M+ Proposal

General Discussion
My proposal is to simply remove keystones, which would solve the IO debate as well.

You go to the pedestal, and can select ONE above the highest + you've completed. This applies to your group as well, no one can skip + levels. Someone that has only cleared a +2 freehold can't run a +4 freehold (unless perhaps they +2'd a +2).

You progress through the tiers organically, and if you start a high keystone group, you know everyone in said group has relevant experience.

This would minimize toxicity, remove the need for IO, and add a sense of progression all while keeping the spirit of M+ intact.

Feel free to tell me this ruins the game and M+, just tell me why. :P

Thanks.
Raider io is fine. If you don't have the raider io score, you don't have the experience therefore I won't invite you, simple as that. And if I wanted to be more indepth I'd search someone on the raider io website to see how they've done pushing keys. There is no toxicity, if you're running my key I'm going to be thorough to avoid wasting time.

Your solution doesn't solve problems it creates them. It'll be harder to form groups when everyone is restricted to a particular + level. You don't build the functionality of content around an addon. If blizz really had a problem with raider io they'd make it restricted like they did with the world quest group finder for bfa.
What happens when you are at a later point in a cycle and no one is doing the lower keys for every single dungeon that you need to get the forced rating to do the higher ones?
10/06/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Oceanfruit
Raider io is fine. If you don't have the raider io score, you don't have the experience therefore I won't invite you, simple as that. And if I wanted to be more indepth I'd search someone on the raider io website to see how they've done pushing keys. There is no toxicity, if you're running my key I'm going to be thorough to avoid wasting time.

Your solution doesn't solve problems it creates them. It'll be harder to form groups when everyone is restricted to a particular + level.


Yet you just said you won't invite someone without experience. How is that any different than someone being restricted to a certain + level?

I'm not anti-IO. I'm somewhat anti-IO being controlled by a 3rd party and not Blizzard.
10/06/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Wildfetus
10/06/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Oceanfruit
Raider io is fine. If you don't have the raider io score, you don't have the experience therefore I won't invite you, simple as that. And if I wanted to be more indepth I'd search someone on the raider io website to see how they've done pushing keys. There is no toxicity, if you're running my key I'm going to be thorough to avoid wasting time.

Your solution doesn't solve problems it creates them. It'll be harder to form groups when everyone is restricted to a particular + level.


Yet you just said you won't invite someone without experience. How is that any different than someone being restricted to a certain + level?

I'm not anti-IO. I'm somewhat anti-IO being controlled by a 3rd party and not Blizzard.


That's not being restricted. Get the experience running lower keys. Don't expect to jump into a 6-8+ key without knowing everything about the instance. Obviously I won't invite someone without experience when it's MY key that I'm pushing. That's not anti anything that's the way the world works. You can't expect handouts and you can't expect me to waste my time on someone who doesn't know fights/mechanics/shortcuts for a timed instance.
This would be really boring - people would only do the same few easiest dungeons. I like how the key is for a random dungeon when you upgrade it.
I have a feeling your main goal here is to remove RaiderIO from the table.

Even in this scenario it won't go away. RaiderIO goes by what you complete, not what key you put into the pedistal.

I do like the idea of having progression, but what do you do later in the expansion when +10 is the new +0? Achievements? Account wide unlock?

I for one would be absolutely livid if I had to go start at +0 on a late expansion alt through EVERY DUNGEON. It's not practical.

About toxicity? It would go up. You're basically putting raid progression into dungeons. It wouldn't work the way you think it would.
10/06/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Akston
What happens when you are at a later point in a cycle and no one is doing the lower keys for every single dungeon that you need to get the forced rating to do the higher ones?


1) The same issue could still exist to an extent with IO currently.

2) People still are running Heroics and Normals. I believe with alts players will still be running +2's and +3's.
This would be a insane slog. There are currently 10 dungeons. If you wanted to unlock +10 for all of them you would have to do 100 successful key runs.

Beyond that there are two reasons this idea doesnt work.

1. It basically assures that most people wont be able to easily play with each other. Good luck if you're a solo player trying to get your keys levelled up late in an expansion. You need to find 150 groups (in the right order!) to make sure all your keys are levelled to 15!

2. People and especally pugs will ignore all but the easiest of dungeons. Why do hard dungeons when you can just get your +10 on the same easy dungeon every week?
10/06/2018 07:22 AMPosted by Wildfetus
10/06/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Akston
What happens when you are at a later point in a cycle and no one is doing the lower keys for every single dungeon that you need to get the forced rating to do the higher ones?


1) The same issue could still exist to an extent with IO currently.

2) People still are running Heroics and Normals. I believe with alts players will still be running +2's and +3's.


With raider.io, you can see a person's "main" score if they are on an alt. I definitely take that into account.

But its not all about 2s and 3s. Example scenario that isn't uncommon. You are in a guild raiding heroic or mythic. You have a healer that isn't able to play anymore for whatever situation. So someone re-rolls and you are trying to push through some content to get that person some quick gear. You need to run 10s, but in order to get to a 10, you have to progress up the path for every single dungeon.

And since you will not have the variety of keys at low lvls needed, you are now forced to pug other people's keys. Rather than a guild just doing this quickly, it will now take weeks and weeks to achieve the same result.

