Suggestion - Reply to Ion - Level Squish

General Discussion
I saw a post not too long ago linking to Ion discussing serious consideration of a level squish should it be done correctly. Reading through the thread I saw several good points, mainly in that level squishing would be pointless if the time it took to reach max level remained the same. Though I am not entirely sure why I took a good deal of interest in the idea and after much debate I thought I'd ignore my worries and share it rather than continuously ponder.

Upfront I would like to add the disclaimer that I am no balance expert nor do I speak for / represent the entire community. At it's core this is an example formula and by no means is exempt from tweaks and changes.

***Concept***:
The idea really starts at questioning the significance of a level number. On the one hand I can see where a number as high as 120 itself gives and projects power. On the other hand a number that high presents itself as quite the mountain for new players.

After bouncing a few ideas around in my head I started to like the idea of trade professions except in wow it's your class. In a trade you take interest in it -> dabble -> seek training/education -> work with knowledge persons -> become the knowledge -> master it. Though a master isn't always an expert. As the world develops, research and tech develops if you don't keep honing yourself things move past you, yet you still have your exp and mastery of that time and should you decide to catch up it's not so far a jump.

To me this best translated to hard capping all leveling, now and future expansions to 60 - and thereafter is continued development and expertise. For example, if you played through BC in this system it would have been at level 60 + an expertise gained in BC. If you played classic at 60, skipped BC, and picked up WotLK then upon logging in you were still a Master of your class at 60 - but you had to catch up on your expertise. Essentially, it's catch up in leveling. Just like in tradecraft development tends to also speed up education/training processes of the past.

***Application***:
Modify the level requirements of the current 7 tiers to-5/10/20/30/40/50/60
The mold being:
1-5 Entry Level
5-9 Initiate
10-19 Novice
20-49 Apprentice
50-59 Professional
60 Master
Beyond is ever expanding expertise in your class.

The thought I have behind this I'd compare to the WotLK talent tree where you had 51 points to dump into your main tree to reach the best talent but also 20 points to use within the tree and/or spread to the other two. In your time combating the issues faced in an expansion you further hone your main spec but pick up attributes from the others.

***Slots of the xpac trees***:
(All xpac trees through legion are auto completed but moving forward I think that maybe with each passing week of a new xpac unlocks 1.5 tiers of last xpac and all xpac older than the last are auto completed at 60)

Xpac Tiers would be something like:

**First** - advancement of current main spec as furthering expertise and doesn't offer a choice rather it's just a new skill, proc, or passive.

.5A) 1% increase to main stat (not written in chart to save space)

**Second** - choice of main spec passive or dip into other talent trees; tiered progression rules in other trees apply. Main spec Passive would be based on expansion where BC is tier 1, WotLK is tier 1-2, Cata is 1-3, etc.

.5B) 1% increase to choice of secondary. (not written in chart to save space)

***Third*** - skill or buff related to expansion.

An ***example*** for current BFA (built with a main spec focus not all variants):

***Shaman - Main enhancement***.
15-100 talents are changed to the above 5/10/20/30/40/50/60 model.

***BC*** -

1. New skill - Fire and ice - (base 8 second cool down) combines and replaces Flametongue and Frostbrand, deals 100% of Flametongues damage and 15% of Frostbrands damage while also applying 100% of both weapon perks.

2. Tier 1 talent in any of the trees, if main spec then you'd have two selections here, for example enhancement could have lightning shield and hot hand or take a tier 1 talent in elemental or restoration.

3. Passive - Fool Me once - select one skill with a cooldown of 2 minutes or less and apply an extra charge to it.

***WotLK*** -

1. New Proc - Rockbiter has a 50% chance to refresh flametongue and frostband buffs on your weapons.

2. Additional talent - main spec limited to tier 2 - off spec follows progression. If you took lighting shield and hot hand for level 5 talent and BC expertise here you could take boulderfist or either of the other two remaining tier two talents in the level 10 slot or start at tier one of elemental or resto. If you took a level 5 talent in elemental or restoration. now you could take a level 10 talent there

3. Vaccinated - Automatically removes any loss of control effect. Can only occur once every 3 mins.

***Cata*** -

1. New Passive - Fire and Ice (BC expertise) now triggers totem mastery if skilled. If not skilled Fire and Ice triggers 1 of the 4 totems at random; cannot have more than one active at a time.

