Jaina Makes The Horde Players Losers A Lot.

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11/08/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Zerde
So your points are that Thrall and Vol'jin could get the same treatment so it's ok for Jaina to be OP at the moment?


Thrall already had that moment, and possibly will again. Personally I want Jaina to be OP/be a better character due to everythinh she went though.

It's not like alliance "heroes" ever really pay for their "crimes." Although some people consider defending your home or resisting arrest an executable offense.


You mean like how Grom is a hero to the Horde even after all te misery he caused to the Alliance?

As for "paying for our crimes", Jaina went to a hell dimension, I consider that more than payment.

So jaina being punished by her own people for not letting her father wipe out the orcs is somehow her paying for her crimes, but grom dying to spiritually free the orcs from demon control is him getting off easy?
11/08/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Saiphas
She is for us, not y’all.


I think some others have touched on this, Saiphas, but this is really where the sore spot is. She's your character, except for the fact that Jaina thrusts herself into the Horde narrative quite a lot, as Threeslot pointed out in the original post. And it's probably in a similar, if different, fashion to how Sylvanas serves as the Alliance's antagonist (even if she isn't quite so in-your-face, which is Nathanos' job).

Horde players grind their teeth about how Jaina's righteous anger and incredible overpoweredness are continually used as a cudgel to belabor them. Alliance players hate how Sylvanas makes their leaders look like fools and skips away from her actions consequence-free. But there are a couple of key differences; Jaina gets more development for Alliance players and is a heroine to her faction, whereas the writers are currently dragging Sylvanas through the mud to drive their chosen story arc. If Horde players loved Sylvanas and hated Jaina, but Alliance players loved Jaina and hated Sylvanas, there would be less of an issue. Instead, Horde players feel ashamed of Sylvanas (or some do, anyway) and are supposed to be sympathetic towards Jaina, whereas the Alliance... loves Jaina and hates Sylvanas.

Then there's the issue of their appearance in playable content. No one ever thought Jaina would even come within hailing distance of being killed when she was announced as an 8.1 raid boss, but there is a real and justifiable fear among Horde players that Sylvanas is destined for loot-pinatahood, ending the arc of what could have been a second great character as a sparkling corpse at the players' feet. I know your personal opinion is that Sylvanas won't be raidbossed, Saiphas, but I believe you can see there is plenty of evidence to justify such a fear.
11/08/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Jellex
11/08/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Saiphas
She is for us, not y’all.


I think some others have touched on this, Saiphas, but this is really where the sore spot is. She's your character, except for the fact that Jaina thrusts herself into the Horde narrative quite a lot, as Threeslot pointed out in the original post. And it's probably in a similar, if different, fashion to how Sylvanas serves as the Alliance's antagonist (even if she isn't quite so in-your-face, which is Nathanos' job).

Horde players grind their teeth about how Jaina's righteous anger and incredible overpoweredness are continually used as a cudgel to belabor them. Alliance players hate how Sylvanas makes their leaders look like fools and skips away from her actions consequence-free. But there are a couple of key differences; Jaina gets more development for Alliance players and is a heroine to her faction, whereas the writers are currently dragging Sylvanas through the mud to drive their chosen story arc. If Horde players loved Sylvanas and hated Jaina, but Alliance players loved Jaina and hated Sylvanas, there would be less of an issue. Instead, Horde players feel ashamed of Sylvanas (or some do, anyway) and are supposed to be sympathetic towards Jaina, whereas the Alliance... loves Jaina and hates Sylvanas.

Then there's the issue of their appearance in playable content. No one ever thought Jaina would even come within hailing distance of being killed when she was announced as an 8.1 raid boss, but there is a real and justifiable fear among Horde players that Sylvanas is destined for loot-pinatahood, ending the arc of what could have been a second great character as a sparkling corpse at the players' feet. I know your personal opinion is that Sylvanas won't be raidbossed, Saiphas, but I believe you can see there is plenty of evidence to justify such a fear.


So, I am quoting Jellex but I am going to try and address all the concerns of everyone else in the discussion. First, I emphatically empathize with where you guys are coming from. Cannibal in one of the other threads remarked that he hated seeing the core of what he ascribed to the Horde undermined and destroyed. That, for me, was my experience with WC3. I fundamentally understand how much it absolutely sucks to have your narrative trashed, your heroes trampled, and to have themes you enjoy removed. I say all this not to try and whatabout this, but rather explain I can relate.

