8.1 feral talents - Arena

Druid
So assuming the 8.1 changes go through, for the 15-tier, do we go with Moonfire or Sabertooth for arena? I'm assuming Sabertooth, but maybe I'm undervaluing ranged combo point gen?

What about the 75- and 90- tier? I'm guessing Incarnation and Brutal Slash?

What are your thoughts?

Link to tentative 8.1 talents:
https://ptr.wowhead.com/talent-calc/druid/feral
11/07/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Sanctus
So assuming the 8.1 changes go through, for the 15-tier, do we go with Moonfire or Sabertooth for arena? I'm assuming Sabertooth, but maybe I'm undervaluing ranged combo point gen?

What about the 75- and 90- tier? I'm guessing Incarnation and Brutal Slash?

What are your thoughts?

Link to tentative 8.1 talents:
https://ptr.wowhead.com/talent-calc/druid/feral


can't afford to do anything other than incarnation in arena, that's our burst window and lets us resealth into the little cc we already have. Sabertooth is probably going to be a better pick so you dont have to worry about reapplying a snap shotted rip on the target, moonfire already did little dmg and was just a good way to generate combos points for a distance and save for bloodtalons. Im worried about how im going to generate combo points without moonfire, which is going to force us into close range and kiting will be a worser experience. It was a horrible decision to put those 2 competitively on the same bar in the state feral is already in and as for the talent row that is dedicated to aoe... its been a long time since feral needed some attention aoe wise.. clearly the role is going to have more impact in pve than anything, but I just feel like an entire row of talents dedicated towards aoe was not what we need as feral. Should've been survivability or more buff to ST damage, this is coming from a pvp aspect of course. Fixing their aoe is just a matter of increasing thrash's numbers and lower swipes energy cost or vice versa.
The AoE talent tier is weird for sure. The AoE Rip might be a go-to situation choice versus the other two options in the corner cases where you can throw rip up on two targets to apply spread pressure.

The 15-tier feels really bad because I've noticed I'm super dependent on ranged combo point generation, but Saberooth is obviously how you're able to apply a steady stream of pressure, so it's an obnoxious choice. It might end up making Balance affinity a more valid choice?

My understanding is that Blizz is looking at Bloodtalons and the rest of that tier, so hopefully whatever change they make there could help with our survivability in the absence of Resto/Guard Affinity or the lack of range in the absence of moonfire
Agreed. I don't think I can bear to lose LI. It's too risky being in melee range of anything for cp generation. Wondering if the survivability buffs to talents may offset that though.
11/07/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Xvalentina
can't afford to do anything other than incarnation in arena

Soul of the forest is very good as well, so that's not correct. I doubt savage roar will be worth taking though.

Brutal slash is already stronger than using shred, and it is getting buffed again in 8.1 so it is likely going to be the best pick on that row.

Losing moonfire is actually fairly huge. It is usually my 3rd or 4th top damage source and is amazing for getting combo points and not using up bloodtalon stacks.

On the other hand, sabertooth got a nerf with how it refreshes rip (no more 1 point bite to refresh to max) and makes it harder to always keep up two rips. It also makes it much harder to effectively use bloodtalons.

I'm not sure which one will be better (or perhaps sabertooth+moment of clarity). I just dislike how the play style will probably feel without moonfire.
11/07/2018 01:53 PMPosted by Wes
11/07/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Xvalentina
can't afford to do anything other than incarnation in arena

Soul of the forest is very good as well, so that's not correct. I doubt savage roar will be worth taking though.

Brutal slash is already stronger than using shred, and it is getting buffed again in 8.1 so it is likely going to be the best pick on that row.

Losing moonfire is actually fairly huge. It is usually my 3rd or 4th top damage source and is amazing for getting combo points and not using up bloodtalon stacks.

On the other hand, sabertooth got a nerf with how it refreshes rip (no more 1 point bite to refresh to max) and makes it harder to always keep up two rips. It also makes it much harder to effectively use bloodtalons.

I'm not sure which one will be better (or perhaps sabertooth+moment of clarity). I just dislike how the play style will probably feel without moonfire.


Ya taking away moonfire from the kit and forcing a chose of talent i feel is going to heavily ruin things for me. It was such a fluid way to generate and keep active on a target.
11/07/2018 01:25 PMPosted by Sanctus
The AoE talent tier is weird for sure. The AoE Rip might be a go-to situation choice versus the other two options in the corner cases where you can throw rip up on two targets to apply spread pressure.