2. Additional Talent - same pattern as before, cannot exceed tier 3.

3. Skill - Fire and Brimstone - increases haste by 5% for 15 seconds, does not stack with other abilities that increase haste. Additionally, halves all current cooldowns for a maximum of up to two mins (excluding racials). Example if you cast both Earth elemental (EE) and Feral spirit (FS) then cast Fire and Brimstone, the five minute CD on EE would be taken to three minutes and the CD on FS would be 45 seconds.

***MoP*** -

1. New Skill/Proc - Lightning Rod Totem (LRT) - 8 sec CD - Summons a totem lasting 4 seconds that tethers all enemies in 10 yards dealing 1,000 physical damage on impact and increases all lightning damage taken by 2% while tethered. Tethered enemies cannot exceed 10 yards from totem - All lightning damage has ~20% chance to summon LRT regardless of CD. Only one LRT can be active at a time.

2. Additional Talent - same pattern as before, cannot exceed tier 4.

3. Meditation - Skill - restore and/or generate 100% of resources instantly. (5 min CD in pve - 10 min CD in PvP)

***WoD*** -

1. Skill Upgrade - Feral Spirit now Summons an alpha wolf in addition to two spirit wolves. The alpha wolf does not attack but instead howls instantly generating 50 malestrom for you and increases the raids attack power by (x) for 10 seconds.

2. Additional Talent - same pattern as before, cannot exceed tier 5.

3. Rewind - 30 minute CD - reduces satiated to three minutes and applies time rift. Time rift lasts for 10 mins and reduces gains from bloodlust/hero to 5%. Rewind cannot be cast and is instantly triggered 12 seconds after bloodlust/hero is cast.

***LG*** -

1. (All classes get artifact weapon active ability??)

2. Additional Talent - same pattern as before, cannot exceed tier 6.

3. (All classes can choose one legendary effect from legion??)

***BFA*** -

1. Passive - when crash lightning hits two or more enemies it now also enhances weapons of friendly players within 10 yards. For every friendly player imbued add 100 damage to your initial buff as well as 2% added damage on stormstrike, Maximum of 250 additional nature damage and 5% buff.

2. Additional Talent - same pattern as before.

3. Lion Heart - 10% chance on hit to add +20 to each stat on your necklace stacking up to 5 times, stacks last 7 seconds.

TLDR:

My proposal here makes 60 the measurement of a "master" in the class. The expansion trees proposed are meant to be thought of like continued education. I guess you could say 60 is your PhD and every expansion thereafter is continued knowledge building and expertise. A doctor continues education to keep practicing but what a doctor did as continued education 10 years ago is likely standard curriculum now which I translated into wow as auto unlock of past expansion trees upon hitting 60.

1-60 is exp alone and used for talents. Item level can be the stats projection and if that stay as is currently then nothing is taken from current 120 characters. Your 120 goes to 60, your stats remain as they are right now in bfa and you get shiny new skills. A new player can get straight to bfa or any new expansion upon hitting 60. Then solo old content later if this could be implemented
You want general forum! This will not been seen by much of anyone here!
oh my apologies and thanks for letting me know.
And here we are, in General Discussion! The moderators here are just the bees' knees.
I'm a bit attached to my level history.

"I remember when I was level 80" "back in my day...etc etc."
The levels are historic memories for me; specifically the max level end game history. I remember hitting max lvl 80, 85 and so on. Great memories attached to those moments and expacs etc. The level sums up the time/age similar to a 'date' or your birthday.