This is my fundamental issue I have had with the faction conflict since day one. It creates a zero-sum situation, where when you see the other side have a specific positive, it creates a negative sentiment in you (universal not Jellex specifically).

The other point, which I tried to raise at the start of this thread, is the fact that the Alliance, until maybe Nathanos, has not fought Horde heroes outside of SoO in a meaningful way. We don't have an event like Theramore where we fight an OP Thrall. We don't have a purge where we have to dodge and run from Liadrin and a mob of Blood Knights, we don't even have a strike on an enemy capitol ala the Horde intro. We just don't get to interact with your heroes the way you do ours. Instead, we get to deal with the effects of your Hero's agency in your story. the closest we have to any of Jaina's 1 sidedness had been Nattyboy in 8.0, that was it.

I hope my posts have not shown a lack of empathy, rather I am trying to show empathy while also giving context to the Alliance's perspective, fwiw.

Edit: Found Cannibal's post here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769709243?page=1#post-20
11/08/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Revaniite
11/06/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Hahahahahaha
More than any other monster in the game, Horde players are forced to auto-lose against Jaina over and over and over again.

Theramore scenario: If Horde get too close to her she will kill their entire team in 1 shot.
Purge scenario: If Horde are seen by her she instant teleports them to jail OR instant kills them.
BFA intro: Every single Horde player in the game is forced to run from her in terror. If they don't, instant death.
8.1 raid final boss: When she reaches 50% health she laughs in the Horde's face and teleports away.

How many times have Alliance players PERSONALLY fought Sylvanas and been forced to auto-lose? 0?


You sound salty, perhaps dont !@#$ with arcmages? These discussions never end well, why bring it up?


The issue isn't that she's a archmage - we handle those routinely. It's that she's a faction leader and therefore has the requisite plot armour.

The only thing unusual about Jaina is that Blizzard doesn't normally use faction leaders in direct confrontations with the players precisely because it is creating a situation where the players can't win for plot reasons. Jaina is kind of an exception here because of how frequently they write her confronting the Horde PC.

If she wasn't a faction leader she'd be as dead as Elisande, Kael'thas, Gul'dan, or any of the other powerful spellcasters we've taken out over the years. If we can handle Kil'Jaedan, we can certainly handle Jaina Proudmore.
11/08/2018 09:35 AMPosted by Hahahahahaha
11/08/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Ningjinq
For me at least, defeating Jaina is enough. We clearly will win. We are clearly better than her.

Oh, and Mekkatorque nearly killed.
Jaina's stated goal before the fight is to waste the Horde's time so the Alliance can withdraw after sinking the Zandi fleet and killing their king. She's successful, and leaves once she's wasted enough of everyone's time.

Oh, and Mekkatorque gets upgraded to mechagnome so he can welcome an Allied Race to the Alliance in 8.2


We don’t know exactly how she survives, the point is though, to me at least, is we beat her straight up despite what she did at Lordaeron and the Stockades escape.

It keeps her at a reasonable power level.

Relatedly, she even used her flying ship with Arcane cannons against us. (Fight should look visually awesome)
So jaina being punished by her own people for not letting her father wipe out the orcs is somehow her paying for her crimes, but grom dying to spiritually free the orcs from demon control is him getting off easy?


Because Grom killing a demon is somehow suppose to exonorate his crimes to the Alliance? Jaina, even after being betrayed by the Sunreavers/Horde gave them another shot and they betrayed her. Saying the Alliance has not had to pay for its failures is a bold face lie.

As I recall one of the devs. Interview about Jaina, her journey is also a sort of journey for her people to heal after what happened.
If we go by canonical presentation, I've killed Sylvie twice and Jaina once.

11/06/2018 02:49 PMPosted by Kisin
Another thing that annoyed me about the Stormwind encounter is that the PC was far from alone.

We had an extremely powerful priest in Talanji, a master shadowhunter who has been a hero of the Horde since WC3 in Rokhan, a master arcanist with 10,000+ years of experience in Thalyssra, and a prophet that can see the future down to the second in Zul, all in addition to the PC who is one of the most powerful fighters in the world. Then later Nathanos joins us, a very capable dark ranger.


