BfA Class design, intentional?

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
I'm not here to "Doomsay" or shout "THE SKY IS FALLING"!.

I am truly wondering if this expansion is designed to bring WoW to an end? Hear me out, Blizzard previously stated they want to get out of the MMO market (when they canceled, Titan). Now, they announce a new direction focusing on the Mobile Gaming market.

How would you end WoW if you were Blizzard while trying to keep as much of your fanbase intact as possible? You find a willing scapegoat, and you bleed subs down as far as they can go without it ever appearing intentional. The fans blame Ion, WoW goes into maintenance mode because Blizzard announces they can't recover financially from the failures and lost monies due to the collapse of WoW during the BfA expansion.

The end result is, Blizzard no longer has to sink a massive amount of it's company resources into a dying, MMO Market while retaining as many fans as possible.

In closing. I find it impossible to believe the class design team is this incompetent. A new company filled 100% with interns could do much better than this.

Something smells rotten in Denmark.
We can conspiracy-theorize all we want. The sad fact is, Blizzard really is this bad these days at

--game design
--class design
--story
--understanding their fan base
--PR and marketing
--damage control

Today they are good at art, animation, music, and sound and that is the sum total.
Honestly, if any of the people I have played with over the years are any indication. They aren't going to keep a loyal fan-base after this. They will become "just another !@#$ gaming company"
WoW will be a cash cow for at least another decade. The prevailing theory seems to be that they're slowly moving toward being console and / or mobile friendly. You keep simplying, which makes the game easier to maintain, and eventually you roll out PS4 / X-Box / Switch versions and rake in even more cash.

Lots of your original fan base will quit, but they were eventually going to quit anyway since they're not investing enough resources to keep old players happy.

At the end of the day Blizzard exists to make money, and there will be plenty of money in WoW long after everyone reading this quits the game.
11/11/2018 08:09 PMPosted by Arkelion
At the end of the day Blizzard exists to make money, and there will be plenty of money in WoW long after everyone reading this quits the game.


I respectfully disagree. WoW requires a lot of company resources to maintain. I don't think WoW is the cash cow, currently that many think it to be. Think of LoL with an estimated 30 million players all buying skins and heroes. WoW as it is currently is probably profitable, but I believe that BfA will bring WoW to the precipice of viability and decisions will need to be made. I could be entirely wrong and we can simply chalk this expansion up to "gross incompetence".
11/11/2018 04:25 PMPosted by Victor
How would you end WoW if you were Blizzard while trying to keep as much of your fanbase intact as possible?

stop making expansions and inform the playerbase that WoW will be on maintenance mode for the foreseeable future, and tell them to look forward to the mobile idle game where we defeat the void lords
Yeah, it's hard to grasp what the hell they're doing tbh. But I think they'd rather do nothing with class design (or revert it if they knew it was the problem) and get more subs than intentionally change it for the worse and lose subs. It's a company after all. They're probably just blaming something else which is sad.

If they really wanted to end wow I really don't think they'd give a damn about the players' reactions. Blizzard seems so apathetic towards their fan base nowadays. In fact, they almost give a hostile feel towards us sometimes, at least from my pov.
11/11/2018 08:09 PMPosted by Arkelion
WoW will be a cash cow for at least another decade. The prevailing theory seems to be that they're slowly moving toward being console and / or mobile friendly. You keep simplying, which makes the game easier to maintain, and eventually you roll out PS4 / X-Box / Switch versions and rake in even more cash.

Lots of your original fan base will quit, but they were eventually going to quit anyway since they're not investing enough resources to keep old players happy.

At the end of the day Blizzard exists to make money, and there will be plenty of money in WoW long after everyone reading this quits the game.

The amusing part of this, is Final Fantasy's classes are far more complete, and their rotations significantly longer than WoWs currents ones. Its on console, so why does the game need to be so ...... Pruned, with weak class design.
$15/mo * 5.5 million? subscribers (a ballpark guess that makes the numbers work nicely) = 83M/mo = 1 billion dollars per year.

Add in 50$ every two years per expansion plus God and Blizzard's CFO alone knows how much in the cash shop, we are talking probably 1.5+ billion dollars a year.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is trying to phase out a commodity who's only overhead is developer salary that is raking in $1.5B/yr.

Are they out of touch? Omg yes. Are they likely bleeding subscribers because of it? Probably, but they are not trying to end WoW. They just have made decisions that show they don't care about their otherwise loyal fans (no two-way communication, lack of listening, etc.). I think their decisions are ego based, not money driven.

I blame Ion IHaveToBuyAnExtraTicketForMyEgoOnThePlane Hazzikostas because every time I have heard him speak he has shown tremendous ego, no real content communication, and a lack of listening.