I feel like they SHOULD stop level increases going forward tho; and do something like your idea. It's just the roll back that's not like dps numbers; they have historical memories attached.

Also if not 'freezing' levels, maybe at least do what Cata did: only 5 levels rather than the standard 10 we've gotten lately. I don't get why we need 10 levels every expac; unnecessary inflation imo.
I'm a bit attached to my level history.

"I remember when I was level 80" "back in my day...etc etc."
The levels are historic memories for me; specifically the max level end game history. I remember hitting max lvl 80, 85 and so on. Great memories attached to those moments and expacs etc. The level sums up the time/age similar to a 'date' or your birthday....


I can certainly respect this point of view; however, I think i'd argue that the memories are attached to the moments more so than the number. I would argue that the correlation to age actually strengthens my argument in that age isn't always immediately apparent on first glance. Sure larger gaps between two persons are easier to tell but I think the title system and gear sets would also been indicative of ones age/wisdom here. Personally I am very fond of the WotLK skill tree and often reminisce of it but, to me, the memory of events which transpired in that xpac I see as moments in history whereas my level number or age is irrelevant. Telling someone of the battle against Arthas and his army is thrilling nostalgia - telling it as a level 80 from the old system or as a 60 from the proposed system makes little difference to the conversation IMO.
11/10/2018 04:51 AMPosted by Psylintt
I'm a bit attached to my level history.

"I remember when I was level 80" "back in my day...etc etc."
The levels are historic memories for me; specifically the max level end game history. I remember hitting max lvl 80, 85 and so on. Great memories attached to those moments and expacs etc. The level sums up the time/age similar to a 'date' or your birthday....


I can certainly respect this point of view; however, I think i'd argue that the memories are attached to the moments more so than the number. I would argue that the correlation to age actually strengthens my argument in that age isn't always immediately apparent on first glance. Sure larger gaps between two persons are easier to tell but I think the title system and gear sets would also been indicative of ones age/wisdom here. Personally I am very fond of the WotLK skill tree and often reminisce of it but, to me, the memory of events which transpired in that xpac I see as moments in history whereas my level number or age is irrelevant. Telling someone of the battle against Arthas and his army is thrilling nostalgia - telling it as a level 80 from the old system or as a 60 from the proposed system makes little difference to the conversation IMO.


Speak for yourself (you certainly have that right). But you do not have the right to speak for anyone else, and you cannot possibly know what the existing level system means to say, me. You may not believe that those numbers have much significance. I believe differently.

LEVEL SQUISH BAD.

P.S. They can pry my levels from my cold, dead gnomish hands.
11/10/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Eyrinjia
P.S. They can pry my levels from my cold, dead gnomish hands.

Okay, and they probably will lol. Just like the people who said no to the stat squish.
Scanning through this I get the impression that you want people to be locked at different levels until they have mastered teaching themselves to do something they have no clue about. Without any help but a few cryptic tooltips.

So much for new players.

11/10/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Aeileta
11/10/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Eyrinjia
P.S. They can pry my levels from my cold, dead gnomish hands.

Okay, and they probably will lol. Just like the people who said no to the stat squish.

I see you think there are too many players in the game currently, and you want that number greatly reduced.

Yeah, Ion's going to hammer through this next phase of Wildstarification of wow.

Speak for yourself (you certainly have that right). But you do not have the right to speak for anyone else, and you cannot possibly know what the existing level system means to say, me. You may not believe that those numbers have much significance. I believe differently.


I don't wish to speak for everyone and Im sorry if that's what you perceived. Im only offering a couple of ideas I had come up. Sure it's not perfect and nothing will please everyone. However, at the very least hopefully it can bring about discussion that gets us to a good system.
11/10/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Spellchaser
Scanning through this I get the impression that you want people to be locked at different levels until they have mastered teaching themselves to do something they have no clue about. Without any help but a few cryptic tooltips.

So much for new players.