The 15-tier feels really bad because I've noticed I'm super dependent on ranged combo point generation, but Saberooth is obviously how you're able to apply a steady stream of pressure, so it's an obnoxious choice. It might end up making Balance affinity a more valid choice?

My understanding is that Blizz is looking at Bloodtalons and the rest of that tier, so hopefully whatever change they make there could help with our survivability in the absence of Resto/Guard Affinity or the lack of range in the absence of moonfire


Am I crazy for thinking that AOE rip would really play well into a rot comp like unholy DK + feral or affliction + feral?
That's where my head is at too, I think it would be an efficient way to throw up dot pressure and keep it up too. Feral/UH seems pretty good after the Unholy buffs go through in 8.1
Yeah I just looked again at the unholy buffs - they're all AOE rot. I am calling it now: Feral + unholy is going to destroy.
11/08/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Ulfednar
Yeah I just looked again at the unholy buffs - they're all AOE rot. I am calling it now: Feral + unholy is going to destroy.


Maybe, but probably not because of that talent. I think our rot pressure is higher right now being able to keep up two fully buffed rips (TF+Bloodtalons) on two targets.

That talent has a 12 second duration @ max points. I think brutal slash will be better.
Is Feral Frenzy ever going to be a worthwhile pick?
11/08/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Ulfednar
Is Feral Frenzy ever going to be a worthwhile pick?

I don't think so, it's competing with two really strong talents, and I just don't think it's really worth it right now.
11/08/2018 12:10 PMPosted by Wes
11/08/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Ulfednar
Yeah I just looked again at the unholy buffs - they're all AOE rot. I am calling it now: Feral + unholy is going to destroy.


Maybe, but probably not because of that talent. I think our rot pressure is higher right now being able to keep up two fully buffed rips (TF+Bloodtalons) on two targets.

That talent has a 12 second duration @ max points. I think brutal slash will be better.


I totally forgot about the 12 second duration, I thought it was just an on combo point parity rip.
Either way, I think on paper DK Feral still sounds pretty good
11/08/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Sanctus
11/08/2018 12:10 PMPosted by Wes
...

Maybe, but probably not because of that talent. I think our rot pressure is higher right now being able to keep up two fully buffed rips (TF+Bloodtalons) on two targets.

That talent has a 12 second duration @ max points. I think brutal slash will be better.


I totally forgot about the 12 second duration, I thought it was just an on combo point parity rip.
Either way, I think on paper DK Feral still sounds pretty good


And that 12 seconds aren't going to tick any harder than a normal rip right?
In other words, if a 24 second rip does x damage over its duration, this 12 second rip won't also do X but in fewer ticks? That would likely be OP but it's nice to dream...
11/08/2018 01:52 PMPosted by Sanctus
11/08/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Ulfednar
Is Feral Frenzy ever going to be a worthwhile pick?

I don't think so, it's competing with two really strong talents, and I just don't think it's really worth it right now.


Is that for both PvE and PvP? I know that the other two talents are pretty worthwhile in both, but neither feel "exciting" to me. They're utility, that's all.
Rip got changed to work like rupture, so a half duration rip is going to do half as much damage, and we won't really have the time to refresh more than one of those bleeds.

Feral Frenzy is probably more viable in PVP than it is in PVE cause worst case scenario you can use it to toss up a quick rip/bite/maim with decent damage attached to it. It might be worth playing around with, but I think the other two talents are still probably better on average even though they're kinda boring by comparison
Wait, I'm confused. I thought rip is now the same damage but the combo points merely change the duration?
11/08/2018 11:36 PMPosted by Leadbelly
Wait, I'm confused. I thought rip is now the same damage but the combo points merely change the duration?

Yeah a 1 combo point rip will deal the same damage per tick as a 5 combo point one.
Yeah I meant less overall damage, the damage per tick will be the same in 8.1, I should have clarified
Personally I've been looking at going with:

Normal

-Lunar Inspiration
-Wild Charge
-Resto Affinity
-Mighty Bash
-Incarnation
-Primal Wrath
-Bloodtalons

PvP

-Medallion
-Cyclone
-Leader of the Pack
-KoTJ/Thorns/Savage Momentum, based on situation.

Sabertooth is not worth losing Moonfire in cat imo. This build seems like it will be a good survival type build, especially if you use the new KoTJ pvp talent.

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