With the current system someone has the option of immediately jumping into the high keys should they get invited (through friends, guildies, etc). This system does not give that option.
10/06/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Silverite
I have a feeling your main goal here is to remove RaiderIO from the table.

Even in this scenario it won't go away. RaiderIO goes by what you complete, not what key you put into the pedistal.

I do like the idea of having progression, but what do you do later in the expansion when +10 is the new +0? Achievements? Account wide unlock?

I for one would be absolutely livid if I had to go start at +0 on a late expansion alt through EVERY DUNGEON. It's not practical.

About toxicity? It would go up. You're basically putting raid progression into dungeons. It wouldn't work the way you think it would.


One of my main goals is for Blizzard to have an organic implementaton of raider.io.

Also, it depends what you want on that alt. If you're just trying to get a weekly cache for said alt, push your favorite dungeon to higher keys, and then run said favorite dungeon at a high + once a week.

If you want to specifically target gear, then you'd need to unlock more dungeons to higher keys, which I think is okay.

I don't believe it would add more toxicity. Once you've cleared that +9 Underrot, you're good. You can either run +10 for your weekly, or target gear.

Pugs aren't going to be pushing much further than +10 regardless.
10/06/2018 07:27 AMPosted by Akston
10/06/2018 07:22 AMPosted by Wildfetus
...

1) The same issue could still exist to an extent with IO currently.

2) People still are running Heroics and Normals. I believe with alts players will still be running +2's and +3's.


With raider.io, you can see a person's "main" score if they are on an alt. I definitely take that into account.

But its not all about 2s and 3s. Example scenario that isn't uncommon. You are in a guild raiding heroic or mythic. You have a healer that isn't able to play anymore for whatever situation. So someone re-rolls and you are trying to push through some content to get that person some quick gear. You need to run 10s, but in order to get to a 10, you have to progress up the path for every single dungeon.

And since you will not have the variety of keys at low lvls needed, you are now forced to pug other people's keys. Rather than a guild just doing this quickly, it will now take weeks and weeks to achieve the same result.

With the current system someone has the option of immediately jumping into the high keys should they get invited (through friends, guildies, etc). This system does not give that option.


You don't have to progress up the path for every single dungeon. Every class has a dungeon or two with a good variety of gear. You'd only need to push 1 or 2 dungeons to higher keys. That combined with the fact that +2ing still exists, means that a guild can still effectively gear a reroll
10/06/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Wildfetus
My proposal is to simply remove keystones, which would solve the IO debate as well.

You go to the pedestal, and can select ONE above the highest + you've completed. This applies to your group as well, no one can skip + levels. Someone that has only cleared a +2 freehold can't run a +4 freehold (unless perhaps they +2'd a +2).

You progress through the tiers organically, and if you start a high keystone group, you know everyone in said group has relevant experience.

This would minimize toxicity, remove the need for IO, and add a sense of progression all while keeping the spirit of M+ intact.

Feel free to tell me this ruins the game and M+, just tell me why. :P

Thanks.


Our guild and sister guild run M+ all the time. We have no problem carrying guildies above their gear level, especially on alts, even if it depletes the key. Most of us play for fun, not score, so we love doing stuff like this for our friends.

Your proposed system would prevent that and force us to run them through a bunch of lower keys first, wasting precious time for no discernible reason whatsoever.

You are probably aiming at the pug community, but realize that whatever changes are made affect communities as well, which are often more forgiving and helpful. Honestly, I think many problems would be resolved by establishing a Bnet network, joining a community, or finding a guild that shares your goals for M+.
I'd be in favor of removing the keystone for sure, but your suggestion would not do nearly what you think it would.
The thing I hate about the keystone system is that you can't do the key you want when you want it, but the changes they made recently with deleting keys are honestly outstanding and take a lot of that problem away.
The real positive though, is no matter what score or gear or skillelevel you are or have, you can ALWAYS find a group with your key.

Removing the keystone system would mean people in your situation would have an even harder time finding groups.
10/06/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Wildfetus
10/06/2018 07:27 AMPosted by Akston
...

With raider.io, you can see a person's "main" score if they are on an alt. I definitely take that into account.

But its not all about 2s and 3s. Example scenario that isn't uncommon. You are in a guild raiding heroic or mythic. You have a healer that isn't able to play anymore for whatever situation. So someone re-rolls and you are trying to push through some content to get that person some quick gear. You need to run 10s, but in order to get to a 10, you have to progress up the path for every single dungeon.

And since you will not have the variety of keys at low lvls needed, you are now forced to pug other people's keys. Rather than a guild just doing this quickly, it will now take weeks and weeks to achieve the same result.

With the current system someone has the option of immediately jumping into the high keys should they get invited (through friends, guildies, etc). This system does not give that option.


You don't have to progress up the path for every single dungeon. Every class has a dungeon or two with a good variety of gear. You'd only need to push 1 or 2 dungeons to higher keys. That combined with the fact that +2ing still exists, means that a guild can still effectively gear a reroll


If I want trinkets I need certain dungeons.

If I want weapons I need certain dungeons.

If I want rings I need certain dungeons.

They don't always overlap. Just running 1 or 2 dungeons will not get me the gear needed.

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