[/quote]

It's a bit of a ramble and not well structured and for that I apologize. However simply put a little yes and no haha.

Rather than increasing level every xpac exp leveling is hard capped at 60. Once you hit 60 the game opens up to every xpac. Lets say this was the system and you're a new player in MoP. You level to 60 and want to jump in with friends that have played from start. With the proposal above you can do that upon dinging 60. At hitting 60, your BC tree is auto completely unlocked and the WotLK completes rather easily (possibly over time - not sure but I do think the last xpac should immediately complete but shouldn't be difficult or tied to old content either - looking at rep farm for allied races >.>)

BFA would be hit 60 - jump into zul / kul and your legion tree mimics WotLK instance above.

For gear and such (since exp lvl - 60 and ilvl stats and power progression) are separate to keep numbers the same) I thought of the current scaling system but last night thought the heirloom system could be amazing here. Scales to match greens (like boost token) at start of ever xpac but drops exp bonus - alt could just have a quest to basic gear all new xpacs too.

Anyways all suggestions and not perfect by far. Hopefully ideas to work with though.
11/10/2018 04:51 AMPosted by Psylintt
I'm a bit attached to my level history.

"I remember when I was level 80" "back in my day...etc etc."
The levels are historic memories for me; specifically the max level end game history. I remember hitting max lvl 80, 85 and so on. Great memories attached to those moments and expacs etc. The level sums up the time/age similar to a 'date' or your birthday....


I can certainly respect this point of view; however, I think i'd argue that the memories are attached to the moments more so than the number. I would argue that the correlation to age actually strengthens my argument in that age isn't always immediately apparent on first glance. Sure larger gaps between two persons are easier to tell but I think the title system and gear sets would also been indicative of ones age/wisdom here. Personally I am very fond of the WotLK skill tree and often reminisce of it but, to me, the memory of events which transpired in that xpac I see as moments in history whereas my level number or age is irrelevant. Telling someone of the battle against Arthas and his army is thrilling nostalgia - telling it as a level 80 from the old system or as a 60 from the proposed system makes little difference to the conversation IMO.


Let me put it another way, I earned level 120 over many years and I don't want it 'rolled back' It's not the same as a 'dps' squish or 'ilvl' squish. It's rolling back a milestone and perception of character progression.

It's my opinon and I stick to it.

capping leveling or slowing it down going forward I can get behind.
11/10/2018 05:58 AMPosted by Psylintt
11/10/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Spellchaser
Scanning through this I get the impression that you want people to be locked at different levels until they have mastered teaching themselves to do something they have no clue about. Without any help but a few cryptic tooltips.

So much for new players.

It's a bit of a ramble and not well structured and for that I apologize. However simply put a little yes and no haha.

Rather than increasing level every xpac exp leveling is hard capped at 60. Once you hit 60 the game opens up to every xpac. Lets say this was the system and you're a new player in MoP. You level to 60 and want to jump in with friends that have played from start. With the proposal above you can do that upon dinging 60. At hitting 60, your BC tree is auto completely unlocked and the WotLK completes rather easily (possibly over time - not sure but I do think the last xpac should immediately complete but shouldn't be difficult or tied to old content either - looking at rep farm for allied races >.>)

BFA would be hit 60 - jump into zul / kul and your legion tree mimics WotLK instance above.

For gear and such (since exp lvl - 60 and ilvl stats and power progression) are separate to keep numbers the same) I thought of the current scaling system but last night thought the heirloom system could be amazing here. Scales to match greens (like boost token) at start of ever xpac but drops exp bonus - alt could just have a quest to basic gear all new xpacs too.

Anyways all suggestions and not perfect by far. Hopefully ideas to work with though.

Having to do attunements to unlock old content sounds counterproductive.
OP<snip>


I recently posted a similar idea and feel this is interesting.

Alternately, the carry dungeon xp changes can be reverted.

All that aside, cap the levels from here on. No more. Double the original level cap is a nice round number.

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