Lessons from the Classic demo

General Discussion
World/quest mobs should be able to kill you easily.
If you compare the retail leveling experience to the classic experience, you will find that classic is slower but more engaging. This is because of things like a defias mage ripping off 40% of your hp if he gets a fireball cast off. As many pro streamers discovered on the demo, an angry kodo can stomp you out pretty darn easily. The speed of reaching 120 is fine, but the process of getting there is too easy to be enjoyable. Let's double NPC health and damage but also quadruple exp gain from mob kills.

Also, heirlooms are amazing. I've collected all the ones still in the game. I love the exp buff. HOWEVER, the ilv for heirlooms is too high. Even if you double hp/dmg for world mobs, that will only improve the experience for non-heirloomed players. If you pair powering up mobs with reducing heirloom ilv to a bit above greens, you get a decent sense of dangers in questing/the world again.

This should, on average, decrease the amount of time spent between 1-120 but also increase how engaging it is.

Long levels with gains at each level feel better than short levels with no gains
In classic, dinging was more than a noise. You gained stats, passives, and abilities that often changed your game feel significantly (IE: increasing the duration of slice and dice) and thus you had the feeling that you had moved your character from point A to point B in their progression. Getting plate at level 40 was like evolving a Magikarp.

Right now, there's really only 8 levels in retail.
10/15 (when you choose your spec and first talent. The time between 10 and 15 is so short that it's effectively the same timing)
30
45
60
75
90
100
110 (when you get azerite traits, which progress with ilv rather than level)

These could just as easily be (starting at level 0)
1 pick your spec, then first talent
2
3
4(gain access to outland/northrend)
5(gain access to pandaria/cata)
6(gain access to warlords/legion)
7
8 gain access to azerite traits

It would >feel< better for players, even if the total exp points remained the same, for there to be fewer levels with larger rewards for completing each level.

Kultiras and Zandalar are awesome but, as with all expansions, 98 percent of the world of warcraft's world doesn't matter and we just sit in cities all day and the world >feels< tiny

Scaling of Azeroth should be to max level and world quests related to the warfronts should pop up in adjacent zones. That way, a new player running around in the Wetlands can participate in the BFA story before reaching the new island zones... because it is Battle for Azeroth... right? It would be nice if this expansion had randomly generated stuff happening all over Azeroth. IE: collect silithid venom in Tanaris to help create antivenom shipments for the warfront because those dang undead rogues are poisoning our troops! We need more reasons to leave our cities and venture out into Azeroth zones, interacting with low level players is always a plus for community development.

As we experienced in the demo, walking around makes the world feel expansive and, paired with dangerous mobs, like a place where adventures happen. Flying mounts are obviously here to stay, and many zones now have flying built in as an assumption, but maybe there should be some sort of limit placed on them. For example, if you have zones that are experiencing BFA related things- you could have a debuff called "winds of war" that make it so your flying mount can't fly for an hour after flying for 15 minutes due to smoke inhalation. This would encourage ground mount usage, improving world pvp and making the world >feel< large again.

TLDR: Too many QoL changes have resulted in most of WoW's world being obsolete and the process of leveling being dead boring.
You guys aren't even going to tell me to go frack myself? What is this? :/
11/14/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Nicholasfury
You guys aren't even going to tell me to go frack myself? What is this? :/


Gtfo?
Better?
There's nothing engaging about having to eat after every pull. Especially when half the combat itself is waiting on autoattacks with no player input.

Also your statement of 'just sitting in cities all day' is flat out wrong for BFA, but actually completely true for classic. There's nothing to do in the world once you hit max level in classic, while 90% of your game time is out doing world quests or going to dungeon/raid entrances in BFA.

Only the most casual of casual players (or PvPers) 'sit in cities all day'. I haven't queued for anything but battlegrounds on retail in 2 months and only go to cities to check my auctions.
11/14/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Willis
11/14/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Nicholasfury
You guys aren't even going to tell me to go frack myself? What is this? :/


Gtfo?
Better?

Thank you, Daddy.
Thinking about it, I think Classic running beside retail will be a great thing. If more and more people migrate from retail to Classic, Blizzard may take a long look into what people like about it and try to incorporate into retail. I have no interest in Classic myself, but if it helps retail in the long run than that can only be a good thing.
11/14/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Kenshimoo
There's nothing engaging about having to eat after every pull. Especially when half the combat itself is waiting on autoattacks with no player input.

[/quote]

The combat wouldn't be different, mobs would just hit harder and have enough health that they can actually attack the player.
Good analysis.

11/14/2018 09:25 AMPosted by Howlback
Thinking about it, I think Classic running beside retail will be a great thing. If more and more people migrate from retail to Classic, Blizzard may take a long look into what people like about it and try to incorporate into retail. I have no interest in Classic myself, but if it helps retail in the long run than that can only be a good thing.