Discounting the PC, out of that entire lot Rokhan and Zul are the only ones who have only ever done anything noteworthy.
11/08/2018 04:34 PMPosted by Zerde
So jaina being punished by her own people for not letting her father wipe out the orcs is somehow her paying for her crimes, but grom dying to spiritually free the orcs from demon control is him getting off easy?


Because Grom killing a demon is somehow suppose to exonorate his crimes to the Alliance? Jaina, even after being betrayed by the Sunreavers/Horde gave them another shot and they betrayed her. Saying the Alliance has not had to pay for its failures is a bold face lie.

As I recall one of the devs. Interview about Jaina, her journey is also a sort of journey for her people to heal after what happened.

Grom was tricked into thinking the space goats were going to destroy all the orcs. *cough* maghar scenario *cough*
Then drank corrupting demon blood that turned him into a monster he didn't want to be. Only after years of avoiding contact with demons and warlocks did the effect subside, and he STILL felt the bloodlust.

Killing manaroth was to save himself, yes, 100% he did it to free himself from the demons control. In doing so he proved to the rest of the orcs they could be free too. The entire civilization revolves around their ancestors. They draw strength from that. So Grom dying empowered the rest of his race.

Jaina flipped out because a couple of Garrosh loyalists stole a bell and went on a rampage imprisoning BE who LIVED in dalaran and killing anyone who tried to defend their home. They shared dalaran with the alliance. There was a council leading dalaran. And she just barged into the main hall, murdered aethes's magi and iceblocked him before he had a chance to defend himself. It's insane to say that defending your home is worth being executed for. Did the ENTIRE BE race agree to use dalaran to steal the bell? Did all of the sunreavers even want that? Did they even want to work with garrosh? No. They were about to rejoin the alliance.
11/08/2018 02:54 PMPosted by Jellex
11/08/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Saiphas
She is for us, not y’all.


I think some others have touched on this, Saiphas, but this is really where the sore spot is. She's your character, except for the fact that Jaina thrusts herself into the Horde narrative quite a lot, as Threeslot pointed out in the original post. And it's probably in a similar, if different, fashion to how Sylvanas serves as the Alliance's antagonist (even if she isn't quite so in-your-face, which is Nathanos' job).

Horde players grind their teeth about how Jaina's righteous anger and incredible overpoweredness are continually used as a cudgel to belabor them. Alliance players hate how Sylvanas makes their leaders look like fools and skips away from her actions consequence-free. But there are a couple of key differences; Jaina gets more development for Alliance players and is a heroine to her faction, whereas the writers are currently dragging Sylvanas through the mud to drive their chosen story arc. If Horde players loved Sylvanas and hated Jaina, but Alliance players loved Jaina and hated Sylvanas, there would be less of an issue. Instead, Horde players feel ashamed of Sylvanas (or some do, anyway) and are supposed to be sympathetic towards Jaina, whereas the Alliance... loves Jaina and hates Sylvanas.

Then there's the issue of their appearance in playable content. No one ever thought Jaina would even come within hailing distance of being killed when she was announced as an 8.1 raid boss, but there is a real and justifiable fear among Horde players that Sylvanas is destined for loot-pinatahood, ending the arc of what could have been a second great character as a sparkling corpse at the players' feet. I know your personal opinion is that Sylvanas won't be raidbossed, Saiphas, but I believe you can see there is plenty of evidence to justify such a fear.


I think this explains the problems I and many others have with Jaina currently. The way she is being portrayed in faction conflict is incredibly frustrating if you support the Horde, because you are pretty much told that you are wrong to be opposed to her.

Imo, whether or not you can come up with a logical explanation for the Stormwind Extraction scenario being the way it was isn't the biggest issue, either. The biggest issue for me is that it is frustrating to portrayed as both the villain, and as a weakling. With Jaina in that scenario, that is how it came off to me.

There really isn't any character to compare Jaina to that would make sense, either. Sylvanas isn't sold favorably to anyone currently, and you are not portrayed as villainous in opposing her.

I understand that plenty of people like Jaina, and I don't want her killed off or removed from the story. I would just like how she is portrayed to be altered so it is less annoying to have her an an opposing leader.
11/08/2018 04:34 PMPosted by Zerde

Because Grom killing a demon is somehow suppose to exonorate his crimes to the Alliance?


It's pretty hard to punish a dead guy. Jaina is still alive.