And he is in charge.
11/12/2018 12:26 AMPosted by Masoschism
$15/mo * 5.5 million? subscribers (a ballpark guess that makes the numbers work nicely) = 83M/mo = 1 billion dollars per year.

Add in 50$ every two years per expansion plus God and Blizzard's CFO alone knows how much in the cash shop, we are talking probably 1.5+ billion dollars a year.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is trying to phase out a commodity who's only overhead is developer salary that is raking in $1.5B/yr.

Are they out of touch? Omg yes. Are they likely bleeding subscribers because of it? Probably, but they are not trying to end WoW. They just have made decisions that show they don't care about their otherwise loyal fans (no two-way communication, lack of listening, etc.). I think their decisions are ego based, not money driven.

I blame Ion IHaveToBuyAnExtraTicketForMyEgoOnThePlane Hazzikostas because every time I have heard him speak he has shown tremendous ego, no real content communication, and a lack of listening.

And he is in charge.

I totally agree with you! WoW's too profitable to just "kill off". I think the game is just facing this because of bad management and lack of communication/listening to the playerbase. And measures wasn't taken yet because the players unhappiness with the game still have not hit where it hurts, Blizzard's pockets. Once it begins, I guess we'll see a huge change of direction.
This is also due to the fact that we lost the artifacts from legion and that supposed to make us feel weaker.
Still, this doesn't excuse the bad design to be so extreme.

Really, losing my artifact I lose my Shadow Word: Death, like I didn't have it before Legion.
Xal must have really screwed the priest's mind and capabilities to be worse than before meeting her.
11/11/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Gumble
Honestly, if any of the people I have played with over the years are any indication. They aren't going to keep a loyal fan-base after this. They will become "just another !@#$ gaming company"

They already have to me.

...I honestly just hang around here to be salty... with a faint hope that maybe crap improves but I'm 99.9% certain nothing will.

...and find others who have started playing GW2 >.>
Well they don't play their own game anymore. It was said that they have all shifted toward playing mobile games.
11/12/2018 12:26 AMPosted by Masoschism
$15/mo * 5.5 million? subscribers (a ballpark guess that makes the numbers work nicely) = 83M/mo = 1 billion dollars per year.

Add in 50$ every two years per expansion plus God and Blizzard's CFO alone knows how much in the cash shop, we are talking probably 1.5+ billion dollars a year.

No one, and I mean NO ONE is trying to phase out a commodity who's only overhead is developer salary that is raking in $1.5B/yr.

Are they out of touch? Omg yes. Are they likely bleeding subscribers because of it? Probably, but they are not trying to end WoW. They just have made decisions that show they don't care about their otherwise loyal fans (no two-way communication, lack of listening, etc.). I think their decisions are ego based, not money driven.

I blame Ion IHaveToBuyAnExtraTicketForMyEgoOnThePlane Hazzikostas because every time I have heard him speak he has shown tremendous ego, no real content communication, and a lack of listening.

And he is in charge.


I believe your premise is correct, but I don't believe it's an ego thing. I think there's an ever shrinking developer budget, and class design is one of the first departments that will get the cut. The intent with the class redesigns in legion was to have a constant base class design to take into following expansions, with the endgame gearing system of that expansion being what fills out the specs. I don't think it's Ion's ego as opposed to Brack or someone in the top brass not allowing more resources for class design. Which means class design is being done as a afterthought.

The thing the devs learned from WoD was to pump out content, no matter what. They also learned, before this expansion, very few people left because of class design. Put the 2 together, and you have a direction for the game that deprioritizes how classes play. Hopefully they learn from this xpac that they should prioritize it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
BfA, definitely feels like it's missing it's "Heart and Soul". It's as if Blizzard no longer has the energy or desire to deal with the massive undertaking that is WoW.
All of this speculation is likely way off base and rather pointless. What is relevant is that you all are unhappy with the state of the game.

The developers are aware that the people posting here are not happy. At the same time, people who are unhappy are way more likely to speak up than those who are not, so you cannot claim to speak for everyone, like so many believe they do.

You are not going to get anywhere calling into question their dedication to doing their best with this game, or asking “is this a joke?” It isn’t. Imagine if someone called your own integrity in your job into question while at the same time asking you for something.

Feedback is only really useful if you identify what feels wrong or bad to you with as much specificity as possible. Complaining about performance, or just declaring that something is “total garbage,” or that Blizz doesn’t play their own game (which is patently untrue) isn’t helpful.

I’ve played this game since 2008. There have *always* been balance issues. Blizzard has made design decisions for classes that made me really unhappy, too. My love for the game though was such that I went with other options rather than quitting. Maybe some day the fun will end for me. We’ll see.

