not as extreme as Jaina. He's not really presented as a foe that is so great entire hit squads of Alliance heroes can't beat.
Well don't let the 10 Sylvanas fanboys that can stomach him hear you say that.
Well 1 time during gilnean questline. she kills liam and flees.
We attempt and I use attempt liberally in darkshore. But she insta stuns us.
Wars are not won by singular beings unless they tower over mountains or swipe away cities with a flick of a wrist.

No. If we want definitive results then it will be through attrition. The Banshee Queen understands this. It is why the Horde will win or we all lose.
11/06/2018 05:20 PMPosted by Jerolan
11/06/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Kisin
My point is that we never overcome Jaina. She shows up, invalidates a large chunk of Horde characters with her mere presence, and then we're saved by the next arc's villain. Then the next time we face Jaina she escapes after succeeding in her assault on Zuldazar.
So she's the Alliance's Nathanos, only less smug?


Nathanos' smugness is why I kinda like him. He's about the only faction NPC that *doesn't* blow smoke up the PC's butt.
11/06/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Ironbulwalk
No. If we want definitive results then it will be through attrition. The Banshee Queen understands this. It is why the Horde will win or we all lose.


The Dark Portal, left unguarded, was reclaimed by the Burning Legion. Horrors rose from the sea and found no champions left to stop them.

Azeroth's mountains burned and melted. Its oceans boiled until nothing remained. And all was dark.


That vision was about Garrosh, but we all know it just as applicable to Sylvanas, a war of attrition will be everyone's doom.
we only ran from her in the bfa scenario because we're in the middle of stormwind with an army bearing down on us.

we didn't have the time needed to put someone that strong down, even though we likely could have.

the other times, it was just us alone, and we hadn't yet had our legion omega power up.
Theramore Scenario:
Jaina is surrounded by Kalec and Rhonin, two other extremely powerful magi that aid her. Don't spread BS where it isn't meritted.

Purge of Dalaran:
Jaina is accompanied by two water elementals and will not engage you if she is busy with other NPCs. She does not one-shot you but certainly will kill you alone.

BFA Introduction.:
You are invading Alliance territory and only accompanied with only a handful of people. Jaina is raid material and her AOE ability is meant to slow you down and have the massed armies slaughter you.

8.1 Raid:
No, its not 50%. She will be lowered to fatal health and is forced to retreat. You destroy her forces, nearly take her life, and force the Alliance out of Dazar'alor.

Jaina hasn't done anything remotely like the Horde has done. Invading multiple cities unscathed. (Darnassus, Stormwind, Theramore). Destroyed two of those cities with ease. And still stand strong even when pitted against impossible odds. The Horde are not to be made losers; but make clear mockeries of the Alliance leadership despite all their power.
The issue is that Jaina lives while we lose Rastakhan.

The one character we had who might be able to compete with the uber-strong alliance heroes and one of the better written horde characters.

I wont say she is a mary sue, but i do think she is a creators pet. Battle of Undercity 2.0, the fact she managed to be made the leader of kul tiras despite the population hating her, how she always is shown to be far stronger then any character on the horde, and now the fact she escapes with 10% hp. It does not help the fact she could have been the alliances Sylvanas, actually giving the horde motivation, but they did not do that to her. In the end i find her a weak character, who fails to go throug proper character development, is way to strong to keep narrative tension, and fails to play a good antagonistic force to the horde, which is what blizzard wanted her to do starting in mist.
11/06/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Kisin
My point is that we never overcome Jaina. She shows up, invalidates a large chunk of Horde characters with her mere presence, and then we're saved by the next arc's villain. Then the next time we face Jaina she escapes after succeeding in her assault on Zuldazar.


To be fair, next time we face Jaina it's also going to take 10 of our strongest heroes to even make her withdraw. Which seems terrible, but it at least caps her power level and lets me come back to solo her next expansion.
11/06/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Zerde
After the crap the Horde pull at Theramore i say good on Jaina. Best part is the Horde created their own worse enemy.

How many times have Alliance players PERSONALLY fought Sylvanas and been forced to auto-lose? 0?


How many Horde cities have the Alliance mana bomb? Zero, hell The Undercity was destroyed by Sylvanas. So dont whine about faction parity to me.
dude you can't honestly believe the alliance racial leaders aren't overpowered. How many high kings or racial leaders have you guys lost? We go through ours like coffee paper while yours crawl out of the wood work. Ulmbric is somehow an uber tier Mage rommath hangs out in in silver moon. Something needs to happen to even it out starting with Jaina because christ she is unbearable.
...Oh no a partisan post in a partisan thread whining over one of the least egregious examples of plot armor in a game whose narrative has always used plot armor and unearned moments to progress. The Horde deserve at least ONE enemy character who can run opposition against them. Heck, if they weren't portrayed as unstoppable brutal underdogs whom are vehemently against bigotry but pro genocide if those other guys really deserve it, it wouldn't seem so farfetched as to call someone armored by the plot when they stand a chance against them.