Discounting the PC, out of that entire lot Rokhan and Zul are the only ones who have only ever done anything noteworthy.


Talanji later went on to summon a giant dinosaur avatar that can shove a huge ship around. She also went on to generate a massive force field of Light to save Zuldazar citizens during Zul's rebellion and can fire powerful light Kamehamehas as seen in her fight with Ateena.

At any rate, them having not had an opportunity to show what they can do isn't a good argument that they have to be weak. Thalyssra is a fairly new character. There was no good reason that she HAD to be weaker than Jaina in magic. That was a choice to make the Horde heroes feel irrelevant.

And it's not like there wasn't other excuses not to kill her there. They could have easily written it so that we might have been able to take her, but we'd risk being overrun by Alliance forces if we tried.

Instead they made the dialogue clear that the entire elite force of special operatives couldn't stand up to her. That is what annoys me.
11/08/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Kisin
It's pretty hard to punish a dead guy.


Good point. Could we borrow a Valk for a bit?
11/08/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Kelrexia
11/08/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Kisin
It's pretty hard to punish a dead guy.


Good point. Could we borrow a Valk for a bit?

No, you might use it to reanimate Varian.
11/08/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Did the ENTIRE BE race agree to use dalaran to steal the bell?
Did she kill the ENTIRE BE race?

11/08/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Did all of the sunreavers even want that? Did they even want to work with garrosh? No.
Their leader knew what was happening and did nothing anyways. Aethas' reasoning was "who will punish us more severely, Jaina or Garrosh? Obviously Garrosh, so I'll gamble on Jaina being nice to us"
11/08/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Kelrexia
If we go by canonical presentation, I've killed Sylvie twice and Jaina once.
Are you counting when you were Arthas in WC3 and killed Sylv?
I do think with Jaina we need to see the manner in which the fight ends to see how badly the Horde champions beat her.

If she’s all but dead that should put a cap on her power.
Relatedly, I imagine this is the last time in BfA we face off against other current faction leaders unless there’s a Tyrande confrontation somewhere. (And Alliance fights the Horde).

For the Horde, who would we fight next? Anduin? Genn? I mean we likely just beat their 2nd most powerful leader behind only Tyrande now. Technically I guess Velen could be more powerful but I doubt he gets involved.

Alliance has some options but it would have to be balanced with the Horde fighting Alliance characters like in Dazar’alor.
11/08/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Did the ENTIRE BE race agree to use dalaran to steal the bell?
Did she kill the ENTIRE BE race?


Jaina's quite fond of Blood Elves, actually. A patch later she is leading the Kirin Tor Offensive, which is choke full of Blood Elves. So saying she attacked 'the entire BE race' is an absolute non-sequitur.
<span class="truncated">...</span>Did she kill the ENTIRE BE race?


Jaina's quite fond of Blood Elves, actually. A patch later she is leading the Kirin Tor Offensive, which is choke full of Blood Elves. So saying she attacked 'the entire BE race' is an absolute non-sequitur.


What you did there, I see it :-P
11/06/2018 10:22 PMPosted by Aelliciah
Theramore Scenario:
Jaina is surrounded by Kalec and Rhonin, two other extremely powerful magi that aid her. Don't spread BS where it isn't meritted.

Purge of Dalaran:
Jaina is accompanied by two water elementals and will not engage you if she is busy with other NPCs. She does not one-shot you but certainly will kill you alone.

BFA Introduction.:
You are invading Alliance territory and only accompanied with only a handful of people. Jaina is raid material and her AOE ability is meant to slow you down and have the massed armies slaughter you.

8.1 Raid:
No, its not 50%. She will be lowered to fatal health and is forced to retreat. You destroy her forces, nearly take her life, and force the Alliance out of Dazar'alor.

Jaina hasn't done anything remotely like the Horde has done. Invading multiple cities unscathed. (Darnassus, Stormwind, Theramore). Destroyed two of those cities with ease. And still stand strong even when pitted against impossible odds. The Horde are not to be made losers; but make clear mockeries of the Alliance leadership despite all their power.


How dare you bring logic into this

We can't riot and whine over nonsense when you bring up these points
11/08/2018 09:50 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
11/08/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Kelrexia
If we go by canonical presentation, I've killed Sylvie twice and Jaina once.
Are you counting when you were Arthas in WC3 and killed Sylv?


Three times, then.

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