Finally, those of you who claim to have unsubbed and uninstalled, how little respect for your own time do you have that you then come here to complain about a game you allegedly don’t want to play anymore?
For me, I’m unhappy with the state of the game, but not so much that I want to quit; the problem is, without communication from the development team, I don’t feel as if I have any input into the direction of the game, which is extremely frustrating to me. I’m not continuing to pay my sub because I like the direction, but because it hasn’t yet gotten to the point that I want to unsub.

I believe it was during the W3 Reforged presentation that I heard the words: “This is your game, we just made it for you.” And that’s what I’d like to think about WOW, but this expansion from the beta until now has demonstrated the complete opposite.

I think it’s the lack of communication that’s the most disheartening thing, which is weird because Blizzard has been pulling people from the community, and you’d expect more communication from fellow fans, but if anything, it’s just gotten worse.
11/12/2018 07:28 AMPosted by Brujanna
Feedback is only really useful if you identify what feels wrong or bad to you with as much specificity as possible.
I (and many others) have given hundreds of posts of feedback with tremendous specificity including extensive numerical analysis. It is the fact that I have provided numerical analysis numerous times, backed up with tons of data, that has all been ignored that causes me to think such action is a waste of time. They are not listening, or are not listening very well. Why even have alpha/beta testers if they won't listen to them?

Most of my posts regard MM hunter. I have shown 10 ways from Sunday how certain traits, talents, and abilities break the spec. Months before it happened, I predicted exactly what talents and traits would be taken, and how it would play exactly the opposite of intent because of combinations that break the core. I predicted exactly what would be nerfed and how. I gave this feedback NUMEROUS times in excruciating detail on the beta boards. I was ignored. I was also not alone in the specifics of my feedback. It was obvious to anyone capable of numerical analysis.

All of my predictions came true. Every single one. On the PTR, with one glaring exception they largely fixed the rotational problems (and only the rotational problems), but introduced one of the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS with a new trait. This trait coupled with specific talents and abilities break the spec. Instead of simply changing the trait, certain talents must be nerfed because of it. Why they do things this way, I have no idea, but its really f'ing stupid. In fact on the PTR, they already nerfed one of the two talents that I predicted. Its CRAZY!

11/12/2018 07:28 AMPosted by Brujanna
Imagine if someone called your own integrity in your job into question while at the same time asking you for something.


They are not listening, so anything negative I say here will not make one iota of difference.

It temporarily makes me feel better though.

11/12/2018 07:28 AMPosted by Brujanna
I’ve played this game since 2008. There have *always* been balance issues.
This is true.

I do not complain about balance issues; I never have. With the exception of (relatively) rare posts like this thread, I do not complain at all. I give feedback about what is numerically broken, or general feedback about the direction all classes are taking.

I care nothing about where my class sits on the meters (unless its so far below the mean as to be useless). I care only about how it plays, and whether or not the numbers make sense.
11/11/2018 04:25 PMPosted by Victor
I'm not here to "Doomsay" or shout "THE SKY IS FALLING"!.

I am truly wondering if this expansion is designed to bring WoW to an end? Hear me out, Blizzard previously stated they want to get out of the MMO market (when they canceled, Titan). Now, they announce a new direction focusing on the Mobile Gaming market.

How would you end WoW if you were Blizzard while trying to keep as much of your fanbase intact as possible? You find a willing scapegoat, and you bleed subs down as far as they can go without it ever appearing intentional. The fans blame Ion, WoW goes into maintenance mode because Blizzard announces they can't recover financially from the failures and lost monies due to the collapse of WoW during the BfA expansion.

The end result is, Blizzard no longer has to sink a massive amount of it's company resources into a dying, MMO Market while retaining as many fans as possible.

In closing. I find it impossible to believe the class design team is this incompetent. A new company filled 100% with interns could do much better than this.

Something smells rotten in Denmark.


I do not think its intentionally, but how it happens seems the same.

They just no longer care about WoW as much as in the past and they do not have the best devs working on it like a showcase ship.

They moved a lot of them to mobile as they even stated.

The revenue in the mobile market was too tempting so they are selling out their core market for a new one.
11/12/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Latest
They just no longer care about WoW as much as in the past and they do not have the best devs working on it like a showcase ship.

They moved a lot of them to mobile as they even stated.
I have no problem with them stopping class iteration in general. I think constant class change for the sake of change is stupid. But why didn't they stop at MoP, or even WoD class design (many were better in MoP, a few were better in WoD).

Legion was a travesty in class design until the legendary crutch, and yet BfA is in many ways worse. This is not the point to stop.

Go back to glyphs, set bonuses, and classes with depth and situational abilities. Make classes great on their own, don't make them gear dependent. Get there, where we were for most of WoW; then you can stop.

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