Jesus, c'mon now. this is a little ridiculous.

Yes, the horde has been written poorly in its convictions. I don't see why that has anything to do with this.

No genocidal act the horde has done has ever been considered good "if they really deserved it" they are all framed at an atrocity.

I dont know whether or not I would refer to how Jaina is treated when she is hostile to the Horde PC as "plot armor" but I would say it is annoying. The way you are framing it is disingenuous. What the OP was referring to wasn't a character "standing a chance against the horde", he was referring to a character one-shotting any horde who got near them and being annoyingly overpowered in ways that arent enjoyable for the horde player.

The horde is not portrayed solely as some unstoppable, unlosing force. Please try to cut the partisan crap and discuss this in a more meta sense, please.


Not to put a point on it, but the Alliance never has fought Horde heroes like I alluded to outside of SoO or end times. We don’t get a chance to fight against Sylvanas, or Lor’themar, or baine, or...well, anyone. That’s part of the point. You guys have fought our heroes, characters we have as part of our story. We...don’t


Alliance has fought horde hero’s, and horde hero’s have died. This is even more obvious when horde characters are hit with villain bat and end up as raid bosses or quest trash.

Also horde doesn’t have any characters that fight alliance and walk away one shooting them like Jaina.
11/06/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Ayaani

The whole reason Jaina started her whole anti-horde schtick is because of Theramore...


Let's be honest. She was taught a lesson about turning her city south of Horde territory into a military base with a newly constructed highway to launch an invasion into the Barrens and Tauren Lands.

Jaina being some scary monster that we have to run from is just a symptom of inconsistent story telling. Players were just champions of their Class Order Halls and fought in the Pantheon against a desecrated Titan. Why wasn't this super scary mage there on Argus with us? She definitely seems stronger than Khadgar. The writers will change the story and retcon things as soon as they need to. Right now the Horde need to run away from Jaina because she's their perfect little Human Princesses who is Auntie to their Golden Boy Anduin Christ Wrynn.
For me at least, defeating Jaina is enough. We clearly will win. We are clearly better than her.

Oh, and Mekkatorque nearly killed.
11/08/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Ningjinq
For me at least, defeating Jaina is enough. We clearly will win. We are clearly better than her.

Oh, and Mekkatorque nearly killed.
Jaina's stated goal before the fight is to waste the Horde's time so the Alliance can withdraw after sinking the Zandi fleet and killing their king. She's successful, and leaves once she's wasted enough of everyone's time.

Oh, and Mekkatorque gets upgraded to mechagnome so he can welcome an Allied Race to the Alliance in 8.2
11/06/2018 02:49 PMPosted by Kisin
Another thing that annoyed me about the Stormwind encounter is that the PC was far from alone.

We had an extremely powerful priest in Talanji, a master shadowhunter who has been a hero of the Horde since WC3 in Rokhan, a master arcanist with 10,000+ years of experience in Thalyssra, and a prophet that can see the future down to the second in Zul, all in addition to the PC who is one of the most powerful fighters in the world. Then later Nathanos joins us, a very capable dark ranger.

Then they all crap themselves in utter terror at Jaina.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid. We had a LOT of heavy hitting power in that strike team, and while it makes perfect sense that we can't fight the entirety of Stormwind ourselves and need to get out fast, the fear of Jaina specifically felt incredibly forced given out number of powerful NPCs.

It was basically Blizzard telling us that one Jaina is equal to a whole handful of the Horde's strongest heroes.
HuMaN pOtEnTiAl
11/06/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Hahahahahaha
More than any other monster in the game, Horde players are forced to auto-lose against Jaina over and over and over again.

Theramore scenario: If Horde get too close to her she will kill their entire team in 1 shot.
Purge scenario: If Horde are seen by her she instant teleports them to jail OR instant kills them.
BFA intro: Every single Horde player in the game is forced to run from her in terror. If they don't, instant death.
8.1 raid final boss: When she reaches 50% health she laughs in the Horde's face and teleports away.

How many times have Alliance players PERSONALLY fought Sylvanas and been forced to auto-lose? 0?


You sound salty, perhaps dont !@#$ with arcmages? These discussions never end well, why bring it up?

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