Please bring back 10 man raiding

General Discussion
There's no point in there being only 20 man in the name of balance if you want to bring 5+ rogues for fights like M Zul and 4 warlocks / all execute classes for fights like G'huun.

Enough of this side show experiment, 10 man was more popular and should be the premiere mythic size.
10 man had A LOT of issues, hence why it was removed. They've done it, they know it doesn't work, I'd rather have them not waste time remaking a mistake.
I loved 10 man raiding back in Wraith, it was great fun. Sure there was some balancing issues but it wasn't anything that couldn't have been ironed out. A return to 10 and 20 man raid sizes would be a huge improvement for me. If they can correctly flex scale normal and heroic content there is zero reason whey they can't do it for 2 different raid sizes.
11/09/2018 04:40 AMPosted by Sykora
10 man had A LOT of issues, hence why it was removed. They've done it, they know it doesn't work, I'd rather have them not waste time remaking a mistake.


Who's paying you to spread nonsense, 10 man was nonironically not an issue besides it making 25 man people feel bad when they had equal rewards, which isn't even an issue since titanforging does that a million times over and 10x harder anyways.

So what exactly is the issue when I've already correctly pointed out that the balancing dilemma wasn't solved with the removal of the more popular raid size? Why can't we have hard 10 man content again?
10 man raiding almost killed guilds when it was introduced. Here is a more detailed explanation.

https://youtu.be/l0ygAfTYKXk?t=122
11/09/2018 04:48 AMPosted by Crowlay
10 man raiding almost killed guilds when it was introduced. Here is a more detailed explanation.


LOL! No it was the change from 40 man max size to 25 man that hurt the large raiding guilds. People didn't need to put up with the bull !@#$ of 40 man guilds just to raid. Having smaller content was great for smaller guilds. Back then my main was in such a guild, before Wraith we would often find a sister guild to raid with but it always came with issues. When wraith but the raid size it was a huge bonuses for us. Our core raiders could focus upon defeating the 10 man content and doing the achievements while and we could help the less dedicated raiders in the guild defeat the 25 man content and even invite some friends.
11/09/2018 04:48 AMPosted by Crowlay
10 man raiding almost killed guilds when it was introduced. Here is a more detailed explanation.

https://youtu.be/l0ygAfTYKXk?t=122


Wow weird it's like the player base likes doing things in smaller groups and there was a reason it was the more popular raid mode. Your video btw talks about the feeling of gear being invalidated by one difficulty being imbalanced btw which is an argument you can LITERALLY throw out the window because of titanforging so what's the problem?

No one is advocating for the removal of 20 man btw, just like no one bothered advocating for the removal of 25 because it's stupid to remove options. What many such as myself want, is the return of 10 man raiding because the PREMISE in which it was REMOVED was FALSE. There has not been better balancing, the fights haven't been tailored to bringing a wide assortment of classes, and quite frankly, it's not as fun (to me). So why oh why can we not have 10 man, can I get actually good reasons or are we going to parrot the same nonsense that's been spouted since it's removal
10 man struggled. There was little margin of error. Where as 25 man was much much more forgiving. It was also annoying having to run guild raids 4 days a week.
11/09/2018 04:48 AMPosted by Crowlay
10 man raiding almost killed guilds when it was introduced. Here is a more detailed explanation.

https://youtu.be/l0ygAfTYKXk?t=122


ROFL I have heard nothing about 10 man raiding killing guilds. It was more of the FORCED 20 man raids that killed them.

Please stop spreading utter nonsense.
Balancing 10 and 25 was a constant struggle for blizzard. After 3 expansions, they decided enough is enough, it simply cannot be balanced. There will only be one hardest difficulty, as it should be.
11/09/2018 04:48 AMPosted by Crowlay
10 man raiding almost killed guilds when it was introduced. Here is a more detailed explanation.

https://youtu.be/l0ygAfTYKXk?t=122


True, but guilds are dead now anyway so maybe it’s time to revisit the idea.
11/09/2018 05:11 AMPosted by Lagspike
Balancing 10 and 25 was a constant struggle for blizzard. After 3 expansions, they decided enough is enough, it simply cannot be balanced.


And yet someone how they managed to balance flex raiding?!? So 10 and 25 was too hard but having raids vary from 10 - 40 is magically possible? Interesting logic...
You can still have a 10 man raid, just not in mythic.
11/09/2018 05:11 AMPosted by Lagspike
Balancing 10 and 25 was a constant struggle for blizzard. After 3 expansions, they decided enough is enough, it simply cannot be balanced. There will only be one hardest difficulty, as it should be.


Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that 20 man was perfectly balanced. That's really odd how I already threw this point out the window in the OP but I guess you wouldn't know about that since you don't mythic raid and you're just a bird brained parrot.

If we kept removing everything that was hard to balance we'd all be left with basic attack, heal and taunt. On second thought, apply to be a dev, you seem to be of their mindset and would fit right in but for a good portion of us we think that they can do better.
11/09/2018 04:55 AMPosted by Caelin
LOL! No it was the change from 40 man max size to 25 man that hurt the large raiding guilds. People didn't need to put up with the bull !@#$ of 40 man guilds just to raid.
And those exact same factors were not at play going from 25 to 10?
11/09/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Bearheart
Your video btw talks about the feeling of gear being invalidated by one difficulty being imbalanced btw which is an argument you can LITERALLY throw out the window because of titanforging so what's the problem?
The problem is titanforging doesn't affect the base ilvl of the gear. So which tier gets higher base gear? Screw the 10 man groups by giving 25 man better gear? Screw the 25 man groups by giving 10 man better gear? Make them even so that no one has a reason to run 25 when they can get the same thing with less effort?

You also fail to address how a raid boss would be balanced to have the same difficulty level for 10 and 25 people. There is simply no way to do that since class stacking can have a serious impact on a group's strength. For example...
11/09/2018 04:17 AMPosted by Bearheart
if you want to bring 5+ rogues for fights like M Zul and 4 warlocks / all execute classes for fights like G'huun.
There is simply no way to make these fights balanced on mythic difficulty for variable raid sizes. If you have some specific code prepared and tested I'm sure the devs would be more than happy to take a look.

But the good news is that flex raiding allows you to run a raid of any size from 10 to 30 on any difficulty but mythic. The current system is fine for people who want to play the game straight.
I doubt anything will change. This "side show experiment" has been going strong for about two expansions now with very little tweaks and doesnt seem to be getting altered anytime soon. In the past they kept changing the way it worked almost per expansion so good luck with getting them to change it.
The problem is titanforging doesn't affect the base ilvl of the gear. So which tier gets higher base gear? Screw the 10 man groups by giving 25 man better gear? Screw the 25 man groups by giving 10 man better gear? Make them even so that no one has a reason to run 25 when they can get the same thing with less effort?

You also fail to address how a raid boss would be balanced to have the same difficulty level for 10 and 25 people. There is simply no way to do that since class stacking can have a serious impact on a group's strength. For example...


You forgot that 25 man used to have excessively higher chance to warforge. Do you really think 10 man supporters would care to have a lower chance at warforging if they got their preferred raid size back? Do you honestly think raiding is about gear at all when titanforging and M+ have thrown that out the window?

Why don't you actually look at my armory and tell me how much mythic gear I'm wearing from the raid, keep in mind I'm 7/8 M and shaman is complete garbage on fetid devourer and I bring my alt rogue in on zul because it's actually insane not to.

Your gear argument is completely awful.

11/09/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Crowlay
There is simply no way to make these fights balanced on mythic difficulty for variable raid sizes. If you have some specific code prepared and tested I'm sure the devs would be more than happy to take a look.

But the good news is that flex raiding allows you to run a raid of any size from 10 to 30 on any difficulty but mythic. The current system is fine for people who want to play the game straight.


Yeah dude hire me, I'll tweak the numbers myself. Btw, mythic is the only content that lasts more than a week, hence the reason why people want the 10 man HARD mode that they used to enjoy for YEARS
11/09/2018 05:14 AMPosted by Caelin
11/09/2018 05:11 AMPosted by Lagspike
Balancing 10 and 25 was a constant struggle for blizzard. After 3 expansions, they decided enough is enough, it simply cannot be balanced.


And yet someone how they managed to balance flex raiding?!? So 10 and 25 was too hard but having raids vary from 10 - 40 is magically possible? Interesting logic...


Normal and heroic flex raiding is balanced becuase it's not the hardest content in the game. It's child's play when it comes to mythic.

The hardest content in the game should be a uniform experience for all.
Would rather we just have one or two 10 man dungeons again.
11/09/2018 04:45 AMPosted by Caelin
I loved 10 man raiding back in Wraith, it was great fun. Sure there was some balancing issues but it wasn't anything that couldn't have been ironed out. A return to 10 and 20 man raid sizes would be a huge improvement for me. If they can correctly flex scale normal and heroic content there is zero reason whey they can't do it for 2 different raid sizes.


Wraith of the Lich King

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