I'm not sure I want to level through Vanilla again. That doesn't mean it wasn't good the first time.
I do not like the paradigm of "dangerous" mobs. Because it really just leads to more downtime constantly just so you can have it be dangerous to pull more than one if you're sloppy. And even then, most classes would be fine these days as just about everyone has a CC or three.

If you must follow this, you could have a mechanic called "mobbing" or something, where multiple mobs together would be more dangerous and buff themselves by proximity.

Thus pulling multiples is still a problem, but individually doesn't require you to heal up after a single mob.

Leveling does kind of suck all around at this point. It's the only time I like "talent trees" even if fundamentally 90% of them were useless, it still felt like I was doing something when I leveled. I would be all for a level squish at this point and a complete revamp of the process. I don't really feel we should go back to talent trees, because outside of leveling they've really got nothing going for them. Maybe with a squish talent choices wouldn't be far apart, and maybe we could introduce the ability to pick passives while you level up. Have a pool of XX passives, that you'll ultimately pick all of them, but just get to decide the order.

Or even a structured introduction, like hit level 10 and rage generation +10% passive kicks in or something.

But leveling is incredibly meh, and I do think that leveling and professions need a massive overhaul. And the AH while we're at it. I would be happy with a new expac that did nothing but revamp the leveling process, and added depth to professions and used them to get us into the older world more, with a revamped AH to improve economic aspect of the game. And some more dungeons/raids. That'd be enough for me.
11/14/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Nicholasfury
11/14/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Willis
...

Gtfo?
Better?

Thank you, Daddy.


Anytime my boy.
11/14/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Trilanni
I do not like the paradigm of "dangerous" mobs. Because it really just leads to more downtime constantly just so you can have it be dangerous to pull more than one if you're sloppy.


It depends. I think that ooc regen rates could be higher in open world, similar to the legion class armor set bonus, to offset that.

Having mobs be more mechanically interesting in addition to more health might be another path to engaging leveling. IE: What if mobs acted more like island expedition mobs? Or time lost mobs? You would still need to give them more hp in order to give them time to do anything, like casting a spell, but at least they would start doing things.

IE: What if there was a gnoll shaman who would earthshock, heal, lightning bolt, and earth bind totem you and he was linked to a gnoll warrior that has MS, charge, hamstring, and a stun?
What I learned was that I don't find killing boars and birds exciting anymore.
just the demo was more exciting and engaging then the last 3 expansions for me
current wow is in the trash can for me......i can't go back
11/14/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Kenshimoo
There's nothing engaging about having to eat after every pull. Especially when half the combat itself is waiting on autoattacks with no player input.

I find it more engaging than spamming 2 attacks, waiting for that other attack to light up then hitting it, and watching the mob fall over. The fast combat in retail reminds me of an FPS where you mash 3 different keys as fast as you can, and when your opponent dies you don't even know how.

11/14/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Kenshimoo
There's nothing to do in the world once you hit max level in classic,

In Classic people make their own fun. It will take several months for the playerbase to hit max level. On pvp servers there will be skirmishes in every zone, spontaneous fights that arise, and open world events. As opposed to retail where your path has no ambiguity, you follow the rails of a very linear train and Blizz makes sure you can't steer off it. I find that really sterile.
I'd be fine with rares having deadly abilities but I won't go back to the days of drinking and eating in between pulls. That isn't fun.
11/14/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Snowfox
What I learned was that I don't find killing boars and birds exciting anymore.


you say that but then you go to Boralus and kill some boars for the world quest
All horrible ideas.
11/14/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Lokoma
11/14/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Snowfox
What I learned was that I don't find killing boars and birds exciting anymore.


you say that but then you go to Boralus and kill some boars for the world quest

.. and you think I find that exciting?
Making mobs hit harder doesn't effectively make the game harder. 99.5% or so of quests in Classic weren't at all challenging. Being essentially limited to one or two mobs at a time just slows everything down and is markedly less fun. Increasing mob health specifically is awful. Damage sponge mobs are so, so boring, see 7.3.5 for details.

I don't really get holding up Classic as some sort of haven for gamers that want to be challenged.

Even though Classic was obviously less easy than current leveling it was still designed so that literally anyone could and would make it to max level with solo play just by putting in the time. I doubt Blizzard will ever change that philosophy for WoW. The only time they've ever even really experimented with mobs having actual mechanics was with some of the enemies on the Timeless Isle, which they then abandoned.

I don't really get the clamoring for the Classic game, I love my quality of life improvements. I am glad actual Classic is coming though and I hope people have fun playing it.
I want the sense of exploration back, does anyone know if there is an addon that remove quest markers?

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